Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Good reasons for a once-a-week split
- Thread starter SteelWeaver
- Start date
Hohohohoho and Happy New Year to you Wilson6
Estrogen intoxification NOT. I am old enough now that estrogen holds very little sway over me (well maybe just a smidgen). But you, of all people, have got to agree that SteelWeaver appears to be stacking the deck against herself on several levels?
Estrogen intoxification NOT. I am old enough now that estrogen holds very little sway over me (well maybe just a smidgen). But you, of all people, have got to agree that SteelWeaver appears to be stacking the deck against herself on several levels?
SteelWeaver
New member
Thanks a lot, folks, that's ***REALLY*** helpful. Someday it might be nice if you could get off your smug little PhD-induced high horses and actually HELP somebody out. Sure, it's a free world and you can say what you like, but there's no call for cruelty.
MS - I'm NOT interested in AAS,
I'm NOT interested in surgery, and
I'm NOT interested in changing my choice to be vegetarian.
I'm NOT interested in shorcuts.
I've only being doing this seriously for a year - the year before that was pretty muddled and unfocussed. I've spent this year trying to learn as much as I possibly can about training, nutrition, rest, and whatever else I can about the human body.
Experimenting I can do, but experience only comes with trial and error over time, and intuition only comes with experience.
I joined this board in the hope that I could learn more, from people who've learnt through experience. Why go through a lengthy experimentation process if I can ask if someone else has had similar experiences, and then adapt accordingly? Everything I've learnt here has enhanced what I already knew enormously, and added new knowledge too, but I must say there's a lot of white noise to cut through for some kernels of truth. And to be frank, I didn't expect you two to be adding to the white noise.
I put up this thread in the hopes that somebody, through their learning or experience, or preferably both, would be able to give me some suggestions on which way to go. The reason I asked the questions is I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS. If I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions, now, would I?
If I'm "stacking the deck against myself on several levels", I can tell you it's certainly NOT ON PURPOSE, it's because I don't know any freaking better! I'm still trying to learn - and that's why I'm asking all these questions. Maybe just because it's all so second-nature to you through years of experience and all your extra medical knowledge you just don't remember how difficult it can be trying to figure out which ways to do things when you don't know enough yet to make an educated decision.
Regarding training split, no, I don't use the same split all the time - I change it every 6-12 weeks - and periodisation IS something, ha, surprise, surprise, I do know something about, and have been practising for a year.
Regarding training frequency, and only training a muscle part when it's recovered, one of my very first posts, which I'm certain you don't recall, was a question about Fred Hatfield's training theories, which cover exactly that issue. Of course, the volume he prescribes is silly, but an adapted version of his ideas would have one doing alternately heavy and light workouts for each body part, with frequency peformed according to recovery time.
Only about one or two people responded to my query about the system, and the main comment was "volume is way to high". Fine, whatever, but where's the suggestion for how to modify it??? At the time, I didn't know how to adapt it like what I wrote above. Maybe if someone had helped out better then, I would have been on a completely different system by now.
And STILL nobody has any responses to how you actually KNOW when a muscle is fully recovered.
So, I wanted to know if I was overtraining, even though I didn't seem to have any symptoms of overtraining. Well, apparently, if I read your answers correctly, I was.
The REASON I wanted to know is that I want to cut my training sessions shorter so that I can get more sleep - since I KNOW I need more of that - thank you for pointing out the obvious.
I already have plans in place to move to England in a year, where I will be on a much more BB'ing-friendly schedule. Moving to another country takes a little planning, and costs money. In the meantime, working with the schedule and other "apparent" limitations I have, I would like to make the best gains I can. I sincerely doubt that I will become a world-class natural bodybuilder this year, and if it takes me an extra year in the long run, well, a year spent learning in adverse conditions is a year well spent, as far as I'm concerned. It'll make everything after it seem easier.
Thank you and a happy New Year to you.
Oh, and thanks for the diet advice, MS.
MS - I'm NOT interested in AAS,
I'm NOT interested in surgery, and
I'm NOT interested in changing my choice to be vegetarian.
I'm NOT interested in shorcuts.
I've only being doing this seriously for a year - the year before that was pretty muddled and unfocussed. I've spent this year trying to learn as much as I possibly can about training, nutrition, rest, and whatever else I can about the human body.
Experimenting I can do, but experience only comes with trial and error over time, and intuition only comes with experience.
I joined this board in the hope that I could learn more, from people who've learnt through experience. Why go through a lengthy experimentation process if I can ask if someone else has had similar experiences, and then adapt accordingly? Everything I've learnt here has enhanced what I already knew enormously, and added new knowledge too, but I must say there's a lot of white noise to cut through for some kernels of truth. And to be frank, I didn't expect you two to be adding to the white noise.
I put up this thread in the hopes that somebody, through their learning or experience, or preferably both, would be able to give me some suggestions on which way to go. The reason I asked the questions is I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS. If I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions, now, would I?
If I'm "stacking the deck against myself on several levels", I can tell you it's certainly NOT ON PURPOSE, it's because I don't know any freaking better! I'm still trying to learn - and that's why I'm asking all these questions. Maybe just because it's all so second-nature to you through years of experience and all your extra medical knowledge you just don't remember how difficult it can be trying to figure out which ways to do things when you don't know enough yet to make an educated decision.
Regarding training split, no, I don't use the same split all the time - I change it every 6-12 weeks - and periodisation IS something, ha, surprise, surprise, I do know something about, and have been practising for a year.
Regarding training frequency, and only training a muscle part when it's recovered, one of my very first posts, which I'm certain you don't recall, was a question about Fred Hatfield's training theories, which cover exactly that issue. Of course, the volume he prescribes is silly, but an adapted version of his ideas would have one doing alternately heavy and light workouts for each body part, with frequency peformed according to recovery time.
Only about one or two people responded to my query about the system, and the main comment was "volume is way to high". Fine, whatever, but where's the suggestion for how to modify it??? At the time, I didn't know how to adapt it like what I wrote above. Maybe if someone had helped out better then, I would have been on a completely different system by now.
And STILL nobody has any responses to how you actually KNOW when a muscle is fully recovered.
So, I wanted to know if I was overtraining, even though I didn't seem to have any symptoms of overtraining. Well, apparently, if I read your answers correctly, I was.
The REASON I wanted to know is that I want to cut my training sessions shorter so that I can get more sleep - since I KNOW I need more of that - thank you for pointing out the obvious.
I already have plans in place to move to England in a year, where I will be on a much more BB'ing-friendly schedule. Moving to another country takes a little planning, and costs money. In the meantime, working with the schedule and other "apparent" limitations I have, I would like to make the best gains I can. I sincerely doubt that I will become a world-class natural bodybuilder this year, and if it takes me an extra year in the long run, well, a year spent learning in adverse conditions is a year well spent, as far as I'm concerned. It'll make everything after it seem easier.
Thank you and a happy New Year to you.
Oh, and thanks for the diet advice, MS.
SteelWeaver said:
Ok I added my 2 cents earlier. But I was pulling punches because this is a subject that I am very outspoken about. Why???? If YOU dont think you are overtrained...would you listen to anyone else. People that dont know you or your workout...tellin you that you are "overtrained" because of the volume of your workouts...thats ridiculous.
*asking Warlobo for permission to rant*
I honestly do not see how anyone that calls themself a bodybuilder can believe that it takes 7 days or MORE to fully recover. This not an attack against any of said people as I realize that I am in the minority. But I just cannot comprehend that. Can you actually be sore 168 hours after a workout. Easter Bloc research (Supertraining, Dr. Mel Siff) determined that muscles begin to atrophy after 72 hours. So why would you want to wait OVER twice that long before you trained the same muscle again. It seems that Western training philosophies coincide with a general laziness of the culture. Do as little as possible and still get results. If you dont feel like lifting take a day off. "Instinctive" training??!
Take Soviet lifters....and lets eliminate the drug factor as US lifters are "juiced to the gills" as well dont kid yourself...and while I'm at it Santa Claus does not exist. By US standards....the Soviets were "overtraining"...just by the shear volume of their lifting. Why is it that their "overtrained" athletes were kicking our "well rested" athletes a$$??! Because they did not listen to their body. They made it listen to them. They had a set plan...which included high volume, high frequency, short training sessions. And they did not worry about how they felt with exception of an injury Your body wants to be comfortable....if you listen to it...it will tell you to rest. It will say...missing one workout wont hurt you. It will say...I dont feel like it today. And that all adds up.
In football training camp two and three-a-day practices as standard practice. Are you tellin me that those athletes arent sore from the first two workouts when they hit the field for the third? So why can you only work one body part once a week?
I think that "undertraining" is more of a concern than "overtraining". Unless of course you are talkin about 2 hour marathon session in the gym that are counterproductive anyway. However if you keep your training sessions between 45min and 1 hour. You take an "active" part in your recovery...with practices such as massage, contrast showers, cool down sessions, and adequate nutrition. Then you can successfully train more frequently and hence make greater gains in a shorter amount of time. And TIME is a limited resource for all of us.
The preceeding post was caused by "overtraining syndrome". The author is not responsible for his actions. He needs rest.
Let the VERBAL DISECTION of my post begin.....
Last edited:
Too Many Variables.......Augggghhhhhh!
Unfortunately, there are just too many variables at work here to formulate a 'real' picture of overtraining and an optimised workout **except** with personal 'trial and error' testing of methods. The better informed minds here only can offer us solid advise based upon their own personal experience adding in knowledge of solid research available. In the end though, we *must* each invest our own personal research to discover what things work for our individual circumstance and body. Thus, if what we are doing isn't working to our satisfaction, we should change something and reevaluate our results. Once satisfied with the results, then we can lock down the program.
Science and medicine knows that they don't REALLY know of anything that is *universally* applicable to *all* people, other than gross generalisations(more protein, rest, food, etc.) This is not surprising given the human body is a complex system of even more complex biochemical processes. Each of our systems has multiple variables affecting them like: diet, rest, workout induced muscle stresses/tears, and genetics, et al, ad nauseam. Considering that each of the different systems of the body are interrelated to the others in varying degrees, it is amazing that we know as much as we do.
Before I am flamed into an existence of nothing but ashes and vapour of only small carbon chain molecules; I am not saying science knows nothing. But we do know that people respond somewhat differently to the same stimuli.) Multiply the above mentioned variables with the natural human response variations, and THEN try to calculate definitive answers from all the different results...... Life is truly a bell-shaped curve and there are whole continuums of correct answers!
Personally, at my age(mid 40's) and overall health, I am working on a nine day split. My workouts are constantly varied but must avoid certain moves because my knee and hip joints have little cartiledge left in then. By the way, this is partly due to insane workouts in younger years, with little sleep or recovery time. Needless to say, squats and heavy deads are a thing of the past. Mrs. BE, however, is on a five day split, and can do any lift she pleases(Grrrr). We eat and sleep mostly the same, with minor adjustment for taste and caloric requirements. Her recovery time is significantly better than mine, both in the gym and......ahhh.......never mind. In my case, differences in recovery appear to have more to do with genetics and overall health than intensity or external variables like diet or sleep. Not sure that really proves anything, but we still keep plugging at it.
Everyone should be VERY concerned with the lack of sleep and rest. One ***WILL*** have to pay the piper for burning that candle at both ends. Perhaps, as in my case, with much more valuable things than just poor gains in the gym. Some examples might include wrinkles, cancer, arthritis, auto-immune problems, shorter life span, etc. No lecture, but I'm there already, and recent research statistics show that some problems were preventable, or could have been delayed with proper care.
Unfortunately, there are just too many variables at work here to formulate a 'real' picture of overtraining and an optimised workout **except** with personal 'trial and error' testing of methods. The better informed minds here only can offer us solid advise based upon their own personal experience adding in knowledge of solid research available. In the end though, we *must* each invest our own personal research to discover what things work for our individual circumstance and body. Thus, if what we are doing isn't working to our satisfaction, we should change something and reevaluate our results. Once satisfied with the results, then we can lock down the program.
Science and medicine knows that they don't REALLY know of anything that is *universally* applicable to *all* people, other than gross generalisations(more protein, rest, food, etc.) This is not surprising given the human body is a complex system of even more complex biochemical processes. Each of our systems has multiple variables affecting them like: diet, rest, workout induced muscle stresses/tears, and genetics, et al, ad nauseam. Considering that each of the different systems of the body are interrelated to the others in varying degrees, it is amazing that we know as much as we do.
Before I am flamed into an existence of nothing but ashes and vapour of only small carbon chain molecules; I am not saying science knows nothing. But we do know that people respond somewhat differently to the same stimuli.) Multiply the above mentioned variables with the natural human response variations, and THEN try to calculate definitive answers from all the different results...... Life is truly a bell-shaped curve and there are whole continuums of correct answers!
Personally, at my age(mid 40's) and overall health, I am working on a nine day split. My workouts are constantly varied but must avoid certain moves because my knee and hip joints have little cartiledge left in then. By the way, this is partly due to insane workouts in younger years, with little sleep or recovery time. Needless to say, squats and heavy deads are a thing of the past. Mrs. BE, however, is on a five day split, and can do any lift she pleases(Grrrr). We eat and sleep mostly the same, with minor adjustment for taste and caloric requirements. Her recovery time is significantly better than mine, both in the gym and......ahhh.......never mind. In my case, differences in recovery appear to have more to do with genetics and overall health than intensity or external variables like diet or sleep. Not sure that really proves anything, but we still keep plugging at it.
Everyone should be VERY concerned with the lack of sleep and rest. One ***WILL*** have to pay the piper for burning that candle at both ends. Perhaps, as in my case, with much more valuable things than just poor gains in the gym. Some examples might include wrinkles, cancer, arthritis, auto-immune problems, shorter life span, etc. No lecture, but I'm there already, and recent research statistics show that some problems were preventable, or could have been delayed with proper care.
Last edited:
I think ya'll are stressed with holiday fun and games......
Steel, there is only so much detailed help you can get over the internet, try not to get too angry. You really, really need a clued up personal trainer if you can't yet assimilate all the bits of knowledge you've learned so far. We can not tell from a distance if you're overtraining, undertraining, eating too many carbs, too little protein etc.....as you appreciate there are hundreds of different methods, some which work better for certain folks than others. Thus Hannibals "philosophy" on overtraining no doubt works well for a young, naturally (or unaturally) high testosteroned male with world class genetics, and top notch coaches, dieticians, physios, massuers and nothing else to worry about in life other than eat, sleep, recover. In the real world of women with average genetics and full time families and careers, over extending yourself in any direction (including weights or lack of rest and good nutrition) can cause, at the very least, lack of progress and at the very worst negative progress or injury. As WarLobo once put it, it is not so much a question of overtraining as under recovering........However your symptoms do not sound to me like you're under recovering. Sounds more like bad luck. Injuries can happen at any time unexpectedly, even with the best of form and recovery.
Wilson6 said pretty much the same thing "You have to find what works for you, but I've had much success with each bodypart once per week, ditto with my clients, even the veteran lifters.
Personally, I think it has to do with the intensity that one lifts. I get the sense that some of you only think you are pushing max intensity, thus you're recovery time is less. Volume and intensity are different variables and everyone's training program is different." You may not find that answer "helpful" but at least he isn't pretending there is one and only one spilt that prevent overtraining and detraining. Hannibal was even less helpful in that all he said was that overtraining is bunk, without giving any specific info on how you should plan your training.
Now ya'll have a nice New Year.
Steel, there is only so much detailed help you can get over the internet, try not to get too angry. You really, really need a clued up personal trainer if you can't yet assimilate all the bits of knowledge you've learned so far. We can not tell from a distance if you're overtraining, undertraining, eating too many carbs, too little protein etc.....as you appreciate there are hundreds of different methods, some which work better for certain folks than others. Thus Hannibals "philosophy" on overtraining no doubt works well for a young, naturally (or unaturally) high testosteroned male with world class genetics, and top notch coaches, dieticians, physios, massuers and nothing else to worry about in life other than eat, sleep, recover. In the real world of women with average genetics and full time families and careers, over extending yourself in any direction (including weights or lack of rest and good nutrition) can cause, at the very least, lack of progress and at the very worst negative progress or injury. As WarLobo once put it, it is not so much a question of overtraining as under recovering........However your symptoms do not sound to me like you're under recovering. Sounds more like bad luck. Injuries can happen at any time unexpectedly, even with the best of form and recovery.
Wilson6 said pretty much the same thing "You have to find what works for you, but I've had much success with each bodypart once per week, ditto with my clients, even the veteran lifters.
Personally, I think it has to do with the intensity that one lifts. I get the sense that some of you only think you are pushing max intensity, thus you're recovery time is less. Volume and intensity are different variables and everyone's training program is different." You may not find that answer "helpful" but at least he isn't pretending there is one and only one spilt that prevent overtraining and detraining. Hannibal was even less helpful in that all he said was that overtraining is bunk, without giving any specific info on how you should plan your training.
Now ya'll have a nice New Year.
MS said:
Well using myself as an example. "My philosophy" will work for a young male....WITH shitty genetics, NO coach, NO dieticians, NO massage therapist, NO commercial gym membership....just IRON, and whatever food that could be afforded at the time. As well as working 40+ hours a week, and 12 hours a week of classes.
It also has worked for one of your own. I used "my philosophies" to help a female lifter here...and she added 20lbs in a short amount of time. You have seen the pics even if you dont know that you have.
And in a couple of weeks...I will have another success story about a woman on this board
MS said:
Well I would have to agree with your first statement. "there is only so much detailed help you can get over the internet" My point was that one should not worry about overtraining if they arent seein any signs. A person should not let people on the internet that know next to nothing about her decided wether she is overtraining or not. At least that was my intended point.....it kinda got lost when I jumped up on my soap box and started ranting. Sorry about that....
