For all those new people asking about Clenbuterol or Fat Loss

[Conciliator]

Re: For all those new people asking about Clenbuterol

results do not equate to safety--and at its best, the days you use it your metabolism will increase by less than 10%--on the off days, your metabolism rebounds into a slower range.

moreover, given that the net amount of days used should equal days not used to avoid complete attenuation, you have a net lowering of your metabolism---

Do you have any evidence that clenbuterol causes metabolic depression after discontinuation?

but the damage to your heart has probably already already occurred.

What damage are you referring to? Cardiomyocyte apoptosis?

 

[OMEGA]

Cardiac tissue Necrosis in Animal Models led to zCELL death

interesting fact is the dosages used when cross referenced with Bodybuilder doses were VERY close

Also the way Clen interacts with the CNS is also VERY taxing and harsh, and also leaches calcium and other minerals from the body

 

[ThaGeneral]

Anyone ever tried injectable Clenbuterol?

 

[Conciliator]

It is good that it will never be clen--

And what about my advice makes little sense?--I would be glad to defend my position with hard scientific evidence and not bro-ology.

Most importantly, there is real evidence that some of clen's benefits (anti-catabolic) may be the reason for the enlargement and stiffening of skeletal muscle tissue via a significant influx of collagen fibers--not actual muscle cell enlargement.

I'd like to see any references you have that clen causes an increase in callogen in skeletal muscle, especially in humans or at doses relevant to human use. This study in lambs contradicts that, as "Clenbuterol significantly decreased collagen concentration because myofibrillar proteins were preferentially produced." And that was with a high dose, as well, 400 micrograms per kg. Further, this study, presumably in huamns, stated "The result showed that the collagen proliferation of both type I and IV was much reducible in the clenbuterol-treated group than that of the placebo-treated group. It was concluded that clenbuterol could inhibit partially the proliferation of intramuscular collagens in denervated skeletal muscle."

Thus, the heart is not stronger, but actually degrades the actual muscle fibers and reduces cardiac output.

What you just described above was skeletal muscle. Then you made a conclusion ("thus") about cardic muscle. I don't see the one following from the other (even if the first is true, which I question). Also, I'm no expert on the topic, but human studies like this seem to completely contradict that. Here, they gave high dose clenbuterol (up to 720 mcg) for three months. They found that "No significant change in myocyte size or collagen deposition was seen." Further, in support of an anabolic/anti-catabolic effect in humans, they found that "clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength," though there wasn't control group.

Now, is the degradation of cardiac output something that a person with a propensity to be over-fat something you think is a good thing?

I'd also like to see references that there is a degredation in cardiac output, especially in humans or at doses relevant to human use. Thanks.

 

[Conciliator]

Cardiac tissue Necrosis in Animla Models dosages Killed Heart tissue CELL death

interesting fact is the dosages used when cross referenced with Bodybuilder doses were VERY close

Not really. Unless you take 1 mcg per kilogram ON DAY 1 OF DOSING. I don't know anyone who does that. Doses usually only get that high after a few weeks of desensitization, at which point you're no longer extapolating to the same thing in humans.

You're probably referring to this study. Beta-2 agonism in the heart is actually cardioprotective. It's often missed, but the abstract says "...clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta 1-adrenoreceptor..." So it wasn't beta-2 agonism in the heart that caused the apoptosis. As the paper explains, "available information suggests that b2-AR stimulation is antiapoptotic and that it may even be beneficial to the failing heart." Rather, what induced apoptosis was excessive beta-1 agonism from the local release of noradrenaline in response to the clen. They conclude:

Taking all our experimental observations together, the most likely mechanism for clenbuterol-induced toxicity on cardiac myocytes appears to be an injurious effect, not directly via the cardiomyocyte b2-AR, but indirectly via stimulation of the b2-AR of presynaptic nerve terminals, which consequently augments the release of noradrenaline (30). This observation that b2-AR activation in vivo can induce apoptosis does not negate the putative antiapoptotic effects of b2-AR stimulation in vitro (7, 46, 47, 49) but instead shows that the antiapoptotic effect of b2-AR stimulation is relatively small and easily overwhelmed by the concomitant indirect b1-AR stimulation that occurs in vivo.

The problem is when excessive doses of clen are taken, because this causes the release of norepinephrine from presynaptic nerve terminals. The norepinephrine can then cause undesirable cardiovascular effects (and possible heart damage). Moral of the story: keep your doses of clen low. You can still get a profound lipolytic (fat loss) effect from a low dose, while reducing your risk of adverse events.

The question now is whether humans have the same ratio of beta-2 agonism to presynaptic noradrenaline release (and beta-1 agonism). IMO, if humans really experienced significant beta-1 agonism, you'd expect the heart rate to rise much more than it does. Yet this is not what you see with moderate dosages of clen. Rats are not humans and extrapolations here are really questionable in my mind.

The study in rats showed a threshold level for cardiomyocyte apoptosis at 1 mcg/kg. For a 200 lb bodybuilder, that would be about 91 mcg/day, which is well within common dosages. Nonetheless, one could easily run a cycle below this threshold level. As I explained above, doses are increased in light of desensitization. Extrapolating from the study, apoptosis would occur in a 200lb bodybuilder if he took 91 mcg on day 1. Most would agree that's very excessive so early on. Now if we're talking about day 14, things are much different, since beta-2 AR downregulation will mean the higher dose is effectively a lower one, with much less impact.

Lastly, take into consideration that taurine is cardioprotective and often taken along with clen. It may change the threshold level, even if it was directly applicable to humans.

 

[jungle4321]

Jungle
we will give FREE shipping
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if you really dont like it, would meet you half way or more IF the story was true

OMEGA
www.AGXsports.com

I will further consider it...

 

[Conciliator]

Also the way Clen interacts with the CNS is also VERY taxing and harsh, and also leaches calcium and other minerals from the body

According to what? Please post some references.

 

[OMEGA]

Plenty of references Sir

dont have time to find them but there are on EVERY single point I have made

I have been here since 2001 I dont say it unless it can be backed up

 

[ThaGeneral]

Is it safe to Inject clen?

 

[OneBreath]

Re: For all those new people asking about Clenbuterol

Negative. Anticatabolic effects have been shown numerous times in humans, corroborating the animal data.

For example, this study in obese women found that after 8 weeks of EC administration, the EC group lost 9.9 lbs more body fat and 6.2 lbs less fat-free mass. "These findings provide evidence that promotion of fat loss and preservation of FFM during weight reduction may also be achieved pharmacologically in humans."

This more extensive study stated "We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties."

This paper was pretty explicit, titled "Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure." They found that "Clenbuterol was well tolerated and led to a significant increase in both lean mass and the lean/fat ratio."

This study, titled "Oral albuterol dosing during the latter stages of a resistance exercise program" found that "A higher lean body mass trend also occurred with albuterol from weeks 10-13."

Finally, this study give albuterol for 12 weeks to boys with muscular dystrophy. Outcome measurements included lean body mass and fat mass. They found that "Lean body mass was significantly higher for subjects following albuterol treatment compared to placebo treatment, while fat mass was significantly lower."

While there is more evidence in animals showing anabolic/anti-catabolic effects from beta-agonists, there is definitely evidence supporting the existence of the same effect in human skeletal muscle.

Dude you're a walking clen encyclopedia lol. I did clen a little over a year ago and when i was researching it i was unaware of this. Interesting stuff. I didn't know studies on obese women had been conducted. Someone obviously has human weightloss applications in mind. Its strange how pharmaceutical weightloss applications never seem to go well.