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My personal physical fitness war against HIV/AIDS: The War.

alanchiras

Plat Hero
Platinum
I'd like to split this post in two section. First, i'm going to lay out my current freeweight program that i've been using for the past half year. It comes mostly from the book 'Built to Survive' the first and primary reference for weight training for PWA's as well as a great reference for AS and Test use for PWA's that would be using a legit set of doctors scripts to obtain the LBM drugs. I'm shortly going to change my workout plan to a more intensive one - the one in the e-book The Bodybuilding Truth by George Montana. I feel that my current workout routine does not push me as hard as I would like to be pushed, and that's why the change. In the second secion, i'll be going over ALL of the drugs i'm taking for a variet of reasons and ask for some input on them. Realise(sp) that it took a long time to convince my HIV doctor to put me on LBM builing meds so keep that in mind. Let's start!

My current almost all freeweight workout routine:

Monday
Barbell Bench Press
12/10 8/15 6/20
(meaning 12 reps with a additional 10 lbs onto a 45lb bar, then 8 reps with 15 added lbs, etc.)
Dumbbell Shoulder Press
12/12 8/15 6/20
Dumbbell Row
12/12 8/15 6/20
Cable Pushdown
12/80 8/90 6/100

Wendensday
Cable Close Grip Pulldown
12/110 8/120 6/130
Barbell Preacher (e/z) Curl
12/10 8/20 6/25
Weighted Incline Crunch
12/0 8/0 6/0

Friday
Barbell Squat(my favorite exersice)
12/50 8/70 6/100
Lever Lying Leg Curl (Nautilus)
12/95 8/105 6/115
Sled 45 Degree Calf Raise (another favorite)
12/50 8/70 6/100

OK? And now to my questions about this routine.

1. I can do most of these exersies with a moderate level of difficulity at the current amounts of weights (with good form.) When should I know when I should raise the weight amounts, and when should I know when it is enought? Should I be struggling to make the last rep of my last set to know that i'm at the right weight or what???

2. I'm using a slightly incline bench to do my Chrunchs. To go up on this exercise, should i first:
A. Raise the incline of the board by a notch
B. Increase the number of crunchs I am currently doing or
C. Grasp a plate in my hands held to my chest while doing them.

3. I seem to spend no longer than about a half hour in the freeweight area doing my routine - am I not pushing myself enought?

And now, my drug regiem(sp?)

For antiretorvirals, I am taking the following: Combivir as AZT & 3TC (YES, I know AZT is poison, but it works for me.) Sustiva, and Viread. I take Effoxor ex for depression and will be soon changing it to Mirtazapine. Prochorperazine for nausea, Trazdone for sleep, and Avandia for appitiate.
For AS, I am on Deca(now known by it's generic name - Nandrolone Decanoate 200MG 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Also, d-bol 20 MG and 10 Grams of Androgel.
It should be know that I was previously on Oxandrin but had liver failure on it and had to stop taking it.

My question to all of you is do you thing the type and amount of AS and Test is too little, just right, or too much.

Understand that PWA's fight to gain as much LBM as possible for a specific reason. AIDS waisting sydrone attacts muscle and not fat before it goes after your vital organs, so having as much LBM as possible is like saving for a rainy day - only in our case it's our lives that are in the balance. Thanks in advance for your thoughtful replys.
 
It appears that I may have made a gross mistake in my use of supplements. After my six weeks on AS, I went into my two week phase of washout while taking mys3elf off of two things that I now have second thoughts of. I have stopped taking two 1-AD a day and six 700mg caps of creatine. Should I have stopped taking either one of these during my break?
 
1-Always strive to add an extra rep or two at the current weights you are pushing,or to add say,an additional 2.5 lbs to each side as often as possible.Your primary goal should be to get stronger.Remember,a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle.This equates to overall LBM.
Yes,the last rep or two should be very difficult.If it's not,it is time to up the weight slightly.

2-Any of those techniques will add additional stress,but if your primary goal is mass,then adding the plate in will be the most effective towards thicking up the abdominal muscle wall.

3-As long as you are reaching failure at the end of each rep session,then time has no bearing.You do not grow while you lift,but rather in the hours afterward,while your muscles are repairing themselves.You have to really stay focused and eat a lot of protein in the aftermath of your training sessions,this will be crucial to your progression.Try to be feeding in protein every 3-4 hours.I can not stress how important this will be.

As to your drug regimen,the deca/d-bol combination is a very good one.It would be enhanced even greater by the addition of 200mgs/week of IM testosterone if you can eventually swing that.If you start attenuating to that regimen,then the dosages can be bumped up slightly,as they are quite low,but that's okay in the beginning,as you are testing your tolerance to them.

I would continue to take creatine,as it will help keep your cells full of ATP,and make them consistently fuller.You might also consider tossing in some glutamine peptides,as they go a long way toward anti-catabolism/repair,particularly when immune system is compromised.
 
Alan: Got you PM.

First, lt me say that no routine is the "perfect" way to train at the exclusion of all others. I make a point of that in the book. In regard to how intensely you tran, that's too subjective to answer without actually seeing you work out. The basic rule of thumb is to push hard, but not to the point where every set is all out failure. Train -- don't strain.

Regarding drugs, I would strongly advise against using any orals other than low dose anavar. 100 mgs of test and 100 mgs of primo a week sould be plenty. And of course, all the necessary supplements and a solid high protein diet are a must.

Best,

Nelson (not George) : )
 
Hi Alanchiras,
I wasn't going to comment on this board again but I did get your email so I will respond. You have raised a LOT of issues and I am not sure how to cover them all in this limited amount of space as they are all far more complicated than I think most are aware of so there is nothing straightforward about what you are asking about. Even how to workout with resistance weights is the subject of books, of and by itself, and then when complicated with the issues of HIV disease, fatigue issues related to HIV, metabolic issues caused by HIV and the drugs used to treat HIV not to mention side effects, toxicities, and dosing/eating/sleeping schedules, nutritional issues specific to HIV, recovery rates from exercise based on individual factors, HIV induced factors, age and other, and then you add AAS to the mix-well you get the idea. So even this is hard for me to answer with a one size fits all fix since there isn't one. Partly, you have to get VERY tuned into your body and learn what works for you, remembering that most, but not all things will work to some degree for a little while and then you'll need to change your approach, just like with people that are HIV negative and how they need to vary their resistance training to continue to make progress. In this one fact, things are the same but from here they begin to diverge in approach. I think Nelson Vergel along with Michael Mooney have done a great service to the community by putting forth the whole AAS and wasting discussion and by publishing "built to survive" to give some very basic information. Most people, unfortunately, are ignorant of even the most basic of issues so to get them even to point A is really an accomplishment. Also, you can't very well talk about points C, D, and E when your audience has yet to even get to point A either. Realize too, that you can only put so much into print and it is unrealistic that the "whole" story can be put into print because of legalities and liabilies. But that is the world we live in unfortunately. Not all speech is "free." For example, I seriously doubt that I could publish a book on what I know about fina, testosterone, nandrolone decanoate, serostim, Oxandrin, KS, HIV, hormonal resistance, wasting, and how to "put it together" without serious investigation and ramifications from John Ashcroft and his lieutenants at the so called "Department of Justice." Of course there is also the fine line referred to as "practicing medicine without a medical license" as I am NOT a medical doctor. The upside is that the book is probably fairly good for most people with HIV, many of whom can barely muster the energy for a "basic" workout let alone a fairly "hardcore" bodybuilding workout--frankly, even a little bit is LIGHT YEARS beyond not working out at all with HIV disease. And you have to learn how much you are capable of doing in YOUR circumstances and deal with it accordingly as insufficient rest/recovery and overtraining have specific and very negative implications with HIV disease. This, however, does not mean that you should not workout very very hard but you have to take it in perspective. But in the end, you just need to jump in and just "do it" and figure it out as you go rather than sit around contemplating your navel and pondering the "right" answer to come along. In the end, the answers will mostly come with experience and comparing notes with others that have "succeeded" and then taking from it what you can use. It also depends on what your specific short term and longer term goals are as well.

Just to give you a little background on me, I have lifted weights for 29 years, competed in intercollegiate sports in college and after, including rowing, bicycle racing on the velodrome (banked bicycle track) and criteriums and also was trained by a pro fighter in kickboxing. I have served two times around in the military and have two honorable discharges. I was raised blue collar but managed to go to an "Ivy League" University back east during my undergraduate education and paid for my own college without help from family. I have lived with HIV for 19 years since 1984, survived Kaposi's Sarcoma (cancer), was diagnosed with full blown AIDS in 1993, have been told I would not survive more times than I care to count and have even survived high viral loads exceeding 3 million virons per cc of blood that left immunologists asking me, "why are you still alive?" I still work full time and work out a LOT and overall feel I have a pretty decent life and certainly have had an incredibly interesting and productive life inspite of all that has been thrown in my direction. I have also been one of those "very difficult and argumentative patients" that doctors usually dislike but statistically are the ones that seem more likely to survive long term HIV because I take very proactive action and interest in my health at all times. I have fired MANY HIV doctors and am very selective as to whom I will seek advice and scrips from. I have never been afraid to refuse treatment, based on likelihood of treatment actually succeeding vs quality of life issues, even when told that refusing treatment would result in my death. I always look for the logic behind the theory and to see if the pathways and mode of effect seem plausible and reasonable and if the outcome is worth the suffering to get there or if the treatment may actually poison your system or "do you in" even before the problem that you are supposedly trying to "fix" does. I don't take anything at face value but tend to pull it all apart and consider many additional options as well even when most people don't see that other options may even exist. But that is a whole book that could be written and in retrospect, my doctors felt that I ended up calling mostly all the right shots at the time when information was very limited and treatments were nonexistent to very new even though many of the decisions that I made flew in the face of medical thinking at THAT time.

I have followed this thing VERY closely for a VERY long time. It helps that I have a degree in science and I work in a very senior scientific capacity in a non medical field. However, there are many transferable skills from one branch of science to another that are very helpful. Also, I am somewhat of an "extremist" desiring to carry an extremely large amount of buffer lean mass because I am well aware of just how much lean mass I can loose when I get seriously "knocked down" by illness and how hard I have to work for every pound of it, trying to offset the extreme catabolic nature of HIV itself plus the additional problems caused by the HIV medications themselves. So this has always worked for me. Currently, I am 5'11.5" tall, lean and vascular--always in single digits in terms of body fat and around 250 lbs. I am constantly being asked what "show" I am getting ready for as I am so lean all the time. I also carry lots of extra lean mass for the obvious reason that many on this board are interested in as well. So that should give you some idea.

One thing to consider is that not everything that works for me will work for you and vice versa. This seems particularly true with hiv. There are so MANY variables, without a full assessment and background of your situation, it is really hard for me to comment so I will have to go on some basic "food for thought" stuff.

You are correct about lean body mass being "money in the bank" for a rainy day. This is not only one of the fundimental keys for living with this disease long term, but it is also key to having a decent quality of life with HIV. 97% of ALL HIV docs fail to grasp this single point alone. Just keeping viral load under control will NOT ensure your longevity or quality of life. In fact, this disease WILL bite you in the ass when you least expect it if you are so complacent to think that just because your viral load is non detect, you are "OK." You can COUNT on it. Oh, and by the way, a recent study by the American Medical Association (AMA) revealed that fully 25% of all so called HIV practitioners failed to meet even the most basic of published and accepted AMA Guidelines for treatment of HIV disease. Something to think about.

There are also MANY other issues, aside from lean body mass, not well understood. For example, very early on in HIV disease, the digestive tract becomes one of the early casualties. The ability to absorb fat diminishes and the ability to metabolize fat also seems to disappear--this is part of the reason that while certain hiv drugs may cause programmed cellular death of subcutaneous fat cells, the fat that was formerly contained within them still has to go somewhere and gets redistributed rather than metabolized, i.e. part of the lipodystrophy problem--although the actual mechanism for this is not quite this straight forward but will suffice for this discussion. Other ramifications are that for most people with HIV, they can eat a fair amount of fat and probably not absorb hardly ANY of it. This has implications for nutritional deficiencies regarding all of the fat soluble vitamins. Additionally, if you eat too much fat, you will invariably suffer serious gas/bloat and diarhea for the very reason that your system can not process it or absorb it very well or at all so thinking that you now have a fee ticket to eat all the Haagen Daaz that you can stand will leave you with belly cramps and bloat and lots and lots of gas. So you will still need to control fat intake depending on what your system will tolerate which is probably not a whole lot of it.

To be honest, most docs are myopic and only concern themselves with viral loads (mine have been undectectable now for more than seven years) and CD4 counts and a very few other parameters. Most miss the very essence of HIV which is WASTING and also miss the problems that arise relative to screwed up lipids profiles, most notably cholesterol (HDL tends to be very low and LOW total cholesterol is a HALLMARK of the disease) and tryglicerides (which tend to be very high and this also has some implications with lipodystrophy issues). Unfortunately, even if your total cholesterol is low as mine is being around 133 total most of the time, you may still need to be on Lipitor or some other cholesterol controlling medication as I do because my HDL has always sucked (long before I ever did any AAS either) and therefore I run 3 times the risk factor for heart disease without it being controlled strictly. Additionally, none of the lipid controlling medications will control your triglycerides well, but fortunately cold water fish oil seems to take care of this problem quite well and there is even medical literature that supports it (although I have seen enough lab results that I am fairly well convinced). Prescription Carnitor is also a good option to control lipids, and yes you can probably get your insurance to pay up to 3000 mg/day because it also controls cholesterol (although it seems to have even greater value in lipodystrophy issues as well but that isn't what they'll prescribe it for). Over the counter Carnitine has mostly been shown by lab tests to contain little to none of the advertised amount so I wouldn't waste my money or time with them. Go for the pharmaceutical stuff. The other glaring problem that physicians won't address seem to be testosterone replacement therapy. It has been my experience that while the number willing to consider it is improving, it is still probably only limited to the top 1-3% of HIV practitioners. That is aside from being willing to address the medibolic wasting issues that certain AAS seem to be able to address.

Even less is known about the hormonal resistence issues also common to many people with HIV but I along with some microbiologist friends of mine suspect that it has something to do with the "DNA" intereference activity of the NRTI's which make up the backbone of treatment for most all protocols for treating HIV disease. Remember, AZT for example is considered a "DNA Terminator" and it the very fact that it attaches to the end of your DNA strands that is the essence of its anti retro viral effect. This is a characteristic of the whole class, by the way and is not just limited to AZT. The impact of hormonal resistance is that you may find that "normal" testosterone doses may not actually work for you and that higher doses may be needed to get "normal" results, let alone supraphysiological effects (you'll be hard pressed to find ANY doctor that will prescribe supraphysiological doses however, let alone higher than normal even if you have evidence of hormonal resistance). As a ball park, testosterone replacement is given usually in dosages of 100-200 mg every one or two weeks. This is "industry standard" for the few that will even consider prescribing it. In reality, you may find that you do a lot better at 400 mg per week which would be considered on the high end of what is done but some people are, in fact, prescribed this amount. So that should give you some idea. Mostly it is done based on blood tests and clinical observations, i.e. if you show the symptoms of "low testosterone" even though your blood levels show you to be in the normal range, even at the nader, than the physician has the leeway to prescribe more based on his observations/professional medical opinion and that is only possible with VERY enlightened doctors. Most won't even consider it. They will look at blood test results for total and free testosterone ONLY if even that much.

Additionally, it was first denied by the medical and pharmaceutical communtiy but now it is known by them that some HIV drugs, crixivan in particular actually shut down testosterone production. The mechanism is still not known but this has been documented quite clearly in clinical and other settings. For a whole host of other reasons, sooner or later, most people with hiv disease find their testosterone production either shuts down completely or markedly. Once this happens, it normally does not resume no matter how well the virus and disease seem to be under control and at this point, replacement therapy is indicated. Unfortunately most HIV docs are NOT willing to even test for or discuss this issue as it is still somewhat taboo in the medical community and there is a large concern about giving people with HIV testosterone which can encourage them to go out and have sex. That is the weird paradox. However, without testosterone, a male with hiv WILL lose lean body mass and experience wasting even if they have a non dectable viral load over time. It is also a medical fact that once a person looses fifty percent of their "baseline" lean body mass, they will die without any other causes being present. Wasting is one of the top reasons for death with HIV even to this day. Also, it is entirely possible to experience wasting for years and not change body weight as you change body "compostion" based on losing muscle and organ tissue and replacement with fat. The fifty percent rule still applies as only LEAN metabolic body mass matters. The amount you can loose is also less than you may think because water constitutes 50-55% of your TOTAL body weight and lean mass is a percentage of that. Remember also that your skeleton is also "lean mass" but not metabolic mass and you also have to calculate your fat mass based on your body compostion to accurately track this.

You should also be aware that you mentioned that you are on Sustiva AND an anti-depressant. Sustiva is KNOWN to cause severe clinical depression in HIV patients and has resulted in numerous people committing suicide. I know of several cases specfically. Why is your doc maintaining you on this drug if you have symptoms of depression and from the sound of your medications and proposed changes, your depression remains unresolved by having you on an antidepressant? It would be far easier to change you to Viramune and acclimate you to it then keep you on Sustiva. The Viramune is in the same class and if acclimated properly, you should be able to avoid the sometimes fatal Stevens-Johnson symdrome that MAY appear with it (the whole body skin rash which marks the severe allergic reaction that some have to it). Some docs actually use prednisone for a month to suppress your tendency towards allergic reactions while increasing the dose from half dose for two weeks to full dose for two weeks and then withdrawal from prednisone. Just a thought. Other HIV drugs have also been shown to cause/contribute to depression as well. Been there done that too.

Now for the down and dirty. I don't know enough about your experience, length of time weight training, use of supplements, etc. However, I would break your workout up differently and do all back and biceps on the same day instead of having dumbbell row on the same day you do bench or push downs or dumbbell shoulder presses (chest/triceps/shoulders) since you obviously are doing a "split" along the lines of chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday, back/biceps/abs on Wednesday and legs on Friday. I also don't know how long you have been doing this specific routine.

As for question 1: All sets go to failure except warm up sets. Failure being defined as that point where you can no longer lift the weight "in good form"...in other words, you start cheating to finish the rep. Of course this is simplistic because there are many techniques to push failure on out to make it tougher.

As for question 2: All three options will work. None is better or worse than another just different. You should always be trying to make thing "different" to vary your workouts rather than do exactly the same rote thing each time you are in the gym.

As for question 3: Depends on how "you feel"... a half an hour is plenty for some not enough for others. It also depends on how you train and your goals so it MAY be enough but might not be.

As for your meds question: I don't see anything in there to treat lipid problems...have you had this thoroughly broken down, not just total cholesterol? Include a test for tryglycerides. It is hard to imagine that you do not have lipid problems with some of the drugs you are on. As for Sustiva, I discussed above already--try Viramune, may help alleviate your depression which is likely a result or contributed to by Sustiva. I also don't see blood pressure medication how is yours? I also don't see testosterone. Are you on nandrolone decanoate and NOT testosterone replacement? have your free and total testosterone levels been checked? 200 mg deca/week is ok but you may want to consider something more like 10-12 weeks on and 8 weeks off. Also all cycles should stack ON TOP OF testosterone and in case of HIV, it is likely that you should permanently be on replacement levels and cycle on/off above theraputic levels treating the replacement as your "normal" testosterone since most people with HIV produce little or none and I suspect yours would be low anyway because you are doing AAS. By the way, if your doctor THINKS that Androgel is acceptable for testosterone replacement, I have seen MANY lab tests that say otherwise. The amount absorbed through the skin is so small for most people as to be virtually worthless. Use parenteral only (injectible testosterone) for replacement. Has your doc checked the results of Androgel with you to see if it even makes your blood levels come into the normal range? And low normal does NOT cut it with HIV disease. Why doesn't your doc prescribe oxandrin at 20 mg/day instead of you having to buy dbol as I KNOW he doesn't prescribe THAT. Might save you some money and it would be legal as it is approved at that dosage for anti wasting therapy. You could then get a standing scrip and "cycle" eventually working up to 40 mg/day for eight or ten weeks on and eight or ten weeks off (by using it half the time but filling the scrip EVERY MONTH, you can save up during your off cycle to get enough for you cycle--a doc can not precribe it in a "cyclical way" as it then "appears" to the state medical licensing board to "NOT BE prescribed theraputically so he/she is better off writing a standing scrip for it just for your information.).

So hope that helps. It is a lot to digest.
 
Things that have been proven to work on HIV patients.


Nandrolone, oxandrolone, any test, and primo.

All of these 4 AAS do not negatively affect the immune system.

The rest depress it somewhat. Something you simply don't want with HIV.

Possible combination.(Never going over 450mg total AAS/week)

1. 30mg BTG/day + 200mg Test/week

2. 200mg Deca/week + 200mg test/week

3. 300mg Primo/week + 20mg BTG/day

You can play around with the numbers and AAS if you want.

But the most commonly used stack is the BTG + Test one.

Fonz
 
Hi Alanchiras,
I just wanted to reiterate that you should have your doc check your total AND free testosterone levels, especially the NADIR (time when levels would be expected to be at the lowest point such as just BEFORE readministering testosterone for replacement therapy). He should also check your LH and FSH levels--although you will likely have to be come back off AAS for quite some time for this to be very accurate as your HPTA will have to "renormalize" in order to get accurate information as to its status. However, your situation may be such that coming off of AAS may NOT a good idea, in which case, you will have to go through the "trial and error" route followed up by bloodwork to try to determine what works best for you. This is something you need to thoroughly discuss with your physician. Since your physician has you on Androgel, I am making the ASSUMPTION that your testosterone production is BELOW the parameters of what is considered the low end of "normal" or that your testosterone production is completely shut down by HIV.

As I mentioned, Androgel is fairly useless for testosterone REPLACEMENT therapy in HIV patients as a VERY LARGE number of HIV patients produce little testosterone of their own. Depending on the reason(s) that testosterone production is low CAN affect how it should be approached.

For example, if testosterone is low, then your physician should also check your LH and FSH levels, if the levels of LH and FSH are also low, then it is POSSIBLE, but necessarily the case, that the Leydig cells in the testes are not the problem and the problem lies further back in the HPTA axis since these hormones give the "signals" to the testes to produce testosterone. So it is possible that "normal" blood testosterone levels can be achieved by administration of HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin not to be confused with Human Growth Hormone--two entirely different things) alone WITHOUT the administration of testosterone at all and at least the testosterone would be your own, not a synthetic version bound to an ester. This is usually administered by injection of HCG one to three times per week depending on dosage and how "even" your physician believes that it is appropriate or reasonable to maintain levels of testosterone production. This is best determined by "trial and error" using lower doses and checking with follow up blood work to see if the desired result has been achieved. Results shoud always be checked at the anticipated "NADIR" for testosterone levels. If levels of testosterone are not high enough, increase the dosage and repeat until you achieve "normal" blood levels of testosterone AND no longer exhibit clinical signs of low testosterone (i.e. depression, fatigue, lethargy, moodiness, headaches, lack of focus, etc.). If you are unable to achieve "normal" testosterone levels by this method, see the "third possibility" (two paragraphs below) as it is likely that both the HPTA is HIV damaged AND the Testes are HIV damaged as well.

The second possibility is that if your tests for LH and FSH show that you are producing high levels of LH and FSH but your testosterone production remains low, then the problem clearly lies in the testes and injectable testosterone is your only realistic solution. Again, follow up blood tests, drawn at the NADIR will be required to determine the appropriate dosage along with clinical observations regarding sypmtoms of low testosterone by your physician. HCG will NOT work in this case. Androgel will NOT be adequate in this situation either. Androgel only seems to work somewhat in cases where production is in the normal range but the patient may still be exhibiting symptoms of low testosterone anyway. Androgel will only raise blood testosterone levels by a small amount in spite of the fact that doctors will argue that it contains 5 whole grams of testosterone per each packet. Unfortunately, hardly ANY of this will be absorbed through the skin. Accordingly, the amount that is absorbed is so small that it does not appear to depress whatever testosterone production that is already occurring making it fine for someone that only needs to raise levels a small amount but is already in the "normal" range. The result is barely perceptable, typically, at least from a clinical perspective, however.

A third possibility, is that there is some damage to both the HPTA axis due to HIV and the anti HIV meds as well as HIV damage to the Leydig cells in the testes. In this case, you probably have little choice but to go for injectable testosterone. You may want to add HCG shots as well to help "even out" levels as it will still cause some production to occur in the Leydig Cells (depending on the degree of damage) but probably not enough as in this scenario, they are already damaged. So this is something to discuss and get tested by your doc to see what is best for you.

I have yet to see a single case where anyone with HIV and testosterone below the normal range got satisfactory results with Androgel. Until you get your hormone balance and replacement therapy worked out and at least close to reasonably normal, let alone more than, you will have a lot of difficulty making any progress in the lean mass department. Remember, you have to not only get to "normal" effectiveness of your replacement therapy but you also need to work against a very catabolic/wasting inducing disease. You absolutely need to have proper replacement therapy for testosterone as the cornerstone of your LBM and anti wasting treatment.

As for the Nandrolone Decanoate ("Deca"), it has a very important benefit to counteract one of the very insidious side effects of the AZT which you are on. Granted, AZT is no longer given at the high levels of the past that caused such severe suppression of the bone marrow as to warrant surgical removal of the spleen and other "atrocities" to try to keep the resulting anemia from becoming life threatening. However, nonetheless, AZT is notoriously suppressive of bone marrow. It will tend to cause low white blood cells counts, low red blood cell counts, low neutriphill counts, low platelet counts (aspirin, btw, is contraindicated with AZT because the combination has a synergistic effect and has caused death in a number of HIV patients), etc. Deca, on the other hand, works extremely well in driving production of all of the above by the bone marrow so it counteracts this particular "toxic" effect of AZT extremely well. This is probably one of its best uses in HIV to be honest and is nothing to be sneered at. It really does help in a big way and this effect is not limited to AZT alone but to all the other HIV medications that have anemia as a listed side effect or cause bone marrow suppression in one form or another. In fact, one of the labeled uses of Deca is in treating certain types of anemia. From personal observation and experience, I have not seen ANY detrimental side effects of deca at a weekly dose of 200 mg/week even if used very long term and 200 mg/week is considered a "standard" dosage for people with HIV among physicians enlightened enough to prescribe it when appropriate. This dosage seems to work very well from what I have seen and higher dosages like 300 mg/week or 400 mg/week don't seem to yield much additional benefit in terms of driving bone marrow production or increeasing LBM with people with HIV disease. But of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Remember, with HIV there are specific "other" considerations that do not apply to people that are HIV negative concerning AAS. For example, "restarting" the HPTA, once damaged and shut in by HIV disease is not an option as the damage is apparently not reversible. I have yet to see a single case where normal function was restored "naturally" or by any means tried by physicians for this purpose in cases where HPTA function and/or the Leydig Cells in the testes were damaged from HIV--no matter how long the viral load was nondetect or how much other clinical parameters improved with long term treatment. So shutting in your HPTA by AAS is not a primary consideration in cases where it already has been disease damaged anyway. Even long term control of viral load to undetectable levels does not necessarily PREVENT damage to the HPTA or the Leydig Cells in the testes by HIV from happening anyway. In fact, it is quite common to eventually occur with longevity of infection whether the viral load is under control or not. As I mentioned, it is also possible that the damage MAY also be caused by toxicities from the drugs themselves or from other mechanisms. So considering this, I would not be terribly concerned about "cycling" Deca for the "normal reasons" that you may cycle AAS other than it is probably a good idea to give your body a rest periodically from it from time to time.

I do think it encouraging that your physician put you on the Deca. That means he/she trusts you to properly administer self injectible medications. Accordingly, he/she should not have a problem with switching you to injectible testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate (there is essentially no difference between these medications in terms of efficacy for testosterone replacement purposes so I wouldn't be concerned at all as to which you are receiving). A simple blood test will no doubt show that the Androgel is not sufficient. Also your depression, in addition to likely being aggravated by Sustiva, could also be a "clinical indication" of low testosterone even if your levels are in the low "normal" range. So something else to consider and discuss with your physician. If you are experiencing periodic headaches, fatique, lethargy and any of the other "symptoms" of low testosterone, this may be exactly what is wrong but quite likely there could also be multiple causes as well since depression can also cause many of these "symptoms" as well. Remember though, testosterone has been administered for treatment of depression and was considered an "accepted practice" at one time in the past as well.

So again, this ran MUCH longer than I had intended but like I said, HIV, working out, LBM and appropriate treatments are VERY complicated issues. However, this is about as simple as I can explain it regarding "Basic Testosterone Replacement Therapy for HIV 101" and "HIV and Deca 101" as well. So I hope this is helpful although, once again, it is a lot to digest.
 
Good morning gentlemen.
I have waited for several days to respond to this thread that I have started for two reasons.
1. I wanted to encourage debate about the subjects I was bring up without influencing any of the debate, and
2. I have not done well with the forced change in psych meds and am currently mentally unstable and have been trying my best to take it easy for a while <hangs head in private shame>.

I wish to thank each and very one of you for your current and possible future contributions to this important thread. My next appointment with my HIV and Cancer doc who gives me my AS and Test therapy is this coming Tuesday. I am HONORED that the world famous Dr. Bruce Dezube of Beth Israel Hospital in Boston would spend his spare time seeing me as his patient. He literally saved my life when my Karposi's Sarcoma lesion were growing and appearing on both the outside and inside of me at the rate of one per day for several months. I had a port installed inside of me for chemotherapy and received many types of treatment, none of which worked. He then, as a last chance, put me into a clinical trial for use of a hyper dose of vitamin A (retin-A) for treatment of my KS. It was brutal - I suffered greatly for several months of therapy. I lost all of the hair on my body, suffered from massive headaches, and had bone dry skin over my entire body. But, somehow, the treatment worked and my life was saved. You can read about this in greater detail in my book 'The Book of Hope' published by Beth Israel Hospital in Boston, Ma. He now over-rules my primary physician who would not give me any immune restoration medication, and gives me my AS and Test treatments. I will be copying this thread and mailing this to him to read this weekend and to follow up on this on Tuesday. I hope to replace the Androgel with at the very least Testem if not injectable Test. I will also ask him about having my try Carintor. When I am feeling emotionally better - enough that I am going back to the gym again, I will respond to everybody's posts on here. Please forgive me that I cannot do so now. Thank you all.
 
Fonz said:
Things that have been proven to work on HIV patients.


Nandrolone, oxandrolone, any test, and primo.

All of these 4 AAS do not negatively affect the immune system.

The rest depress it somewhat. Something you simply don't want with HIV.

Possible combination.(Never going over 450mg total AAS/week)

1. 30mg BTG/day + 200mg Test/week

2. 200mg Deca/week + 200mg test/week

3. 300mg Primo/week + 20mg BTG/day

You can play around with the numbers and AAS if you want.

But the most commonly used stack is the BTG + Test one.

Fonz

Sounds good to me. Here in Canada, the most common cocktail given to AIDS/HIV patient is Deca 200mg and test 100mg/week (in fact, one injection every two weeks). Oxandrin is not approved and only given as part of experimental treatments. Docs here are not crazy about this, same with anadrol (only prescribed to anemia patients).

The option no2 makes the most sense to me. SInce you had liver failure I would stay away from 17aa and Primo is hard to get these days, not to mention its price, while you can have your deca paid by your insurance (I assume).
 
Hi Alanchiras,
I just read your morning post including the part about the depression. I had pretty much surmised that your anti-depressants were not working for you from what you said in your original post. The truth is that none of them probably will work well enough to overcome the depression inducing side effects of Sustiva if you are one of the many that are affected by this medication in this way. Sustiva is the most potent psychiatrically interactive of ALL of the HIV medications BY FAR and is contraindicated for people with known depression or those that exhibit depression while on it. In fact, the labeling even indicates that you should tell your physician IMMEDIATELY IF YOU SHOW SIGNS OF SORROW OR HOPELESSNESS. Yes they put it in upper case because it is THAT serious. You can check the package insert for yourself if you don't believe me. Many suicides have been directly attributed to this drug for this reason. I know from personal experience that the only way to resolve the depression to any significant degree is removal from Sustiva. I STRONGLY advise you to find an alternative and I can NOT EMPHASIZE this any more than this. That is why I suggested Viramune, since it is in the same class as Sustiva. Another possible choice would be Delavardine which is also in the same class. Partly this depends on your viral resistance pattern although just because a test says a drug won't work, doesn't mean that actually is the case. Only use genotype and phenotype resistance tests as VERY CRUDE gestimates. I have seen many instances were the tests indicated viral resistance but due to lack of available options and patient was put on a drug(s) that they supposedly had viral resistance to and the drugs worked anyway. So something to keep in mind. Not all tests are perfect. The real world often CAN be quite different than what the tests predict. If you want to know the contact information of a physician that routinely uses the "acclimation" method for patients to Viramune, I will be willing to send it to you by private email. He is located in Chicago and has a large HIV practice in that city. Using his method, he has never had a single case of the skin rash or allergic reaction that is the basis of the black box warning with Viramune and he told me that he had done hundreds of these at THAT time (which was several years ago). I was acclimated to Viramune using this method also and did not have any problems whatsoever. The BIG concern that most physicians will have is "prednisone?"--and then the knee jerk "it is immunosuppressive!" That IS exactly the point. It is used in a dosage to somewhat and temporarily suppress your system for a month while you are acclimated to the new HIV drug so that you don't develop an allergic reaction to it. I was a little leary of it too when I first heard of it years several years ago but have to admit, it worked like a charm and there were apparently no other "bad" effects from it.

Also, why does your physician have you on four anti-retrovirals, three nukes (NRTI's although the method of Viread is very slightly different from the others as it is technically a "nucleotide" rather than "nucleoside" drug), AZT, 3TC AND Viread as well as Sustiva (NNRTI)? Is this a form of "salvage therapy?" If this is first line therapy, one of the drugs should probably be removed or replaced with another being removed, depending on the specifics of your situation. You should seriously discuss this with your physician as more is not necessarily better but will increase toxicities significantly. You are only looking to control the virus, these drugs will NOT eradicate it from your system. That is a known fact.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Androgel is fairly useless for testosterone REPLACEMENT therapy in HIV patients. To be honest, Testoderm also has been shown to be totally inaffective and is considered a joke by many in terms of adequacy for hormonal replacement in HIV positive patients. I believe that this has actually been demonstrated in studies outside of clinical practice. It works even less well than Androgel. If you are hypogonadal because of HIV, the only realistic method of testosterone replacement that will work is by injection, whether it is a combination of HCG and Testosterone or just HCG or just testosterone, depending on the reasons. In all likelihood, with HIV disease, there is damage to both the HPTA AND the Testes so you most likely will need some sort of injectible testosterone as part or all of your hormonal replacement therapy.

One other thing, since your physician is not familiar with administering or prescribing androgens, just be advised that your hematocrit will likely end up around 52-55 on your lab tests which will make your physician concerned that your blood is becoming "too thick." He will automatically want to pull you off of them out of concern that the hematocrit will go higher and could cause blood clots, etc. However, it will typically not go any higher even if you were to do MUCH higher doses than what your physician will ever prescribe for you. There appears to be a natural limit to it actually. A lab result of 52-55 for Hematocrit is probably ok over the long haul provided you have your lipids under control so you aren’t slowly "sludging up" your arteries, etc. over time.

So, the long and the short of it:

First, GET OFF OF THE SUSTIVA and on to some other HIV drug cocktail regimine ASAP! You may wish to continue on with the anti-depressants as some of the brain chemistry issues associated with Sustiva may not go away for quite some time and some alterations to the brain from this drug appear to be permanent. However, your depression will not likely be able to be resolved, even with anti-depressants, as long as you are on this drug. You should also try to locate a psychiatrist that is also familiar with HIV drugs and their depression inducing side effects (Sustiva is not the only one that can cause this but is certainly the most severe BY FAR) to get properly evaluated as to what anti-depressant is appropriate for you once you get your anti-retroviral cocktail resolved and acclimate to it. It is VERY likely that you will need to go to a large city like Boston to find someone that meets this requirement. Hopefully, you can get a referral.

Secondly, get your hormonal replacement therapy straightened out. Androgel is a waste of time and Testoderm is even more worthless for this purpose. And while you are at it, have total cholesterol and a full lipid profile done, including tryglicerides. Your HIV meds are likely to cause major scues in your lipids and MAY elevate your cholesterol and triglicerides significantly while typically also depressing your HDL. Your andgrogens will also depress your HDL which is one of the negatives so you need to monitor your lipids closely. Androgens are NOTORIOUS for causing miserable lipid profiles and this only compounds with the effects of the HIV medications which strongly tend to do the same thing.

Third, you should have a body composition analysis done to establish a "baseline" compostion for monitoring of trends relative to lean body mass. The cheapest but least accurate way is by Bio Impedence Analysis (BIA). Usually, you have to locate an HIV nutritionist for this service as most physicians are not that familiar with it outside of major urban HIV practices. Don't worry about the so called "absolute" numbers as they are not accurate from one person to the next. The way it reads is fairly consistent within the specific person so it is actually fairly accurate in determining which way things are heading, not your actual percentage of lean body mass or fat mass. So treat those numbers with a grain of salt. The only accurate way to find that information out is through a hydrostatic tank weighing which you can get done for a small fee at most major universities that have a sports medicine department or by having a Dexascan done which would have to be done by a medical facility. Personally, i would only be concerned with trends, not absolutes.

Fourth, you should have your anti-wasting therapy worked out based on your BIA and body compostions and other lab tests and clinical evaluation. This would include drugs like Oxandrin or Anadrol 50 and Deca (although from my experience, Deca works wonders in counteracting the very negative side effects from AZT on the bone marrow and may actually be more beneficial in this regard than actually adding a whole lot of lean body mass). Something to consider since you are on AZT.

Fifth, get back to the gym. It actually does make you feel better and has been shown to help improve mood. I realize that depression is an "energy zapper" but once you get off of the Sustiva and get re-energized by proper hormone replacement and maybe even some androgen therapy for anti wasting, you may find things start to improve in this department and you may also start to remember what it was like when you didn't have "vivid dreams" and excessive amounts of REM sleep and actually got a decent and proper ratio of deep sleep to REM sleep every night. I am convinced that this all contributes to fatigue, by the way.

Oh, and by the way, I have done AAS at levels FAR higher than any physician that I know of will prescribe to an HIV patient. I have also done them for a relatively long period of time, cycling largely off at times to "give my body a rest" and I also have KS but it has never impacted it. However, that is me, your situation could be different. There is some concern that very high levels of androgens could restart KS but these are at levels that are many TIMES higher than what ANY physician is going to prescribe to you for theraputic reasons. There is a BIG difference. I know of an HIV researcher that has studied this specific issue and presented the information at a previous International Aids Conference. I can provide contact information for him as well in private email.

Good luck on your Tuesday appointment. You have a LOT to discuss and will not have a lot of time to go over it. So be prepared and make your case!
 
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