Drugs don't work!!!

[Nelson Montana]

[b]

so what?

1. Your typical argument in your first post was building up the idea that breast cancer drugs are bad and listing some of the things they are designed for with encompassing the whole scope of their uses. Kind of a misrepresentation of the matter as an argument, beating it down and claiming victory - otherwise known as straw man rhetoric, a common logical fallacy. So you haven't proven that a is better than b yet.

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i did no such thing. If anything your argument can be considered a strawman argument simply stating that it's misrepresentation and leaving it at that. Then you addied accusations which have been proven wrong. So this line of arguing goes nowhere. Next....
[/i]


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2. Your misrepresentation of breast cancer drugs goes into avoiding aromatase inhibitors completely in your argument. Which are very affective at some of the things we intend to do with pct.


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I've recommended ai in the past. In fact, at one time people said i crazy to do so and that only serms worked. No you're making an argument for ai. Interesting. You're essentially arguing my point.
[/b]


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3. Your argument of "natural is the way to go" is silly at best. It's like how some organic pesticides are much worse than synthetic ones. "well we should use this because its 'natural'" doesn't mean anything and isn't a valid argument unless you have studies, examples, data to back its superiority of the other product. Which leads to my next point:

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I[i]t's not just about being natural. That was never my point. You missed that one big time. I've said hundreds of tiems that at some point the body has to take over in a natural state. That, is undeniable.
[/b]

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4. The studying of affects on pct that you've done and the reporting of findings is so poorly done that why would someone believe you if you weren't on this board for so long and have had some many posts and pull on the aas board? How would i possibly discern your studies findings from the special interests you have in pushing these supplements?

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[b]you got it backwards bro. Unlike 99% of the people in the supplement business i actually design my supps based on years of study and experiements. If you read my books i recommended many f the ingredients way before i even had the supplements out.


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Is there not some kind of special interest or bias in your "studies" from the very beginning? (hint: There is). What's your sample size? Have you any formal training in statistical methods around studies, especially ones of this magnitude?

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[i]that's bullshit. So who's studies do you believe? People who get grants to prove one thing or another? "university studies which are just very loosely conducted in colleges also to prove one thing or another? One or two random, sloppily run med study by doctors who don't know dick about steroids? This argument is getting so old. [/i]


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5. Perhaps it was premature of me to assume that you had not done pct. I was under the assumption that you were on hrt which you would not have to do pct. My apologies for the assumption and the original argument that now holds no water.

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yeah, i actually had a life before hrt. I wasn't born old! : )


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How? I never claimed that i knew anything about the subject of pct. My argument is against your [lack of] logic to prove points.

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[b]i think i use pretty cogent logic. You either follow it or you don't. Some people used to think morons like fonzie and ulter were "logical" because they cut and pasted studies. I think beyond that.


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If you've done your homework, nelson, then your first post would, at the very least, include hcg in its prescription form and aromatase inhibitors [both are drugs that do work, and work very well by the way]. Or else i suggest you retitle the article/thread "nelson montana's opinion on how to do an all herbal pct"

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[b]you're showing your lack of knowledge again. I do recommend real hcg and ai. So, you seem to be arguing with the wrong person.
[/i]

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I don't doubt the effectiveness of the drugs or supplements listed in the first post. I haven't used them so i can't comment one way or another.


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ah ha!

Isn't that always the case?

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[UA_Iron]

i did no such thing. If anything your argument can be considered a strawman argument simply stating that it's misrepresentation and leaving it at that. Then you addied accusations which have been proven wrong. So this line of arguing goes nowhere. Next....

"Drugs don't work"

Was this just an asinine statement, or an attention getter to get me into this thread? Pretty general statement don't you think? You took clomid and nolvadex as examples and then said "drugs don't work" - maybe not explicitly but it was implied. It's an all encompassing statement you should have left it at "clomid and nolvadex don't work."

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I've recommended ai in the past. In fact, at one time people said i crazy to do so and that only serms worked. No you're making an argument for ai. Interesting. You're essentially arguing my point.

Your point in this thread was that "drugs dont work" and "use these herbal alternatives" if thats what I got from this thread then thats what every newbie looking for advice is going to get from it too. I'm still boggled why you didn't mention AI's and HCG in the the first post. If you've championed those in the past then I applaud you for being on the cutting edge of PCT, but then I question your negligence for skipping over them in the first post. Is that so you could follow up with the statement of "PCT is a time to get off drugs..."?

So you admit that drugs like AI's and HCG work well for recovery, but you're also saying you shouldn't take more drugs for PCT? Not sure which position you want to hold.

It's not just about being natural. That was never my point. You missed that one big time. I've said hundreds of tiems that at some point the body has to take over in a natural state. That, is undeniable.


Why would I disagree that the body has to take over in a natural state after using anabolics? The very definition of Post cycle therapy is the use of aids to return to that pre-steroid natural state.

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you got it backwards bro. Unlike 99% of the people in the supplement business i actually design my supps based on years of study and experiements. If you read my books i recommended many f the ingredients way before i even had the supplements out.

Admittedly, I have not read your books.

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that's bullshit. So who's studies do you believe? People who get grants to prove one thing or another? "university studies which are just very loosely conducted in colleges also to prove one thing or another? One or two random, sloppily run med study by doctors who don't know dick about steroids? This argument is getting so old.

I dont know, you haven't posted any studies to back up any claims as far as I can tell. I don't have to disprove you, you have to prove your assertions. That's how logic works.

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I think i use pretty cogent logic. You either follow it or you don't. Some people used to think morons like fonzie and ulter were "logical" because they cut and pasted studies. I think beyond that.

Fonz... lol, and before that it was JuicedAuthority. At least you look like you play the part, Nelson. I give you props.

The ulter camp I still hold in high regards generally. I think Macro is a very intelligent person. (I don't hang out over there despite what some of you may think).

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you're showing your lack of knowledge again. I do recommend real hcg and ai. So, you seem to be arguing with the wrong person.


"Drugs don't work" "PCT is a time to get off drugs..." - or are these statements out of context?

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ah ha!

Isn't that always the case?


I've said I've used post cycle and unleashed before and I liked them. But if you're going to be a salesman, especially in the case of this thread, you need to convince me better.

 

[UA_Iron]

I like arguing with you Nelson, sorry if I come off like a dick sometimes

 

[Nelson Montana]

i did no such thing. If anything your argument can be considered a strawman argument simply stating that it's misrepresentation and leaving it at that. Then you addied accusations which have been proven wrong. So this line of arguing goes nowhere. Next....

"Drugs don't work"

Was this just an asinine statement, or an attention getter to get me into this thread? Pretty general statement don't you think? You took clomid and nolvadex as examples and then said "drugs don't work" - maybe not explicitly but it was implied. It's an all encompassing statement you should have left it at "clomid and nolvadex don't work."

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I'LL TITLE MY POSTS THE WAY I WANT. YOU TITLE YOURS THE WAY YOU WANT.

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I've recommended ai in the past. In fact, at one time people said i crazy to do so and that only serms worked. No you're making an argument for ai. Interesting. You're essentially arguing my point.

Your point in this thread was that "drugs dont work" and "use these herbal alternatives" if thats what I got from this thread then thats what every newbie looking for advice is going to get from it too. I'm still boggled why you didn't mention AI's and HCG in the the first post. If you've championed those in the past then I applaud you for being on the cutting edge of PCT, but then I question your negligence for skipping over them in the first post. Is that so you could follow up with the statement of "PCT is a time to get off drugs..."?

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NOW YOU'RE JUST PICKING ON SHIT TO PICK ON SHIT. I'M NOT HERE TO EXPLAIN EVERY LITTLE DETAIL TO YOU PERSONALLY.


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Why would I disagree that the body has to take over in a natural state after using anabolics? The very definition of Post cycle therapy is the use of aids to return to that pre-steroid natural state.

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YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND BE DEPENDENT ON DRUGS AT THE SAME TIME.


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Admittedly, I have not read your books.

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YOU SHOULD.


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I think i use pretty cogent logic. You either follow it or you don't. Some people used to think morons like fonzie and ulter were "logical" because they cut and pasted studies. I think beyond that.

Fonz... lol, and before that it was JuicedAuthority. At least you look like you play the part, Nelson. I give you props.

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ALRIGHTY THEN.


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I've said I've used post cycle and unleashed before and I liked them. But if you're going to be a salesman, especially in the case of this thread, you need to convince me better.

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THEY WORKED FOR YOU BUT YOU NEED TO BE CONVINCED FURTHER? DUDE, TALK ABOUT A LACK OF LOGIC!!! LOL!

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[Branharris]

Thank you!!

 

[KratosGOW]

Too much of speculating but..
Nelson i want to thank you and also UA_iron of all the infos above
and i think your arguing is too much for any of us in terms of "steroids"
nobody will ever want to understand all of that even if they read it...
Nobody will trust you and everybody will act as they think it's right..
At the moment of truth your words will be passing through their heads but nothing will change
they will still do their own thing until they really feel what they need to take,and what can be really effective..
Those are studies that u're debating....reality is different for everyone.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Too much of speculating but..
Nelson i want to thank you and also UA_iron of all the infos above
and i think your arguing is too much for any of us in terms of "steroids"
nobody will ever want to understand all of that even if they read it...
Nobody will trust you and everybody will act as they think it's right..
At the moment of truth your words will be passing through their heads but nothing will change
they will still do their own thing until they really feel what they need to take,and what can be really effective..
Those are studies that u're debating....reality is different for everyone.

Absolutely true. It's very difficult to get people to question what's familiar. It takes thought, analysis, investigation, introspection and experience. Most people aren't goin to attempt that. It's easier to just say "this is what I've been told and that's that.

But it's my gig to do those things and to pass the information on to those who are curious. It's really for the more advanced guys.

Of course there will always be the guys who question it and it's my job to explain it -- even if it doesn't get through.

In some ways, I feel like this is arguing about religion. There's really no evidence of a god and all the the available information is contradictory and doesn't really prove anything. But there are those who will say "Hey, it's in the bible and you can't argue with that." Nothing is going to chance that person's opinion -- but I still have to say what my logic, experience and common sense tells me what's right.

 

[KratosGOW]

But it's my gig to do those things and to pass the information on to those who are curious. It's really for the more advanced guys.

I'm one of them and i thank you

Of course there will always be the guys who question it and it's my job to explain it -- even if it doesn't get through.

Do it 'cuz you can really help (not just talk like others).

In some ways, I feel like this is arguing about religion. There's really no evidence of a god and all the the available information is contradictory and doesn't really prove anything. But there are those who will say "Hey, it's in the bible and you can't argue with that." Nothing is going to chance that person's opinion -- but I still have to say what my logic, experience and common sense tells me what's right.

Best example u could have done,that's for sure the truth.
But in time all of your theories will come in front of anabolic users
and then...?hehe....u get it,happy i've read it all.

 

[the1andonlykid]

Nelson, can you use HCG on cycle, the HCGenerate + Post Cycle + Forma Stanzol during PCT?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson, can you use HCG on cycle, the HCGenerate + Post Cycle + Forma Stanzol during PCT?

I think HCGen works better whilr on to slow suppression on cycle. Forma can be a little suppressive if you stay on for too long so it's best on cycle and then come off for PCT. UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE for PCT and then BRIDGE.