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T
The Shadow
Guest
...if POF is NOT a valid training philosophy...why do different exercises for a given muscle group???
Lord_Suston
New member
what is POF???
T
The Shadow
Guest
Spatts - lol - yes...but give a pler perspective as well.
T
The Shadow
Guest
pof - positions of flexion
Idea is that each muscle has three "trainable" poistions:
Midrange - think "mass builders"
Stretch and contracted - think isolations exercises
Idea is that each muscle has three "trainable" poistions:
Midrange - think "mass builders"
Stretch and contracted - think isolations exercises
T
The Shadow
Guest
Post it up Spatts
THe pof comment was for the other person that asked.
Of course you *could* walk away..
I would hate to see you leave...but I would LOVE watching you go....
you at home??
THe pof comment was for the other person that asked.
Of course you *could* walk away..
I would hate to see you leave...but I would LOVE watching you go....
you at home??
MarshallPenniford
New member
Corn - I know we don't see eye to eye on this one, but bear with me here. BTW, I'm still trying to find some good supporting research for the other discussion -- then I'm going to tackle yesterdays topic as well ;-), so I'm only going to chime in quickly on this topic (yeah, sure).
There is definitely good reason to select different exercises for the hip and shoulder related movements as you will recruit different muscle groups in different ways by doing so. But as far as isolation and single joint (especially hinge joint) movements, you will recruit 100% of your muscle fibers at a load of around 85% of your 1RM (they fire in a random strobe like pattern I believe). There is no need to select different exercises, just do more sets of the same one. However, if it pleases you to do more exercises, there is no reason not too.
Interestingly enough, studies have shown that beginners will see more GROWTH from doing only isolation movements vs. compounds, over a several month period (I can't remember off hand how many months). The reason being that the compound movement group had to go through the process of learning to become more skilled at the movement, so less fibers are actually recruited. (I probably could explain this better than I just did). Of course once you get past the learning curve, you won't have problems switching exercises, but jumping from compound movement to compound movement might actually lead to less growth than more, it seems.
Now, to support what you are saying, studies do show that at lighter loads, you can preferentially recruit various heads within a muscle group, so there is validity to what you are saying, it just doesn't seem to be applicable at higher loads.
IMO, the best thing to do is do the exercises you like and can safely do. Too many people suffer through uncomfortable movements because they feel they have to do it. In the long run, it won't make much of a difference if any, ever if your contention is in fact correct.
Keep the good topics coming.
There is definitely good reason to select different exercises for the hip and shoulder related movements as you will recruit different muscle groups in different ways by doing so. But as far as isolation and single joint (especially hinge joint) movements, you will recruit 100% of your muscle fibers at a load of around 85% of your 1RM (they fire in a random strobe like pattern I believe). There is no need to select different exercises, just do more sets of the same one. However, if it pleases you to do more exercises, there is no reason not too.
Interestingly enough, studies have shown that beginners will see more GROWTH from doing only isolation movements vs. compounds, over a several month period (I can't remember off hand how many months). The reason being that the compound movement group had to go through the process of learning to become more skilled at the movement, so less fibers are actually recruited. (I probably could explain this better than I just did). Of course once you get past the learning curve, you won't have problems switching exercises, but jumping from compound movement to compound movement might actually lead to less growth than more, it seems.
Now, to support what you are saying, studies do show that at lighter loads, you can preferentially recruit various heads within a muscle group, so there is validity to what you are saying, it just doesn't seem to be applicable at higher loads.
IMO, the best thing to do is do the exercises you like and can safely do. Too many people suffer through uncomfortable movements because they feel they have to do it. In the long run, it won't make much of a difference if any, ever if your contention is in fact correct.
Keep the good topics coming.
T
The Shadow
Guest
good post.
My wanting to include strength athletes is the study that demonstrated that holding a weight various pof positions for maximal lengths of 30-50 seconds led to a strength increase of 25% of a 1rm and 19% on a 10Rm sets and size increase of 12% in 5 weeks.
That was the only set done for the entire muscle group - one set done two to three days per week.
My wanting to include strength athletes is the study that demonstrated that holding a weight various pof positions for maximal lengths of 30-50 seconds led to a strength increase of 25% of a 1rm and 19% on a 10Rm sets and size increase of 12% in 5 weeks.
That was the only set done for the entire muscle group - one set done two to three days per week.
As for THIS strength athlete, and others I train with, we only do ONE (yes, one) move per muscle...3-4 sets. We generally pick moves that are in the plane of the lift we are working to improve. For example bent over reverse grip BB rows with arms at 90 degrees to build lats for a PL bench.
As I have said before, I have gained considerably more mass training this way. Muscle development has not suffered because I only concentrate on one part of the muscle. I think alot of those issues (training the insertion and origin) are designed to make up for genetics (muscle belly length) which is likely not going to happen.
Yes, I'm home.
As I have said before, I have gained considerably more mass training this way. Muscle development has not suffered because I only concentrate on one part of the muscle. I think alot of those issues (training the insertion and origin) are designed to make up for genetics (muscle belly length) which is likely not going to happen.
Yes, I'm home.
T
The Shadow
Guest
what do you think about the study that led to huge increases in bith size and strength by doing one set of timed holds using a mx of three sets per week?
Doktor Bollix
New member
As far as I remember the results were training specific, ie peopel got stronger at timed holds but their results were not transferable to the full ROM.
MarshallPenniford
New member
Corn - I have two minor problems with the study, which I do find interesting.
One being that based on the gains in strength, these are obviously not trained atheletes. You don't go from 200 to 250 on the bench in 5 weeks without training the lift, IMO. 100 to 125, yes. Therefore, the same trainees may have seen a greater increase in strength given a different protocol. Was there another group in the study?
The second is that isometrics are the hardest of all contractions on the CNS, the worst for growth, and the least transferable for strength, so I don't think of them as a good way to train in general. However, they do create strength at the position the contraction is held, and that may be valuable for overcoming sticking points, etc.
One being that based on the gains in strength, these are obviously not trained atheletes. You don't go from 200 to 250 on the bench in 5 weeks without training the lift, IMO. 100 to 125, yes. Therefore, the same trainees may have seen a greater increase in strength given a different protocol. Was there another group in the study?
The second is that isometrics are the hardest of all contractions on the CNS, the worst for growth, and the least transferable for strength, so I don't think of them as a good way to train in general. However, they do create strength at the position the contraction is held, and that may be valuable for overcoming sticking points, etc.
T
The Shadow
Guest
similar to rack training....
T
The Shadow
Guest
What accent???
I have NO accent.......lolol
Thank ya....
Hehehhe...I am now at lunch - LOL
I have NO accent.......lolol
Thank ya....
Hehehhe...I am now at lunch - LOL
MarshallPenniford
New member
Corn - You have a serious Stallone look going on in that avatar. At first, I thought it was him from his younger days.
I pretty much think that there is little difference in exercises as long as they are both done with extreme intensity, properly, and varied OFTEN!!!
Compare the following:
Barbell Overhead and Dbell Overhead...for shoulder development purposes.
.....is there a difference in the size you will gain? I don't really think so.
Flat barbell Bench Press and Dbell Bench Press...for chest development purposes.
.....is there a difference in the size you will gain. I don't really think so.
If you are concerned with strength in a certain exercise then you need to be doing THAT exercise. If you want a strong bench press then you need to bench press. If you want a good overhead press then you need to overhead press.
The more that I train the less I feel that exercise selection is important...as long as both exercises are compound, hard, heavy, and with intensity.
B True
Compare the following:
Barbell Overhead and Dbell Overhead...for shoulder development purposes.
.....is there a difference in the size you will gain? I don't really think so.
Flat barbell Bench Press and Dbell Bench Press...for chest development purposes.
.....is there a difference in the size you will gain. I don't really think so.
If you are concerned with strength in a certain exercise then you need to be doing THAT exercise. If you want a strong bench press then you need to bench press. If you want a good overhead press then you need to overhead press.
The more that I train the less I feel that exercise selection is important...as long as both exercises are compound, hard, heavy, and with intensity.
B True
Lord_Suston
New member
I am speculating that the reason for doing different excercises for each muscle group for a trained athlete is the different amount of tension on the muscle bellies at certain angles. Since many moves stretch a part of the muscle more than the other and put that muscle belly under more stress since the angle is different from the previous excercies. Since most of our muscles are in groups with many insertion points and origins training at different angles ie.. excercises would create stress on muscles that werenh't fully stretch before.
Just my thought
What happen to the individuals power and strength if they are trained, and are they only doing static holds in the flexion position????
Just my thought
What happen to the individuals power and strength if they are trained, and are they only doing static holds in the flexion position????
T
The Shadow
Guest
ggod question.
Marshall - you would NOT BELIEVE how many times I have gotten that in the last week.....I had never thought about ti but there is a slight resemblence...
Marshall - you would NOT BELIEVE how many times I have gotten that in the last week.....I had never thought about ti but there is a slight resemblence...
T
The Shadow
Guest
lol
so bb'ers are not athletes then....
so bb'ers are not athletes then....
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