Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below 
theprofessor
New member
K+Lestat said:I apologize to any I have offended personally. I appreciate everyone's input here, life is all about learning. Thank you to everyone for keeping this thread on topic and mostly civil
Example of how Bibllical History is contrived (made up)
- Thread starter Lestat
- Start date
megamania500
New member
krishna said:
By logic do you mean, "There's no concrete evidence of a God, so its logical that a god doesn't exist"?
You may as well apply the same challenge to other religions as well. Maybe wiccans, buddists, pagans, sun worshippers, satanists, muslims, and hindus, just might have something to say about the subject.
A religion, by definition, defys logic. That is why it is called a "faith". You have to have "faith" in what you believe to be true. If you could apply logic to a belief, such as proving that what your worshipping actually exists, then "faith" no longer is needed.
Imagine if there was a group of people who lived deep underground for generations, without any of them ever coming up to the earth's surface. Anything they needed was lowered down to them through a shaft on a regular basis.
During this time, the parents of the children would tell them stories of a big, bright light that came around for a certain amount of time during every 24-hour period. This light was called the "sun" and it gave life to the surface of the earth, helping plants grow which provided the food that was given to them in the shaft, and provided free light and warmth when it shined. The people didn't have actual pics of the sun, but made drawings of it.
Now, the only info the kids had to go by in determining whether or not that the sun actually existed was the others stories of it, which had been handed down to them the same way, and homemade drawings. THere was no pics, science books or anything else like that, just the words of the elders.
If, at this point, any of these people actually believed that the sun really existed, it would be based on faith alone. They would have no concrete evidence to support their beliefs. To ask them to logically support their belief in the existence of the sun, what would they have to use? Nothing. They have been told, and may believe, that an apple that they are eating had been grown with the help of the sun, but they have no proof. They may show you the apple, and explain how the sun supposedly plays a role in its growth. But logically, they would have no leg to stand on.
Some of the underground dwellers may believe in the sun's existence. They have faith that it actually exists, despite the lack of concrete evidence. And the circumstantial evidence could be just as easily argued against. Then there may be others who feel that they won't believe in the sun until they actually see it and experience its warmth first hand.
To bring them to the surface to let them actually see the sun is irrelevent. Some based their beliefs based on faith, others based theirs on logic. Point is, once they all saw the sun with their own eyes, the concept of "faith" no longer existed. It wasn't needed in believing the existence of the sun. Now they all believed. Those who had faith had their beliefs verified, while the others who needed proof of the sun's existence got it (if they all had come to the surface during nighttime...
). So you can see why you won't get a logical argument in favor of a religion. Like those people who haven't yet come to the surface, all they have to base their beliefs on is "faith". If logic could be applied, "faith" no longer applies to the belief.
With the story, we knew what they would find once they came to the surface. But none of us knows for sure what happens once we die. We all just have our beliefs to go by.
Recruit
New member
Noone can convince me that I am wrong. I have been to parties, concerts, heard moving speeches, and still no feeling can parallel Gods presence. And although I'm sure many will not believe this, I have actually seen people be healed and have been healed myself. I'm not talking about televangelists. Take one of my best friends for instance, he was diagnosed with spinal meningitis and told he would never walk again. The next day his pastor came and prayed for him, and the next morning he walked out of the hospital carrying his own suitcase. I just worked legs with him 4 hrs. ago. Just because you have not had your own personnal experience with God, does not mean He isn't real.
bignate73
New member
some are denying just the God that is represented in Christianity or any organized religion. krishna is proclaiming a universal power which is about the most humble way of saying that our minds are too feeble to put an understanding to it. which is why the majority of dieties are explained in understandable terms. think about the intellect of the common man of 2000+ years ago. that has to tell you something about how the need for explanation was quite necessary and the ultimate result was overly simplistic in nature.
personally, I'm not denying a universal force, but personally, I'm humble enough to say I don't understand it, nor do i need to worship it...just respect it for what it is.
personally, I'm not denying a universal force, but personally, I'm humble enough to say I don't understand it, nor do i need to worship it...just respect it for what it is.
krishna
New member
megamania500 said:By logic do you mean, "There's no concrete evidence of a God, so its logical that a god doesn't exist"?
You may as well apply the same challenge to other religions as well. Maybe wiccans, buddists, pagans, sun worshippers, satanists, muslims, and hindus, just might have something to say about the subject.
A religion, by definition, defys logic. That is why it is called a "faith". You have to have "faith" in what you believe to be true. If you could apply logic to a belief, such as proving that what your worshipping actually exists, then "faith" no longer is needed.
Imagine if there was a group of people who lived deep underground for generations, without any of them ever coming up to the earth's surface. Anything they needed was lowered down to them through a shaft on a regular basis.
During this time, the parents of the children would tell them stories of a big, bright light that came around for a certain amount of time during every 24-hour period. This light was called the "sun" and it gave life to the surface of the earth, helping plants grow which provided the food that was given to them in the shaft, and provided free light and warmth when it shined. The people didn't have actual pics of the sun, but made drawings of it.
Now, the only info the kids had to go by in determining whether or not that the sun actually existed was the others stories of it, which had been handed down to them the same way, and homemade drawings. THere was no pics, science books or anything else like that, just the words of the elders.
If, at this point, any of these people actually believed that the sun really existed, it would be based on faith alone. They would have no concrete evidence to support their beliefs. To ask them to logically support their belief in the existence of the sun, what would they have to use? Nothing. They have been told, and may believe, that an apple that they are eating had been grown with the help of the sun, but they have no proof. They may show you the apple, and explain how the sun supposedly plays a role in its growth. But logically, they would have no leg to stand on.
Some of the underground dwellers may believe in the sun's existence. They have faith that it actually exists, despite the lack of concrete evidence. And the circumstantial evidence could be just as easily argued against. Then there may be others who feel that they won't believe in the sun until they actually see it and experience its warmth first hand.
To bring them to the surface to let them actually see the sun is irrelevent. Some based their beliefs based on faith, others based theirs on logic. Point is, once they all saw the sun with their own eyes, the concept of "faith" no longer existed. It wasn't needed in believing the existence of the sun. Now they all believed. Those who had faith had their beliefs verified, while the others who needed proof of the sun's existence got it (if they all had come to the surface during nighttime...
So you can see why you won't get a logical argument in favor of a religion. Like those people who haven't yet come to the surface, all they have to base their beliefs on is "faith". If logic could be applied, "faith" no longer applies to the belief.
With the story, we knew what they would find once they came to the surface. But none of us knows for sure what happens once we die. We all just have our beliefs to go by.
A true logician CAN and WILL present a logical argument in favor of their beliefs, no matter how illogical they may seem. I'm asking them to step outside of faith and at least apply some logic to thier beliefs. It can and has been done, even with christianity. There have been many great catholic theologians who have contributed a great deal to logic and philosophy throughout history.
krishna
New member
Recruit said:
If God is omnipresent - all-present (meaning he is everywhere) - then why would someone have to go to church or talk to a pastor to experience him? If you opened up your heart to his presence at a concert (or anywhere for that matter) like others have claimed to have done, why would you not feel him there also? How can you say others haven't felt the same presence you talk about while they were at a concert? Expand your mind bro. What if you got stranded on a desert island with no bible and no church? Should you not be able to walk with God then? And if you could walk with God then, why can't you walk with God now? Or at a concert? Or anywhere for that matter? Don't limit your experiences to a building; that's what the institution of religion wants you to do. They want you to conform and obey their rules. They want you to donate and contribute your time to their needs. Free yourself! God is outside of that building. God is in the children that need your help, or in the old lady that needs help crossing the road. God is in the river as you sit and watch the ripples dance with your thoughts. God is in the trees, flowers, weeds, birds, mountains, plains, horizons; He is everywhere!
Similar threads
