fixed cutting diet

[Burning_Inside]

belial the whole point of this morning cardio is to hit fat stores. Not glycogen.

it's all about "accelerated" fat loss...

that's the difference between hitting the fat strores and burning the glycogen.

I mean i "know" that it's a prime time to lose muscle, though i have to disagree there will be an extreme amount of cortisol in your system if you eat before you sleep.

But you have to agree it's also the best time for hitting the fat stores. Like I said, I'll trade off some muscle loss for a lot more fat loss.

 

[sweets]

muscle loss vs. fat loss...

wouldn't the latter be much greater and therefore worth it???? very curious over here.

 

[Cackerot69]

I doubt anything additonal i say will change your mind, Burning.

Anyway...the body has 3 choices for an energy source in the morning. It can either use:

1. Stored Glycogen.

2. Muscle.

3. Fat Stores.

I put them is that specific order on purpose . That is the order they will be used as energy. Unless on a keto diet you are not going to completely burn all glycogen, so the first immediate energy source is glycogen. Now, think about why the body burns glycogen BEFORE fat, we all agree on this, correct? It does this becuase glycogen is a quicker/more efficient energy source, quicker to burn, quicker energy. This is the same reason muscle is burned before fat. In the morning your body is basically starving. Remember all that crap about "starvation mode" when dieting? Well, your body is in this stage when you wake up. When starving your body can either:

1. Preserve Muscle Mass and Burn Fat.

2. Burn Muscle and Preserve Fat Mass.

Which is better for survival, Fat which is more than twice as energy dense as protein, or protein? The fat is more energy dense, thus it will keep you alive longer! The body burns Muscle before it burns fat becuase it needs to preserve fat in case of future starvation.

Cardio on an empty stomach = lean muscle mass loss and fat preservation.

The human body sucks sometimes...

 

[johnjohn]

So if your body chooses glucose first, then protein, how can we ever burn FAT? Just Curious.

John

 

[sweets]

help. i'm so confused now. so is it possible to get to burn fat stores, at all, during the cardio. so, does this actually mean that the fat burning will occur after the fact?? since bmr is up. this is getting too confusing for me. i just want to burn me some fat. that simple. my diet is clean. my discipline is good. my morning cardio on empty... now i learn is not a good choice??? so then what???

 

[Cackerot69]

No No No.

Just about everything i said ONLY happends when doing morning cardio on an empty stomach.

This doesn't apply to doing cardio at other times, as your body is not in "starvation mode", and catabolism.

 

[Rudee34]

Cackerot69

You bring up excellent points about timing of Cardio. I can personally vouch for the fact that morning cardio can have adverse effects if duration between last meal and the cardio session is too long.

I use to eat my last meal at about 7PM, and perform cardio the following morning at 6AM. 11 hours with no food put me in a catabolic state and I ended up dropping weight fast - unfortunately, a good portion of that weight was muscle.

I then switched to performing cardio after my workout in the evening, rather than the following morning. I worked out at 9PM, with my last meal at 7PM. I found that my weight training sessions burned the majority of the the glucose, thus I tapped into bodyfat stores rather quickly when I hopped on the LifeCycle after my weight session. The result: Fat literally dropped off me, and in 12 weeks I was in the best shape of my life.

 

[MS]

Well you guys can and will 'theorize' all you want about this stuff. The bottom line is to try it and see. MindGame was asking for some cuttng advice, not bulking advice. I do the traditional "no starchy carbs afetr 3pm) and "cardio first thing in the morning" when I'm cutting for shows. I lose very little muscle this way, and lots of fat. So as my boss is fond of saying "it may work in practice, but it won't work in theory".

There is really no doubt that the body will burn more fat when insulin levels are low, and glycogen stores are depleted. How you achieve this state of optimal fat-burning is up to you. You can use insulin, ketogenic diets, am cardio or a combo of all 3. Cardio after weight training also works. The important thing in any of these situations is that you have some protein after these events. I won't go into the tedious biochemistry here, but breakdown of muscle as a part of muscle "remodelling" is probably one of the most important aspects of muscle growth/maintenance in the right environment. In other words, short-term catabolism can lead to long term muscle growth/maintenance if you play your cards right.

 

[Burning_Inside]

Cackerot, I never read anywhere that muscle is burned before fat in the morning, it doesn't make sense to me, and I just tried doing a google search with some more keywords hoping to find something somewhere written aboutt hat, and I personally couldn't find any. if you can find a spot to back up what you say, please post it.

I want to say I don't go along with the muscle before fat deal because of the survival thing, not in this case.

at this time, how does your body concern itself with prolonged survival, when your body, being an efficient machine, is in the midst of searching for an immediate means of energy? If it doesn't get immediate energy to keep up with the stress and stay alive, it's not going to geta chance to survive for a prolonged period of time. Now with that in mind, if it needs immediate energy, why is it going to go for muscle (protein) at 4 cals a gram when it can get 9 from fat? More calories per gram = greater efficiency. Makes no sense.

Rudee, your problem is you were going 11 whole hours without food. you stopped eating at 7, I think cortisol starts popping out at around 3-4 hours of not eating...so you'd stay up till im guessing 10-11, cortisol levels should already be high by then and then you go to sleep, which produces more as well....I bet if you ate a pre bedtime small balanced meal, you wouldn't have totally wiped away your muscle with morning cardio.

Now cackerot, I'm sorry, but I never ever heard your theory from anyone, and i neevr read it anywhere. if you say it's true, then why in the world do you not see your method reccommended anywhere, and virtually every site and book tells you to do it on an empty stomach?

i'm sure despite what you think, people have done it with success, and there has to have been studies done on people other than obese middle aged women like you say. Scientists study everything, i doubt they'd pass this up, and I'm sure you probably find some kind of scientific data somewhere if you lookextremely hard..

 

[Cackerot69]

This is my last post on this subject, we are not getting anywhere.

Most of what you said has been said before, and i have replied to it, i guess you failed to understand. If that is the case, re0read my posts. However, you did bring up some new points, and i will adress them.

"at this time, how does your body concern itself with prolonged survival, when your body, being an efficient machine, is in the midst of searching for an immediate means of energy?If it doesn't get immediate energy to keep up with the stress and stay alive, it's not going to geta chance to survive for a prolonged period of time. Now with that in mind, if it needs immediate energy, why is it going to go for muscle (protein) at 4 cals a gram when it can get 9 from fat? More calories per gram = greater efficiency. Makes no sense. "

The bodies sole purpose is survival. Everything the body does is to benefit survival. Everything. Once glyogen is burned, the next immediate energy source is MUSCLE. I've explained this to you already.

"Now cackerot, I'm sorry, but I never ever heard your theory from anyone, and i neevr read it anywhere. if you say it's true, then why in the world do you not see your method reccommended anywhere, and virtually every site and book tells you to do it on an empty stomach?"

Why do you see people spreading the myth of muscle shaping, toning, working the different parts of muscles (upper and lower pecs)? Becuase people don't apply basic physiology to what they are doing, it's not very hard to understand. Fat is more important for survival than that 1lb a muscle you put on in the past month through training.

"i'm sure despite what you think, people have done it with success, and there has to have been studies done on people other than obese middle aged women like you say. Scientists study everything, i doubt they'd pass this up, and I'm sure you probably find some kind of scientific data somewhere if you lookextremely hard.."

If you can find a study, i would be glad to read it - good luck, becuase it doesn't exist. You will lose fat by doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach, of course you will, but at the cost of increased lean muscle mass loss.

MS,

"Well you guys can and will 'theorize' all you want about this stuff. The bottom line is to try it and see. MindGame was asking for some cuttng advice, not bulking advice. I do the traditional "no starchy carbs afetr 3pm) and "cardio first thing in the morning" when I'm cutting for shows. I lose very little muscle this way, and lots of fat. So as my boss is fond of saying "it may work in practice, but it won't work in theory"."

Are you on AS? Just curious. This WILL work, but the cons are greater than the pros.

"There is really no doubt that the body will burn more fat when insulin levels are low, and glycogen stores are depleted. How you achieve this state of optimal fat-burning is up to you. You can use insulin, ketogenic diets, am cardio or a combo of all 3. Cardio after weight training also works. The important thing in any of these situations is that you have some protein after these events."

Yes, it will burn more fat, and it will burn more muscle. The muscle will go faster than the fat.

"I won't go into the tedious biochemistry here, but breakdown of muscle as a part of muscle "remodelling" is probably one of the most important aspects of muscle growth/maintenance in the right environment. In other words, short-term catabolism can lead to long term muscle growth/maintenance if you play your cards right."

This is only the case with weight training, you stimulate contractile hypertrophy by tearing down muscle fibers, and they "remodel" and supercompensate in case of future stress. This does not mean that burning muscle as energy is a good thing.

As i said, This is my last post on this topic. I hope you all learned something.