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NeW StYlE - WuT u ThInK?

I can't give you any more Karma, madcow, but I will say one thing: We need more people like you out there. Not 'cause everyone else is lacking basic knowledge in terms of training, but people who want to spread the knowledge like a disease so one day people will all be aware of what really works. Then, rather than a bunch of people trying to pursue the all-too-common once a week split, they'll all work towards optimizing something else that's lacking. It's like progress has stagnated, not only for each individual lifting that way, but for all of us on a whole because the world won't get past the old methodology and move on to newer, and greater, things.
 
Me? I'd take out the isolation exercises (barbell curls, weighted dips, skull crushers, heel raises), and if you really must do 20-rep squats, don't do 5 sets of them. I'd do 2x20, if you're insisting on sticking with higher reps.

Any reason for not doing deadlifts?

It looks good, if you plan on coupling it with a kind've deloading, rather than just straight session-to-session lifting. Really, I should've just pointed at the 5x5 routine as MC outlined and said "That," since I see little reason to change what works so wonderfully, especially your first time through.
 
Thanks Tom - I appreciate the compliment. It's kind of funny, I remember when everyone was doing 3-on/1-off splits and some even am/pm workouts - just like the pros. Then one day everyone starts talking about overtraining and we wind up at the point where people are afraid to work a muscle more than once per week and now that becomes a workout the pros use. Curiously between these extremes at no time did I ever see evidence that the BBing community in general ever thought that the major issue at hand was actually volume and not frequency by itself (frequency serves primarily to distribute volume but volume is the real key to overtraining).

psychedout:

Like I said before, it's not essential that frequency be 3 days per week this is just the way a few of the programs we've discussed have been setup. There are dual factor based programs with outrageous frequency out there but for the most part they are highly specialized. I just don't want people to think that they absolutely must adhere to 3x per week as total volume is really the key more than the number of times you are in the gym.

I like the exercise selection for the most part.

For rows you might consider reading this thread it provides 2 techniques (the best one being the post 2nd from the bottom on page 1). Rows are best done dynamically as the back responds like nothing else to dynamic pulling and this is essentially how real rowing is done - not at a constant pace but where the force continues to accelerate the oar through the water continually building speed. At a minimum it's a really good read: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

I don't see any pulling from the floor which is a primary fundemental exercise for the body similar to the squat. Although the deadlift is the most common if you are familiar with clean or snatch grip high pulls (or even pulling to the full extension shrug position) this is a good substitute as the loads are less and it is primarily a concentric only exercise so less breakdown and inroads to recovery while cutting. The olympic lifts and their many variations have a lot of uses and are tremendously effective for building the back/traps.

The reps for hacks and squats look high. This is 100 reps per workout at working weight I'm assuming. I prefer lower reps and I can't remember doing anything in the 20 range outside of rehab (plus I lose count much beyond 6-8 - not entirely a joke it's happened a lot). It's a fairly massive amount of work and the rep range is non-standard, but more importantly it's going to have a major impact on your volume. You might consider just less leg specific work and freeing up some of that recovery for the other exercises. The high reps aren't going to make you grow a ton but the volume is going to have a major impact on your training/recovery which in my mind isn't worth it for maintenance work.

One thing I also like to do is to stick with a certain exercise and improve it. Like in life you can only get good at a limited amount of activities at once. You aren't by any means way out there but I'd rather see MWF being flat bench/overhead/flat bench or flat/incline/flat or any variation. It's not as if you need to neglect incline for a long period - most training blocks don't extend beyond 2-6 weeks at the extremes so the one left out could be subbed back in easily in the next phase. Maybe some light speed/acceleration work on one day and then heavier pressing the other day during the week. Knit-picky stuff but I've seen a lot of success from people handling it like that and just as training muscles more frequently than once per week is a good thing so is performing a focus exercise as progression in many exercises results from training specificity. More something to keep in mind than something that is absolutely essential to implement.

So my last one is probably the biggest. Just like I said about the 5x5 program, the exercise selection, order, sets/reps can be perfect but it won't work well without a systematic planned way of regulating volume/intensity. For an experienced trainee, this is essential, even the biggest factor providing nothing else is hugely out of line. Yet, having seen so many workouts posted on this board over the years (I was a member back in 2001ish and forgot my password) I don't think I've seen more than a handful that have addressed anything beyond the exercise selection, split, and sometimes sets/reps. I know you don't care for the HST program but here more than anywhere else is the key to why it is successful - no magic formulas, just another way of skinning a cat but this part is key (like first having a cat to skin) and they have spent time designing the program to account for it and manage it. I will also just throw out that training to failure is not an option as this is about the best thing I can do to make sure that people won't grow - it's just horrible for results and it really shows it's face for a natural trainee. Below are a few links on dual factor theory. You might also look at the Bill Starr 5x5 program as it's specifically setup as a dual factor program (there's a lot of decent info and links stuffed in that thread too) http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215&page=1&pp=20. I would view your own program in that context, figure out what your max weights would be and work backward over a period of weeks so that you are scaling up the poundages to hit records in weeks 3/4 if you are already conditioned for this workout or 5/6 if you want to start pretty light and gradually work up. That's the loading phase with the real key being the final 2 weeks. After that slash the volume in a major way and perhaps even move to 2x per week frequency for 2 weeks - this is deloading which allows your body to recuperate and gains to accrue. Think of training stimulus as not a single workout but a block of workouts that tells the body that it must adapt because the load is frequent within the time period and accelerating. You are basically working yourself into overtraining and accruing a recovery deficit so when the load is reduced the body is able to catchup and adapt.

Dual Factor Links Here:

This is a good basic explanation provided by one of the finer strength coaches on the planet: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3

This is an article written for Core magazine:
http://www.readthecore.com/200501/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm

This is an explanation that I wrote a while back - kind of redundant with the above but if you like my overly wordy and detailed style of explanation here's another one:
From post #11 - #15 in this thread with #15 being the bulk of it: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372686

EDITS: my spelling sucks
 
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Hey Fellas,

I am currently working the madcow split and it is ridiculous (good). Im stronger than I've ever been in my life, i dont feel bogged down by complicated splits and im gaining like mad (whether you see this as good or bad, i got a few small sretch marks on my arms - this is growth fo sho). Its so simple too, you just need to record your weekly numbers and your set. Throw in some core work once a week if need be and watch the body do its magic. Props to madcow2 for his devotion to guiding people to the light side!
 
psychedout said:
Monday:
Incline Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
Squats 3x5
Skull Crushers 5x5

Wednesday:
Standing Overhead Press 5x5
Weighted Chinups 5x5
Deadlift 5x3 or 5x5
Barbell Curl 5x5
Standing or Seated Calve Raise 5x10-15

Friday:
Flat Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
Sqauts 3x3
Weighted Dip 5x5

Okay revisions made. ^^Here is how it looks now.
 
gjohnson5 said:
K to you
What are you stats?

6'3" about mid-250s but I like to target 240 range in shape as I'm older and have no reason to weight more (keeping LBM off is more of an issue than gaining it these days). Getting over a torn labrum, moderate upperback injury, and shredded ankle due to traumatic inversion from slipping down the stairs - all back to back over the past 2 years (none WL caused). I can now bench without pain, pull from the floor and row without pain, but inflexibility in my ankle has got my squat rotating so that needs to be fixed. I probably haven't trained seriously in over 5 years due to family/work/grad school. This will likely not change as I have major work committments coming up and hopefully will be starting a business if I can get funding together. At this point I'm happy to be able to lift without pain and enjoy myself in the gym. For the past year or so I'd watch kids lifting in the gym, shitty technique and all, and be so jealous that they could do all that without pain. Now I can finally lift again and I'm happy just for that. Not very inspriational but I've made peace with the situation (this was hard) and really enjoy myself despite some limitations that I'm still working through.
 
psychedout said:
Okay revisions made. ^^Here is how it looks now.
I like it better but I only see the change to squats. You could also take the arm work and do higher reps like 3x8-10 if you wanted, it's fluff for the most part and IMO does more to maximize the current size of the arm than drive long term progress of arm development (usually the compound lifts handle this). That pattern is still incline/military/flat M/W/F and there's no account for how volume/intensity will be utilized - and in all honesty, that's the major driver of success.

Before you start, you want to have a weight progression planned out as well as a method of backing-off/deloading to recovery before you hit it again. As a rule athletes can handle heavy concentrated loading for 1-3 weeks. Most are around 10-14 days. There are world level lifters who can't load for 3 weeks so it's not a contest but more determining how your body works best. So if you did 4-6 weeks the first series would be weight progression and acclimation (if using 6 weeks start light) while the final 2 would be about as heavy as you can manage or what I term 'records' should you have a relevant previous best (alternatively you can test the lifts beforehand to determine the range but if this workout/exercises are new you might find them move up by the time you get there).
 
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