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Research Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic
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Intermittent Fasting discussion thread!!

Thanks for your reply man.

Hunger is not a problem for me. I could fast for 2 days straight if I needed to.

My fear is to lose my muscle mass. I was around 20% BF before my injuries and my arms were 18.5". So I've lost some mass which I haven't been able to get back. Right now I just want to get this gut off my body, and lose another 20-30lbs. That should get me close to the 20% I was before. If I have good success with this plan, I may try to shoot for 15% if I can.

So today it has been like this:

I started my fast at 10pm last night. I took a ZMA and B-Complex caps before bed. I went to bed at 12:30am.

I woke up around 9:30am, took some creatine/caffeine/tyrosine and did 30 mins of cardio.

1hr later I took 10g of BCAA's.

It's currently 12:40pm.

I plan on going to the gym around 2pm, and I will do some fasted training with 10g of BCAA's before my workout.

I plan on breaking the fast around 3pm with a Lean Body shake (300cal) + a meal from a Greek place I know nearby (A chicken leg with potatoes and a Greek salad. I'm estimating 600cal?) So around 900cal in total, and maybe 60-70g protein?

Then my next meal will be another Lean Body shake with another salad around 7pm.

And them my final meal will probably be around 10pm. I'm going to buy some cottage cheese today, so it will probably be around 300cals of cottage cheese with a spoonful of splenda to sweeten it up a bit. I could probably have some more greens to go with it as well.


I really don't know how else to get so much protein in, and keep the carbs low other than doing it that way.


Here's the supplements I'm using currently:

1. Creatine
2. Caffeine
3. Tyrosine

(those are always in the morning, and always before cardio)

4. A multivitamin with my first meal
5. A spoonful of Flax Seed oil with my first meal

I was using Alpha Lipoic Acid before every meal as well, but apparently on IF it doesn't help much? So I'm going to cut down on it and maybe take one r-ala 150mg cap every other day?

Then before bed I take ZMA and B-Complex, which helps trememdously for sleep.

I'm also currently on Dutasteride for hair loss. Holy shit this stuff kicks ass, I'm already regrowing hair, and this is with a very low dose (0.1mg EOD). I can't tolerate higher, otherwise I get severe insomnia.

I was also trying a very low dose of Arimidex (0.07mg once a week)and I find that this is giving me aggression lol. When I take the Dutast and Adex together on the same day, the whole day I feel like the hulk, like I could tear shit apart with my bare hands lol.

My reasoning for this is that I understand that reduction of DHT can potentially raise E2 levels (along with all the environmental E2 mimickers we're exposed to), so I figured a very tiny dose of Adex will help to minimize this. So far I'm liking the results, but what do you guys think?


First off - you will not lose any muscle mass - thats a myth - muscle loss wont occur unless you prolong the fast past 48 hours and arent doing any lifting - second, why so many shakes? You need whole foods - lean meats like fish, chicken, pork, 90% lean beef - and fibrous veggies - its not hard to eat clean - I eat around 100grams of pure meat once I break my fast (chicken, eggs, fish, meats, etc)

also - you dont need the bcaa's on/around your cardio days - only before fasted lift bouts.

good luck
 
First off - you will not lose any muscle mass - thats a myth - muscle loss wont occur unless you prolong the fast past 48 hours and arent doing any lifting - second, why so many shakes? You need whole foods - lean meats like fish, chicken, pork, 90% lean beef - and fibrous veggies - its not hard to eat clean - I eat around 100grams of pure meat once I break my fast (chicken, eggs, fish, meats, etc)

also - you dont need the bcaa's on/around your cardio days - only before fasted lift bouts.

good luck

I can't do the "whole foods" thing where I live. I live with my mom and she just doesn't understand why I have to eat an entire chicken in 2 meals, or why I'm eating 4 steaks a day.

Her mentality is the Dr Oz bullshit. Eat "healthy" (meaning all the shit he promotes) and try not to eat meat at all.

If I buy a whole freezer worth of meat she'll start getting on my case about how I'm eating horribly and I should eat more fruits and veggies.

On the plus side she cooks really healthy, so I will eat a lot of times what she makes, but have to supplement with protein powders to get my protein ratios.

Also it's a nightmare for me to prepare food everyday. I'll spend all my free time cooking and getting stuff ready for the next day.

I rather just use shakes. I got down to 16% bf about 5 years ago like this, but that was before my injuries, and with zero cardio (I was lifting like the hulk, and had enormous power).

My goal is to get down to that again, even if for 3-4 months I have to drink half my meals as pure shakes.

Because of my injuries and limited ability to train hard, I had to add cardio, and I think the 30 mins a day I'm doing is not cutting it. I plan on increasing it to 1hr a day.

My other problem is that I don't get hungry. By the time I'm hungry it means I'm *really* low in calories.

Today for example. I did my training in a fasted state, with 10g BCAA prior, and 1l of water.

Then after I had my fast breaker meal, which consisted of the following:

An Angus Deluxe sandwhich from McDonald's, a salad with walnuts and cranberries I bought from the supermarket, and a Lean Body shake.

The nutritional guide says that sandwich has 800 calories and 47g of protein. The shake has 310 calories and 40g protein. I'm guessing the salad had around 50 calories? So my first meal was around 1160 calories. This was around 3pm.

My second meal was at 7pm. I wasn't really hungry, but I ate anyway. I had another Lean Body shake, and two boiled Corn on the Cobs (around 5" ears). Internet says those corns should be around 100 cal each, and the shake was 310 cal. So that was around 510 calories.

At 10pm I had my last meal. It was 12 egg whites and 10g of BCAA's. The egg whites were fried in about 4 tablespoons of olive oil.

I'm guesstimating that was around 400 calories?

And the fast begins again lol


So I don't know, how the heck can I improve this in my situation? I barely got 160g of protein with this plan and maybe around 2100 calories?

I can't wait to get that Bodymedia sensor device, so I can start tracking how many calories I'm actually burning.
 
This thread started on bb.com and The so-called IF expert had a hard time explaining his theories.... (Martin Berkhan) The main one he expounded upon was that IF doesn't slow down metabolism. The side theory to this was that meal frequency doesn't decrease metabolism. The other big one he expounded on was that fasted workouts do result in excess catabolism. They tend to rely on Lyle McDonald and Alan Argorn for their information....
Granted the first one seems to be believe scientifically. However I would like to see more study on bodybuilders and not 60 year old females. However the second one to me is still very controversial and I will go over the thread for any supporting science.
Since it is scientifically known that amino acids can be oxidized during workouts (methionine is converted into homocystine during workouts. glutamine is oxidized to glutamic acid which elevates ammonia.) BCAA can be oxidized even in resting muscle to produce glutamine and alanine much less during exercise...


Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.
Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition.
Rennie MJ, Tipton KD.
Source
Department of Anatomy & Physiology, University of Dundee, Dundee DD1 4HN, Scotland. m.j.rennie@dundee.ac.uk
Abstract
Sustained dynamic exercise stimulates amino acid oxidation, chiefly of the branched-chain amino acids, and ammonia production in proportion to exercise intensity; if the exercise is intense enough, there is a net loss of muscle protein (as a result of decreased protein synthesis, increased breakdown, or both); some of the amino acids are oxidized as fuel, whereas the rest provide substrates for gluconeogenesis and possibly for acid-based regulation. Protein balance is restored after exercise, but no hypertrophy occurs with habitual dynamic exercise. Resistance exercise causes little change in amino acid oxidation but probably depresses protein synthesis and elevates breakdown acutely. After exercise, protein synthesis rebounds for </=48 h, but breakdown remains elevated, and net positive balance is achieved only if amino acid availability is increased. There is no evidence that habitual exercise increases protein requirements; indeed protein metabolism may become more efficient as a result of training.


Do what you want , but I would really research this to see how one can maximize gains while following an IF diet/workout plan.
 
I can't do the "whole foods" thing where I live. I live with my mom and she just doesn't understand why I have to eat an entire chicken in 2 meals, or why I'm eating 4 steaks a day.

Her mentality is the Dr Oz bullshit. Eat "healthy" (meaning all the shit he promotes) and try not to eat meat at all.

If I buy a whole freezer worth of meat she'll start getting on my case about how I'm eating horribly and I should eat more fruits and veggies.

On the plus side she cooks really healthy, so I will eat a lot of times what she makes, but have to supplement with protein powders to get my protein ratios.

Also it's a nightmare for me to prepare food everyday. I'll spend all my free time cooking and getting stuff ready for the next day.

I rather just use shakes. I got down to 16% bf about 5 years ago like this, but that was before my injuries, and with zero cardio (I was lifting like the hulk, and had enormous power).

My goal is to get down to that again, even if for 3-4 months I have to drink half my meals as pure shakes.

Because of my injuries and limited ability to train hard, I had to add cardio, and I think the 30 mins a day I'm doing is not cutting it. I plan on increasing it to 1hr a day.

My other problem is that I don't get hungry. By the time I'm hungry it means I'm *really* low in calories.

Today for example. I did my training in a fasted state, with 10g BCAA prior, and 1l of water.

Then after I had my fast breaker meal, which consisted of the following:

An Angus Deluxe sandwhich from McDonald's, a salad with walnuts and cranberries I bought from the supermarket, and a Lean Body shake.

The nutritional guide says that sandwich has 800 calories and 47g of protein. The shake has 310 calories and 40g protein. I'm guessing the salad had around 50 calories? So my first meal was around 1160 calories. This was around 3pm.

My second meal was at 7pm. I wasn't really hungry, but I ate anyway. I had another Lean Body shake, and two boiled Corn on the Cobs (around 5" ears). Internet says those corns should be around 100 cal each, and the shake was 310 cal. So that was around 510 calories.

At 10pm I had my last meal. It was 12 egg whites and 10g of BCAA's. The egg whites were fried in about 4 tablespoons of olive oil.

I'm guesstimating that was around 400 calories?

And the fast begins again lol


So I don't know, how the heck can I improve this in my situation? I barely got 160g of protein with this plan and maybe around 2100 calories?

I can't wait to get that Bodymedia sensor device, so I can start tracking how many calories I'm actually burning.



Dude, you ate a McDonald's sand which which was 800 calories, not even 200 calories of that was protein. Eat better and you'll hit your protein goal. Any meal you eat should be around 40-45% calories from protein.
 
I can't do the "whole foods" thing where I live. I live with my mom and she just doesn't understand why I have to eat an entire chicken in 2 meals, or why I'm eating 4 steaks a day.

Her mentality is the Dr Oz bullshit. Eat "healthy" (meaning all the shit he promotes) and try not to eat meat at all.

If I buy a whole freezer worth of meat she'll start getting on my case about how I'm eating horribly and I should eat more fruits and veggies.

On the plus side she cooks really healthy, so I will eat a lot of times what she makes, but have to supplement with protein powders to get my protein ratios.

Also it's a nightmare for me to prepare food everyday. I'll spend all my free time cooking and getting stuff ready for the next day.

I rather just use shakes. I got down to 16% bf about 5 years ago like this, but that was before my injuries, and with zero cardio (I was lifting like the hulk, and had enormous power).

My goal is to get down to that again, even if for 3-4 months I have to drink half my meals as pure shakes.

Because of my injuries and limited ability to train hard, I had to add cardio, and I think the 30 mins a day I'm doing is not cutting it. I plan on increasing it to 1hr a day.

My other problem is that I don't get hungry. By the time I'm hungry it means I'm *really* low in calories.

Today for example. I did my training in a fasted state, with 10g BCAA prior, and 1l of water.

Then after I had my fast breaker meal, which consisted of the following:

An Angus Deluxe sandwhich from McDonald's, a salad with walnuts and cranberries I bought from the supermarket, and a Lean Body shake.

The nutritional guide says that sandwich has 800 calories and 47g of protein. The shake has 310 calories and 40g protein. I'm guessing the salad had around 50 calories? So my first meal was around 1160 calories. This was around 3pm.

My second meal was at 7pm. I wasn't really hungry, but I ate anyway. I had another Lean Body shake, and two boiled Corn on the Cobs (around 5" ears). Internet says those corns should be around 100 cal each, and the shake was 310 cal. So that was around 510 calories.

At 10pm I had my last meal. It was 12 egg whites and 10g of BCAA's. The egg whites were fried in about 4 tablespoons of olive oil.

I'm guesstimating that was around 400 calories?

And the fast begins again lol


So I don't know, how the heck can I improve this in my situation? I barely got 160g of protein with this plan and maybe around 2100 calories?

I can't wait to get that Bodymedia sensor device, so I can start tracking how many calories I'm actually burning.


^well there is your problem bro. You need to seriously change your diet. You can't sit around listening to what your momma tells you to do. It's time to man up and be your own person and look out for your goals. Taking trips to McDonald's and having too many protein shakes aren't going to help you at all. You need lean meats, complex carbs, and green veggies. It's time to make a decision on whether you want to keep looking like you do, or you want to make a big change for the better. In your current situation, you will not change anything without cleaning that diet up big time.
 
Dude, you ate a McDonald's sand which which was 800 calories, not even 200 calories of that was protein. Eat better and you'll hit your protein goal. Any meal you eat should be around 40-45% calories from protein.

Did you mean to type that or do you actually check the macros of each meal you eat to ensure they are 40-45% protein. Most people dont do that and I dont think it's even feasible. It doesn't matter if the meal is McDonalds or Legal Seafood , clean eating does solely mean high protein.

Many clean foods such as vegetables and fruits are higher in carbs then anything else. Some clean vegetables like avacadoes are higher in fats then anything. Most tree nuts are higher in fats then anything else. I wouldn't abstain from these foods simply because they don't meat a 40% - 45% protein ratio.
 
The nutritional guide says that sandwich has 800 calories and 47g of protein. The shake has 310 calories and 40g protein. I'm guessing the salad had around 50 calories? So my first meal was around 1160 calories. This was around 3pm.

My second meal was at 7pm. I wasn't really hungry, but I ate anyway. I had another Lean Body shake, and two boiled Corn on the Cobs (around 5" ears). Internet says those corns should be around 100 cal each, and the shake was 310 cal. So that was around 510 calories.

At 10pm I had my last meal. It was 12 egg whites and 10g of BCAA's. The egg whites were fried in about 4 tablespoons of olive oil.

I'm guesstimating that was around 400 calories?

And the fast begins again lol

It's interesting. If you actually read some of the work of Lyle McDonald, Alan Argorn or Martin Berkam (some of the people who support these IF theories) where they research diet and training philosophies, they are not die hard clean eating advocates at all... Case in point

Max Condition Training and Fitness: Dirty vs. Clean Dieting: Roundtable

Martin Berkhan: From a purely physiological standpoint, it probably doesn´t matter if you’re including foods in your diet that may be labeled unclean by the generic bodybuilder. As long as protein remains a constant, there won’t be any measurable differences in fat loss in the short term when comparing two diets where the rest would be made up by either “clean” or “unclean foods.” There might be some long-term effects on body composition on a diet where fat and carbohydrate food choices are the worst possible (think trans fats and high fructose corn syrup), but these extremes aren’t relevant to the discussion in this context because I don´t think any competing bodybuilder subsists on such foods to a significant degree pre-contest. I do think one should opt for food choices that have satiating and nutritive properties in relation to their caloric content. These foods will in most cases be made up with foods that are traditionally labeled “clean.” However, I do think having cheat meals or “unclean” foods at least once a week has benefits in terms of adherence and sanity during the pre-contest diet (or any other diet for that matter).

Alan Aragon: It really makes no difference from a purely physiological standpoint as long as macronutrition is in check. This is evidenced by the mere fact that you can take ten different coaches (or competitors) and see that they have ten distinctly different approaches to pre-contest preparation. Nevertheless, their athletes will all show up on stage at the maximal degree of leanness that their genetics will allow. You’ll never see a competitor magically show up in better shape than he once did all because of switching out one doughnut per week with a cup of brown rice and a tablespoon of olive oil.
 
Yes, Martin Berkhan and most other IF advocates do not follow a typical 100% clean eating pattern to a T. I also agree with it as well. Unless I am dieting for a contest (like now) I generally have some "dirty" meals on my workout days and eat freely. The thing is that I always make sure I hit my desired macros. There is no problem with what you eat as last ng as the ending macros are right. The problem is that getting the macros right for fat loss is going to be difficult when eating stuff like McDonald's and pizza all the time. Most of that is high fat, high carb, and lower protein. Not a very effective diet for fat loss. In moderation those things can be enjoyed anytime by anyone however. You just need to know how and when you can eat them.

I've been doing 2 cheat meals per week through this whole contest prep, and I'm at 4.9% bodyfat (as of yesterday) Those cheats are great for what they can do to leptin, maintaining muscle/strength and keeping the metabolism from slowing. I'm having whole grain pasta tonight as a cheat and will probably get 400g carbs and 3500 cals for the day. :)
 
BigRickRock, I respect your opinion even from long ago when I joined this board.

I think you're thinking in terms of becoming very lean (you're at 4.9% bf right now for example)

I'm honestly not interested in becoming that lean. For my body type that number would extremely hard to maintain.

I would be happy for now to get back to that 16% bf I used to be.

In the past 3 months I've gone down from 34% bf to 27% simply on cardio and half my meals being protein shakes.

So while i'm trying to clean my diet, i don't know if i could clean it up to the level that you do, at least not without it becoming a full time job lol.
 
BigRickRock, I respect your opinion even from long ago when I joined this board.

I think you're thinking in terms of becoming very lean (you're at 4.9% bf right now for example)

I'm honestly not interested in becoming that lean. For my body type that number would extremely hard to maintain.

I would be happy for now to get back to that 16% bf I used to be.

In the past 3 months I've gone down from 34% bf to 27% simply on cardio and half my meals being protein shakes.

So while i'm trying to clean my diet, i don't know if i could clean it up to the level that you do, at least not without it becoming a full time job lol.

I'm not the same guy as BigRickRock...lol

Some of what you say is correct. It is true that the leaner you get, the more changes you have to make to get even leaner. Usually by cleaning things up even more.

If you have very high bodyfat (>20%), then just making small changes can be huge on dropping weight. Going from 34% to 27% is really not a big deal, considering you would still have sky high bodyfat. If you are content with that, then its fine but I don't know who would be. To get to the mid teens on bodyfat would obviously requires little more discipline to get there. You could still get there eating pretty freely, but not as much as before. Of course the tighter and cleaner you make your diet, along with tracking cals and macros, the faster the results come too.
 
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