Drugs don't work!!!

[trex74]

Did you actually register and read this study?

The effect of selective estrogen receptor modulato... [Fertil Steril. 2009] - PubMed result

Or did you just read the other posts in other forums that quoted that study?

 

[Nelson Montana]

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate.

Tenover JS, Matsumoto AM, Plymate SR, Bremner WJ.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

Healthy young men given CC. After 7 days TT rose by 100-304%.

Jesus, are we going to go over the same shit over and over? Did you actually read this or are we just playing," cut and paste any study?"

This proved my point once again. Elevation occurred in young men, not older men -- meaning that they recovered after several months, which would occur naturally in young men. ANd there's no mention of how they felt in the interim.

And for the fifth time, no report on what the levels were one month after cessation of use.

You're not getting this, are you?

 

[Nelson Montana]

I'm not sure any of you subscribe to Dr. Michael Scally's work, but here is one of his patients treated with HCG, Clomid, Tamox:


STREET C, SCALLY MC. Pharmaceutical Intervention of Anabolic Steroid Induced
Hypogonadism - Our Success at Restoration of the HPG Axis. Medicine and Science in Sports
and Exercise 2000;32(5)Suppl.
High-dose anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) administration results in hypogonadotropic
hypogonadism (HH). Physical manifestations can include one or more of the following:
depression, decreased sexual desire, impotence, feelings of apathy, testicular atrophy, and loss of
muscle mass and strength. Due to feedback inhibition, laboratory values drop well below
established physiologic norms: luteinizing hormone (LH) >3.6 IU/L, follicle stimulating
hormone (FSH) >2.25 IU/L, and testosterone (T) >300 ng/dL. A search of the literature reveals
an absence of studies dealing specifically with AAS induced HH, and restoration of normal
endocrine function. We report on two interesting cases of AAS using bodybuilders who were
brought out of the hypogonadal state. Blood samples were taken in the morning for both subjects
and analyzed using chemiluminescence (Quest Diagnostics, Irvine, TX). Post-therapy samples
were taken 15 days after the last hCG injection.

Case 1: 6'0" 206 lbs. 33 yr old Caucasian male
with a 10+ year history of steroid self-administration for bodybuilding and powerlifting. By his
own admission he was a "heavy" user, taking from 500 mg/wk to 2+ grams/wk. Pre-treatment
values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 191 ng/dL. One course of therapy (32 days) was given: 2,500 IU of
hCG every 4 days (8 injections total), 50 mg clomiphene bid and 10 mg tamoxifen qd. Despite
massive drug use patient was an exceptionally good responder. Post-treatment values: LH 5.2
IU/L, T 1072 ng/dL.

Case 2: 5'10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk). Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL.

Treat 1
(32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL.

Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
(10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL.

Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
T 507 ng/dL.

Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
with combined therapies and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
research is needed in this area.

Oh good. I can make my point for the sixth time. In this case they used HCG, which certainly will raise T. Other than that they got nothing -- just some hopeful speculation with no evidence other the last line of the study. Read it again.

Anything else ya got?

 

[deejleos]

iamnothere what exactly is ur point? Are u saying in order to gave a successful PCT u must use prescription drugs, and supplements like Unleashed don't work? Cuz I'm just getting confused with all fancy reports u keep posting.

 

[Nelson Montana]

When 90% of this board, falls into the category of "young men", why does that matter?

...................................

BECAUSE NOBODY DOES A 6 MONTH PCT.



................................................

SERMs, AI's are also given to aging men as a form of HRT, as opposed to TE injections too. But I agree the results on T when comparing ageing males and young males is not the same.

........................

ONLY OLD DOCTORS WHO ARE CLUELESS STILL PRESCRIBE CLOMID FOR HRT. ANYONE WORTH THEIR SALT PRESCRIBES ENTH.


I'VE DELETED THE REST OF THE POST BECAUSE IT'S GOING OVER THE SAME POINTS AND IT'S GETTING TEDIOUS.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I just want to let everyone know, that reason for these deletions is that the posts have become very antagonistic. By that, I mean the poster is simply ignoring what is being said and asking the same questions and making the same points (already disputed) over and over even though they've been addressed.

I know where this is going. It's a never ending game of ignoring the facts and badgering and prodding while hiding behind the "I didn't break any rules" excuse.

You said your piece. Enough.

Whenever this happens it's ALWAYS someone who just joined -- which suggests he's a trouble making troll or an ex banned member looking to be spiteful.

 

[ronc26k]

Someone needs to ban him....

 

[Nelson Montana]

Someone needs to ban him....

He's gone.

We have a lot of tolerance here and welcome all opinions, debates, discussions and even arguments. But when someone is warned 10 times to stop antagonizing and their only retort is to antagonize -- DONE.

I'm just sorry the discussion got derailed. Hopefully it'll get back on track.

 

[busdriver320]

Wow, that's how you treat someone who has a different opinion,and tries to state some facts?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Wow, that's how you treat someone who has a different opinion,and tries to state some facts?

Nope. That's how someone who insults other members gets treated. There's a difference.

Also, his "facts" were indeed incorrect and I pointed out how and why. He chose to ignore that and keep stating the same thing over and over . That's not conversation. That's badgering and it's disruptive. After 5 warnings it's clear he didn't want to engage in any sensible conversation.

Hope that clears it up.