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Research Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsResearch Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic

I can't stand Frackal, Liberala and Celebrity views anymore.

Wow Lincoln, So much misinformation and weak arguements are spewing from your mouth.

First you say that Iraq has continually violated UN resolutions so that is the reason we need to go to war with them. Well Israel has violated more resolutions than Iraq but why are we not going to war with them? Is it because Israel is calling the shots?

"Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. 'These are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve,' Sharon said to a visiting delegation of American congressmen. Sharon told the congressmen that Israel was not involved in the war with Iraq 'but the American action is of vital importance.'"


"U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton said in meetings with Israeli officials on Monday that he has no doubt America will attack Iraq, and that it will be necessary to deal with threats from Syria, Iran and North Korea afterwards."

I think you also take the stance that Bush Jr. is going to war because of Saddam's assassination attempt on his father.

In that case, Cuba should have declared war on us at least three times over, because I don't know exactly how many attempts our intelligence agencies have made on Fidel Castro's life over the years, but surely by now the case for a Cuban preemptive strike is clearly established – at least if we use the moral yardstick employed by Just and his Bushian confreres. How many foreign heads of state have we had a hand in assassinating, and how many times did we bungle the job? If even the mere act of planning such an act is grounds for retaliation, then there's no telling how many countries have the alleged "right" to occupy Washington and put our leaders on trial. Or is Just's brand of liberal moralism only aimed outwardly, at other nations?

You said Muslims hate us because of asshole Hollywood people? Nonsense!

Muslims hate us because, in much of the world, our government stands for dictatorship, bondage and human exploitation. We are the target of terrorists because we are hated. And we are hated because our government has done hateful things.

In how many countries have agents of our government deposed popularly elected leaders and replaced them with puppet military dictators who were willing to sell out their own people to American multinational corporations?

We did it in Iran when the U.S. Marines and the CIA deposed Mossadegh because he wanted to nationalize the oil industry. We replaced him with the Shah and armed, trained and paid his hated Savak national guard, which enslaved and brutalized the people of Iran -- all to protect the financial interests of our oil companies. Is it any wonder that there are people in Iran who hate us?

We did it in Chile. We did it in Vietnam. More recently, we tried to do it in Iraq. And, of course, how many times have we done it in Nicaragua and all the other banana republics of Latin America? Time after time we have ousted popular leaders who wanted the riches of the land to be shared by the people who worked it. We replaced them with murderous tyrants who would sell out their own people so the wealth of the land could be taken out by the likes of Domino Sugar, the United Fruit Company, Folgers and Chiquita Banana.

In country after country, our government has thwarted democracy, stifled freedom and trampled human rights. That's why it is hated around the world. And that's why we're the target of terrorists.

People in Canada enjoy democracy, freedom and human rights. So do the people of Norway and Sweden. Have you heard of Canadian embassies being bombed? Or Norwegian, or Swedish?

I CAN'T STAND LEMMINGS LIKE YOU!!!!
 
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FreakMonster said:
Wow Lincoln, So much misinformation and weak arguements are spewing from your mouth.

First you say that Iraq has continually violated UN resolutions so that is the reason we need to go to war with them. Well Israel has violated more resolutions than Iraq but why are we not going to war with them? Is it because Israel is calling the shots?

"Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. 'These are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve,' Sharon said to a visiting delegation of American congressmen. Sharon told the congressmen that Israel was not involved in the war with Iraq 'but the American action is of vital importance.'"


"U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton said in meetings with Israeli officials on Monday that he has no doubt America will attack Iraq, and that it will be necessary to deal with threats from Syria, Iran and North Korea afterwards."

I think you also take the stance that Bush Jr. is going to war because of Saddam's assassination attempt on his father.

In that case, Cuba should have declared war on us at least three times over, because I don't know exactly how many attempts our intelligence agencies have made on Fidel Castro's life over the years, but surely by now the case for a Cuban preemptive strike is clearly established – at least if we use the moral yardstick employed by Just and his Bushian confreres. How many foreign heads of state have we had a hand in assassinating, and how many times did we bungle the job? If even the mere act of planning such an act is grounds for retaliation, then there's no telling how many countries have the alleged "right" to occupy Washington and put our leaders on trial. Or is Just's brand of liberal moralism only aimed outwardly, at other nations?

You said Muslims hate us because of asshole Hollywood people? Nonsense!

Muslims hate us because, in much of the world, our government stands for dictatorship, bondage and human exploitation. We are the target of terrorists because we are hated. And we are hated because our government has done hateful things.

In how many countries have agents of our government deposed popularly elected leaders and replaced them with puppet military dictators who were willing to sell out their own people to American multinational corporations?

We did it in Iran when the U.S. Marines and the CIA deposed Mossadegh because he wanted to nationalize the oil industry. We replaced him with the Shah and armed, trained and paid his hated Savak national guard, which enslaved and brutalized the people of Iran -- all to protect the financial interests of our oil companies. Is it any wonder that there are people in Iran who hate us?

We did it in Chile. We did it in Vietnam. More recently, we tried to do it in Iraq. And, of course, how many times have we done it in Nicaragua and all the other banana republics of Latin America? Time after time we have ousted popular leaders who wanted the riches of the land to be shared by the people who worked it. We replaced them with murderous tyrants who would sell out their own people so the wealth of the land could be taken out by the likes of Domino Sugar, the United Fruit Company, Folgers and Chiquita Banana.

In country after country, our government has thwarted democracy, stifled freedom and trampled human rights. That's why it is hated around the world. And that's why we're the target of terrorists.

People in Canada enjoy democracy, freedom and human rights. So do the people of Norway and Sweden. Have you heard of Canadian embassies being bombed? Or Norwegian, or Swedish?

I CAN'T STAND LEMMINGS LIKE YOU!!!!


Spoken like a true left winger.

I have to go out for a few hours but I wil be back to rip this apart.

Canadians have no problems like we do because they take no stand on anything. They have lived coddled by their loyal friend to the south for to long.

If we all lived like the Norwegians, Swedish and Canadians Hitler's regime would still be marching around.

USA = The worlds police

Everyone hates us until they need us.

Then when we get involved people like you pick apart the method in which we help. You focus on small tidbits of what went wrong or mistakes that were made without ever looking at the great good of the event or the big picture.

Funny how you talk about how aweful we are and how great other places are.

YET, YOU STILL LIVE HERE?

PS - I take no such stance on anything about Bush and Bush Jr. I never said anything about any corelation between the two.

We are going to war because it is the right thing to do.
 
lincoln said:



Spoken like a true left winger.

I have to go out for a few hours but I wil be back to rip this apart.

Canadians have no problems like we do because they take no stand on anything. They have lived coddled by their loyal friend to the south for to long.

If we all lived like the Norwegians, Swedish and Canadians Hitler's regime would still be marching around.

USA = The worlds police

Everyone hates us until they need us.

Then when we get involved people like you pick apart the method in which we help. You focus on small tidbits of what went wrong or mistakes that were made without ever looking at the great good of the event or the big picture.

Funny how you talk about how aweful we are and how great other places are.

YET, YOU STILL LIVE HERE?

PS - I take no such stance on anything about Bush and Bush Jr. I never said anything about any corelation between the two.

We are going to war because it is the right thing to do.

I never stated how awful we are. I simply stated why we are hated so much. Why can you not understand that?
The truth is that none of our thousands of nuclear weapons can protect us from these threats. No Star Wars system -- no matter how technically advanced, no matter how many trillions of dollars are poured into it -- can protect us from a nuclear weapon delivered in a sailboat or a Cessna or a suitcase or a Ryder rental truck. Not one weapon in our vast arsenal, not a penny of the $270 billion a year we spend on so-called defence can defend against a terrorist bomb. That is a military fact.
 
Freak - excellent points on the reason why the US is so heavily disliked by other foriegn nations. I think the American population would do well to understand what our "humane" and democratic government does to those who live in the lesser developed nations. we are disliked because our government subordinates the human and economic rights of indigenous peoples to those of American business.
Unfortunately the vast majority of the American public does not understand this. They are under the false impression that is perpetuated by our media and government that we only altruistically help developing nations develop democracy. Occasionally we do step up and help for humanitartian purposes (Somalia and Yugoslavia) but primarily it is to benefit our economic interests.
This is not meant to justify in anyway 9/11. Attacking civilians is evil. It is meant to help understand why such a "caring" nation is so hated. As a side, most of those that dislike us continuosly stress that it is our gvt not our population that is hated.
 
Let me sum this all up with a story, a story that started a little over ten years ago.

A country, a muslim country, a muslim country in crisis.

Shortly before dawn they had been invaded by the third largest army in the world. Their defenses flattened in moments. They stood no chance.

(For all you listeners out there keep in mind that this is a country that HATES the greedy Americans.)

AN appeal to the UN is made and by the time they set dates and act it will be to late. Look up there in the sky is it a bird? Is it a plane?

Nope it is the greedy Americans here to save the day.

One swift kick and the Iraq's are out of there. We did not run into Baghdad to take it all. We liberated Kuwait and left.

Left behind is a small occupying force. A force their to help recovery and to make sure that the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS of tax payers money sent for relief is spent the way it was intended.

The US in exchange for its live saving help makes agreements to get deals and breaks on oil. In part to pay back the money it spent helping liberate the country.

Lets fast forward eight years..........

Long gone are the days of Iraq's teranicle hold. A democracy is in full swing and life is good.

As the locals look around they begin to wonder and resent why these foreigners are in their country.

And furthermore why do we have to give deals and follow guidlines by these Americans?

Long forgotten are the dead Americans that sacrificed their lives. The money spent to liberate and the stress placed on the families of those who went so far away to fight for people they do not know.

Resentment sets in.

When I left the military in 1997 a poll of Kuwait showed 75% of them disliked Americans.

The world view shifts from we helped them in need to we are using our influence to make economic gains.

Next Up: Afghanistan

The moral here boys and girls is that human nature makes us live in the short term memory. No one remembers the sacrifices made or the billions given. Only the debt made up with economic benefits.

You doubters will say we went to Kuwait for oil. We went to save the people and we did.

Ten years later all that is left is their debt to us.

I could plug this into a dozen countries.

This is our gift and our curse. It will never change.


I LOVE HOW WE DEAL OUT BILLIONS TO HELP PEOPLE AND THEN WE ARE TYRANTS WHEN WE ASK FOR A WAY TO MAKE IT BACK.
 
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"I fucked your Mom"


I am with Lincoln on this.

As Bush Sr. would say, "Saddam is bad, baaad"

For those who are worried about Iraqi civillians being hurt from collateral damage- THEY ARE STARVING OVER THERE ANYWAY!!!!!

What does that leave us with?

SADDAM HUSSEIN

So we will go over there, kill him, buy the oil from the country of Iraq, and do the following:
-build an infrastructure of public services
-supply the over 50,000 empty food dispensaries with food
-establish an election system

What is the alternative?

If we do nothing, please paint a picture of the world 5 years from now with the most despotic leader since Adolf, only now with nukes.

And Freak Monster, Israel knocked out Iraq's last Nucular program in 1982. You can go ahead and thank them for that.
 
lincoln said:
Ten years later all that is left is their debt to us.

I could plug this into a dozen countries.

This is our gift and our curse. It will never change.


I LOVE HOW WE DEAL OUT BILLIONS TO HELP PEOPLE AND THEN WE ARE TYRANTS WHEN WE ASK FOR A WAY TO MAKE IT BACK.

NO ONE likes a hegemon. If our foreign policy were abit less invasive in other countries, then we would be hated less.
 
bumping for some very good debating..

i cant make any sort of reasonable/educated input... but it seems like too many people are against what we're doing, if so, does that mean we should do the opposite?

War is pretty serious and there are real stakes involved here and for a lot of people it seems like its a pissing contest for bush and the country hes in charge of.

I am pretty ignorant with politics so flame me all you want, but I dont want my friends dying for what they believe is right if no one here agrees with what they're doing. It seems like these days if you're not in the army fighting , you cant have pride in your country, you have to nitpick at every little thing we do wrong. Keep in mind all of this debate is going on a web site devoted to bodybuilding and steroid information. the lifestyle most of us lead would be seen as vain and evil by all the people in the world that hate us. they havent got shit like we got, and all we seem to be doing is sitting on our computers with all our freedoms saying how bad we are.

I cant comment on anything thats going on really, except I see interviews of iraqi people who say we got what we deserved in the WTC bombings, like our country or not if you like watching innocent people die in an act of terrorism somethings not right. if we let that country go the way its going with the weapons they have or supposedly have, and the type of leader leading them, i cant see anything good coming from there.

sorry im simple minded when it comes to this shit, i have lots of love and pride for my country, and i enjoy the life im allowed to lead because of my being an america. Lots of issues concerning laws and such im opposed to but i respect as a free man i can leave this country and go elsewhere if i think i have it so bad.

sorry to ramble, thanks for any input you can lend
 
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