Lagging Chest...do fly's before pressing movements?

[JG1]

Chest has always been a weak bodypart of mine. I'v never been able to build thick pecs that are in proportion to the rest of my body. My Shoulders, arms, back, and legs are very thick (I'm 5'8" 225lbs), but damn I just can't bring my chest out.

Here's what a typical chest workout looks like:

Flat Bench.....3 x 4-8
d-bell incline....3 x 4-8
flat fly's.......3 x 6-10

I might substitute an excercise here or there, but it usualy stays as two pressing movements followed by a fly movement. All sets are done to failure BTW. This heavy intense training works wonders for the rest of my body, but just not for pecs. I train every muscle once a week. I seem to have a hard to getting a great pump in my pecs also, I mean I get a decent pump, but its not that skin stretching pump that I get with other bodyparts.

Should I try something like this and do fly's first:

Flat Fly's......3 x 6-10
d-bell incline...3 x 4-8
flat bench....3 x 4-8


Just need some opinions on bringing my chest up to par with the rest of my body.

 

[doubles1]

i've always thought the other way around....i dunno maybe im wrong maybe not ...but what i would do is presses liek db inclines, bench, be4 flyes get mroe strenght = lift more = get bigger....


aight, hope this helps, peace,

DD

 

[JG1]

i've always thought the other way around....i dunno maybe im wrong maybe not ...but what i would do is presses liek db inclines, bench, be4 flyes get mroe strenght = lift more = get bigger....


aight, hope this helps, peace,

DD

Thats exactly what I've always done. I have the strength in my chest, thats not the problem, its just that this type of training has gotten my chest quite strong, but lacking in overall thickness.

 

[b fold the truth]

You can always superset for a while to bring up your intensity.

Flat bench with incline dbell flyes
Flat Bench with dips

Try 10 reps, try 1-3 reps, closer grips, elbows wider, wider grips, elbows tucked, SLIGHT decline, inclines first, etc...

What is your strength like on your chest?

B True

 

[JG1]

You can always superset for a while to bring up your intensity.

Flat bench with incline dbell flyes
Flat Bench with dips

Try 10 reps, try 1-3 reps, closer grips, elbows wider, wider grips, elbows tucked, SLIGHT decline, inclines first, etc...

What is your strength like on your chest?

B True

Yeah, I haven't thought about supersetting, it's a good idea.

On flat bench press I can hit 365 for 6 reps......certainly not anything special, but decently strong. Incline d-bells with 125's too light for me to start out with...can get about 12-13 reps. Thats the highest my gym has in d-bells though.

Was actualy thinking of adding in some weighted dips.

 

[Screwball]

Super-setting is a good idea. You may want to try drop-sets as well. I think that because your arms, shoulders and back are stronger than your chest they may taking a lot of the pressing load. As much as I hate to say it, you may need to hit the chest isolation stuff hard (i.e. flys, crossovers, dumbbell work, etc...). Good luck!

 

[b fold the truth]

Remember that a strength bench press uses very little chest at all...your problem may lay in your form. There is a difference in how one benches for bodybuilding and how one does for strength. For safety...I suggest the strength method though...

B True

 

[JG1]

Super-setting is a good idea. You may want to try drop-sets as well. I think that because your arms, shoulders and back are stronger than your chest they may taking a lot of the pressing load. As much as I hate to say it, you may need to hit the chest isolation stuff hard (i.e. flys, crossovers, dumbbell work, etc...). Good luck!

Thats what I was thinking. Perhaps I should start hitting heavy flys first and see if that helps.

BTW, my shoulders are very strong. I do seated d-bell presses with the 125's for 7-8 reps....no bullshit. I think they may be taking over when I do my chest workout.

 

[Blkout]

I have always gotten more growth from flyes than bench presses. I also find that incline dumbell presses and dips help quite a bit. Fuck doing bench presses, they are only good for shoulder injuries.

 

[b fold the truth]

I have always gotten more growth from flyes than bench presses. I also find that incline dumbell presses and dips help quite a bit. Fuck doing bench presses, they are only good for shoulder injuries.

Good for a lot more than shoulder injuries...if done properly.

B True

 

[Blkout]

Good for a lot more than shoulder injuries...if done properly.

B True

Bfold, almost everyone I have ever known in time will either develop rotator cuff injuries or pec tears from doing heavy bench presses. Its well known that mechanically, the bench press is not good for you shoulders like behind the neck presses. Yes some people are fortunate enough to never have problems with these excercises but the majority in time will develop injuries form the excercises.

I am not arguing that good pecs cannot be built by bench presses, many bodybuilders have proven that. But on the same token many bodybuilders have had rotator cuff surgeries and/or pec tears to go along with it. Its also been proven that a slight incline or decline from flat is much better on the cuffs.

There are many alternatives to barbell bench presses than can provide equal or better results without the high risk of injury.

 

[b fold the truth]

I believe that flyes injure rotator cuffs. I have never done flyes for more than a couple of weeks without a sore shoulder or rotator cuff problem.

Spatterson could not do the bench press because of shoulder problems...Hannibal fixed the problem...which fixed the shoulder.

I see your point though...for a lot of people...that is true. They also do not put the time into making the flat bench press a safer exercise.

B True

 

[FitnessFrk]

flys are a stretch muscle movement, perform them last. hold in the stretch position for 4-6 seconds.

 

[Vortexx]

There are two ways to put more stress on a muscle:

- use a heavy weight, like benchpress, using an exercise that targets multiple joints, hopefully the muscle you want to target gets the brunt of the stress (pec instead of the arms(if they are too strong links)) and you have no weak links (delts that prevent a big bench).

- using an isolation exercise like kickbacks for triceps. However more precise, you cannot use much weight.

However nobody has built big arms on triceps kickbacks and concentration curls alone.

Ideally we want to use exercises that AND allow for a challenging weight AND targets the muscle we want to train for optimum intensity.

Depending on your built/ biomechanics etc.. it might mean that FLAT BENCHPRESSES are not specific enough or that FLYES not allow for enough weight for stimulus.

HOWEVER I think allmost anybody can good a workout out of solely DUMBELL PRESSES for chest, it's a the marriage of relatively heavy weight and decent isolation that render the results:

- 12-10-8-6 incline dumbell press
- 12-10-8-6 flat dumbell press
- 12-10-8-6 decline dumbell press

Using dumbell presses for incline/flat/decline, you built stabilizing muscle/neural pathways fast and soon you become a dumbell pressing specialist that kicks around serious weight with 10 reps

Other Exercises I have found to be a good middleground between raw power and isolation exercises are:

BICEPS:
- seated alternate dumbell curls (instead of barbell curls or pullup)
- larry scott curls

TRICEPS:
- lying dumbell extension
- weighted dips between benches

QUADS
- front squats (instead of back squats)

UPPER BACK
- dumbell row
- medium grip pulldown to front


HAMSTRINGS LOWERBACK
- stld (instead of normal deadlift)

DELTS
- arnold presses


This doesn't mean that you should avoid the BIG movements like backsquat, bench, millitary press, t-bar, barbell row,

However If you feel that one of these exercise does not work for you because of:

- not specific enough (bad form or unfavourable biumechanics, weak links)
- injuries (rotator curve, lower back)
- big butt (back squat)
- etc...

Than it might be a good idea to go with these exercises

 

[Blkout]

I believe that flyes injure rotator cuffs. I have never done flyes for more than a couple of weeks without a sore shoulder or rotator cuff problem.

Spatterson could not do the bench press because of shoulder problems...Hannibal fixed the problem...which fixed the shoulder.

I see your point though...for a lot of people...that is true. They also do not put the time into making the flat bench press a safer exercise.

B True

I see your point as well, I do know a few people who have problems with flyes too, but it seems far more people have problems with bench presses than flyes. I think its the fact that with flyes your using dumbells instead of a bar.

I often find that any excercise with a bar that causes pain for an individual can almost always be remedied by doing a dumbell equivalent.

 

[The Shadow]

JG - roll those shoulder blades down and back b-4 you bench - this throws the chest into proper position for PEC stimulation. Widen grip slightly - I put my middle finger on the rings....

 

[Y_lifter]

Light-Medium Weighed Fly's are my Desert for Chest Tri day.

I do them real real slow and lower the DB down until I feel the good Stretch in my chest.

I as well do very little heavy flat BB Bench's.
I prefer Decline, Incline DB done real slow..

I may not get the high weights others are doing, but doing them real slow works very well for me. Especially on the Negative.

 

[Blkout]

JG - roll those shoulder blades down and back b-4 you bench - this throws the chest into proper position for PEC stimulation. Widen grip slightly - I put my middle finger on the rings....

I have heard to try to bring you shoulder blades down also and even try to pinch them together somewhat. I agree that this works chest better, but they still hurt my cuffs.

 

[spatts]

I actually had no trouble with seated flyes. It was laying down that they would bother me, but only if I had just benched. It all went back to my bench form. Once I started benching correctly (NOT WITH MY CHEST) it stopped hurting. I have merged from doing strictly AR work for the external rot.cuff to actually doing strength moves for it JUST this week. I'm going to try a 12 week program for them:
http://testosterone.net/html/52balan.html

 

[The Shadow]

Once I started benching correctly (NOT WITH MY CHEST)

Explain that please ma'am....

 

[spatts]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=137230

 

[b fold the truth]

My grip on the flat bench, at it's widest, is pinky on the power ring. Most of them are done with my pointer finger on the smooth part of the bar these days...serves my functional goals better.

B True

 

[chknmn1]

it's no wonder many people have rotator cuff problems while benching. ignoring your rotator cuffs as a working part on your body is the main mistake. many go into the gym and just try to hit heavy weight in the bench press. people, you HAVE to strengthen your cuffs to handle the associated weight. if you have problems with your cuffs now, think back when you actually said," oh shit, i think i hurt something," while walking around the gym and holding your shoulder. the lack of strength in your cuffs did this, and 9 out of 10 times you WEREN'T ready to handle the weight. I would rather train my cuffs and back up in weight until i can handle it. ignoring the problem and just giving up on benching is absurd. sure, changing exercises is good, but all in all you STILL have to use your cuffs in ANY benching rather it be dumbbell or straight bar. don't ignore the problem, attack and fix it. Do rotator cuff work....

p.s. people, one more piece of advice: "check your ego and pride at the door of the gym." no one cares what you USED to do before you hurt your shoulder....what do you do NOW?


Be smart....Listen to your body, it's your only reliable source.

 

[FitnessFrk]

you do not have to specifically train the rotator cuffs. I've been benching over 400+ (550+ now) for the past 15 years without a single injury. if done with proper form and progression there is no reason for any injury in this sport.

one of the biggest reasons for injury in the sport that's associated with heavy lifting is person not taking enough time off to give the body a complete break. regardless if a person is training natural or using AS.

I've regulary taken 2-3 months off a year since I started training in '82 and have not had one single injury related to weight training, even when PL and I've got my 2000+ lbs @ 229 lbs.

I don't have the abstracts but there are several recent studies on the topic of taking extendend breaks from weight training and the benefits.

 

[bignate73]

.

I don't have the abstracts but there are several recent studies on the topic of taking extendend breaks from weight training and the benefits.

no need to dig up studies to prove something that is good common sense. the body cant be in full recovery mode/adaptation phase forever. AS or no, something will break. it has a weird way of making you slow down, common cold, pulled muscle, impotence...oh wait.....er.....never mind.

hehehe.

 

[The Shadow]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=137230

So the right way for you is the wrong way for develpoment of the pecs...

 

[spatts]

I see it like this. There are ALOT of movements you can do to improve your pecs. The bench form required to improve your pecs can cause more harm than good for some people, depending on form, experience, weight, and LUCK. It's considered a compound movement BECAUSE it invloves alot more than the pecs. Benching the way a BB does will work the pecs, at the expense of the shoulders/tris. Some people can do this forever with no trouble. If you are lifting for strength in the bench press you can NOT lift with your elbows out at a 90 degree angle to the sides, dropping to your chest, and expect to ever find out what you're capable of. None of the top benchers bench like a BB for that reason. The modified bench press that BB's do is wonderful for isolating the pecs. It's also wonderful for creating injuries. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[b fold the truth]

So the right way for you is the wrong way for develpoment of the pecs...

I am finding that the best way for a bodybuilder is somewhere in between...

B True

 

[spatts]

So much of isolation is mental. If you can find a long-term safe form for bench and still isolate your chest, go for it.

 

[Blkout]

you do not have to specifically train the rotator cuffs. I've been benching over 400+ (550+ now) for the past 15 years without a single injury. if done with proper form and progression there is no reason for any injury in this sport.

one of the biggest reasons for injury in the sport that's associated with heavy lifting is person not taking enough time off to give the body a complete break. regardless if a person is training natural or using AS.

I've regulary taken 2-3 months off a year since I started training in '82 and have not had one single injury related to weight training, even when PL and I've got my 2000+ lbs @ 229 lbs.

I don't have the abstracts but there are several recent studies on the topic of taking extendend breaks from weight training and the benefits.

I will agree with you that most people do not rest enough or take time off to recover. On the other hand I will disagree that this is all that is required along with good from to prevernt injuries. Some people genetically have problem with rotator cuffs. Some people have loos sockets or protruding bones. Its not always so cut and dry that if the form is good, they will have no problems. Some people were just not born with perfect cuffs and weight training will expose it in time.

 

[b fold the truth]

If we continually use words like "some people" and other extremes to prove our point...we will all greatly fail in learning proper knowledge.

I can find proof to basically refute any point that can be bade. That doesn't make my point right or your point wrong.

This wasn't meant to be directed towards anyone...I just hate to see debates where all that is discussed to prove their points is the exceptions to the rule. Discussions should be focused towards words like "most people" in my opinion.

B True

 

[spatts]

Look, we're all unique. I have rotator cuff problems, and I'm getting stronger in spite of myself. I've never pitched a ball in my life, so I have nothing to blame it on except crappy bench form and a bad trainer. No amount of knowledge, research, or even experience will allow us to predict the exceptions. Think critically, and for yourself; do the best with what you've got.

 

[Hannibal]

So the right way for you is the wrong way for develpoment of the pecs...

Well when Spatts benched like a bodybuilder...with her elbows out, and pressing in an arc...she was stuck at 95lbs...and had chronic/severe shoulder pain.

Now that I have helped her with her form...tucked elbows, pressing the bar in a straight line...she is moving 175+..in spite of her shoulder problems which we are addressing.

Worked with The Project as he was stuck at 135. Changed his form up got him pressing the right way and now he is in the 175 range as well. Both of them made this progress in the course of 2 months.

Its a matter of risk to reward ratio. If you bench like a BB and use it for Pec development...the risk you are taking with your shoulders seems to outweigh the results. With your elbows out there is a tremendous amount of shoulder rotation. To combat this coaches regularly teach people NOT to touch their chest because it is dangerous...instead they should teach them to press the right way.

 

[TheProject]

Worked with The Project as he was stuck at 135. Changed his form up got him pressing the right way and now he is in the 175 range as well. Both of them made this progress in the course of 2 months.

Its a matter of risk to reward ratio. If you bench like a BB and use it for Pec development...the risk you are taking with your shoulders seems to outweigh the results. With your elbows out there is a tremendous amount of shoulder rotation. To combat this coaches regularly teach people NOT to touch their chest because it is dangerous...instead they should teach them to press the right way.

One of the reasons that I decided to change my split a couple of weeks ago was my bench. Hannibal "fixed" my bench for me about 2 months ago, and went from 135 to 155 in a matter of about 2 weeks. Last time I tested my 1 rep max was over a month ago, and it was 175 then. I still don't have the form quite right, and once I do, I expect to be able to move more weight.

I've been lucky (and had a good trainer watching out for me), so I have yet to be injured.

I still want to work my pecs, but I'll incorporate some flyes or something as aux work to hit that.

 

[Blkout]

If we continually use words like "some people" and other extremes to prove our point...we will all greatly fail in learning proper knowledge.

I can find proof to basically refute any point that can be bade. That doesn't make my point right or your point wrong.

This wasn't meant to be directed towards anyone...I just hate to see debates where all that is discussed to prove their points is the exceptions to the rule. Discussions should be focused towards words like "most people" in my opinion.

B True

Well Bfold, surely you know that not everyone in this world is built the same. How can anyone speak for the majority without knowing how everyone in the world is built? My point is that bad form is too often blamed on this forum for injuries when its very possible that some excercises just don't agree with some people as much as others. I have been training for 13 years now and I have my form down on all my excercises now. I know good and well my form is fine on my bench press for example, but I cannot push heavy repeatedly week after week without injuring my left shoulder. Its always been that way and it has not changed over the years. Its something I have learned to accept and move on to another excercise. It certainly has not hampered my growth by not using this excercise. My point is that there are lots of excercises that can stimulate growth and some are just not suited for some people. I also realize being in the gym as long as I have that many people look for excuses not to do the most demanding excercises such as squats or deads, but this is different that actually not being able to perform the excercise without causing injury. I am in no way saying that form is never the culprit as I learned with my close grip benches last year but more often than not, its not form but the person's body composition that causes such problems.

 

[b fold the truth]

Sounds like you still need to focus on your weak point...your left shoulder.

B True

 

[b fold the truth]

I do understand what you are saying though...just that people are using the "exceptions" to the rule to prove their points. I do understand that there are exceptions though.

B True

 

[Hannibal]

I have been training for 13 years now and I have my form down on all my excercises now. I know good and well my form is fine on my bench press for example, but I cannot push heavy repeatedly week after week without injuring my left shoulder. Its always been that way and it has not changed over the years. Its something I have learned to accept and move on to another excercise.

No offence...but if you continue to do the same thing...you cannot expect different results. IF...your form is fine...but pressing for a couple weeks causes injury...then obviously you have a muscle imbalance that needs to be addressed. That is IF your form is as good as you say it is.

No reason to accept things at face value....change is good.

 

[spatts]

I think what Hannibal is trying to get at, without being condescending, is that we all thought we knew form until we knew better. I thought I was dead on too, but it's hard to know what you don't know when you don't know it...know what I mean? This is why you have to read all you can, attend seminars/watch videos of the people that DO push alot of weight without injury. I have yet to see a person outside of WSB, besides Hannibal, benching correctly. The bench is a total body movement...in fact, when I bench the only thing that cramps up is my left hamstring. I'm not saying your form isn't right, but keeping an open mind and being willing to learn AND teach, is the only way to advance as a lifter and as a human being.

Do you/can you film your workouts? I'd like to see your bench press if you have a video or pics.

 

[Blkout]

I do understand what you are saying though...just that people are using the "exceptions" to the rule to prove their points. I do understand that there are exceptions though.

B True

OK, agreed.