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WONDERFUL post, bro! Madcow, you are the MAN!!!
Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Under any and all normal circumstances you should be more than fine. The original tweaker of the 5x5, JS182 at Meso, avoids this workout for athletes close to a weightclass restriction. I used exactly this workout about a year and a half ago (only exception being incline instead of military) with a good margin for acceptable weight gain and ended up having to slash my diet in a major fashion to keep from putting on too much weight (I started curtailing at week 3 and had to take more drastic measures at week 6 because it just wouldn't stop). This program excels at building strength and lean body mass. pure and simple, plus it fits well into schedules very well.
Of course the caveate to any and all normal includes someone on a mild to severe starvation diet and/or someone immediately post cycle of anabolics. Neither of these are a fair environment to test any workout.
KhorneDeth said:
Under any and all normal circumstances you should be more than fine. The original tweaker of the 5x5, JS182 at Meso, avoids this workout for athletes close to a weightclass restriction. I used exactly this workout about a year and a half ago (only exception being incline instead of military) with a good margin for acceptable weight gain and ended up having to slash my diet in a major fashion to keep from putting on too much weight (I started curtailing at week 3 and had to take more drastic measures at week 6 because it just wouldn't stop). This program excels at building strength and lean body mass. pure and simple, plus it fits well into schedules very well.
Of course the caveate to any and all normal includes someone on a mild to severe starvation diet and/or someone immediately post cycle of anabolics. Neither of these are a fair environment to test any workout.
KhorneDeth
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I'm currently running a keto diet, eating 10.5x bodyweight in cals, 1g protein per lb LBM. I don't feel like I'm severely undereating. In your opinion could it be possible to see any strength increases with this training protocol?
Maybe to take the point further, would you recommend this training to someone on a cutting diet or no?
Thanks for the input so far -- everything I've seen here seems real solid.
-- KhorneDeth
Madcow2 said:
I'm currently running a keto diet, eating 10.5x bodyweight in cals, 1g protein per lb LBM. I don't feel like I'm severely undereating. In your opinion could it be possible to see any strength increases with this training protocol?
Maybe to take the point further, would you recommend this training to someone on a cutting diet or no?
Thanks for the input so far -- everything I've seen here seems real solid.
-- KhorneDeth
Something else to consider is your training history. A novice lifter would be better served by the alternative regimine listed on the previous page, especially one who is eating a lean diet. If you have some serious lifting time under your belt you should be fine. Start your weights conservatively., maybe consider the 2 day 3x3 phase depending upon how you feel after the week 5 deloading.
The real problem is that it's hard to make blanket statements or guarantees, what's fine for 90% might be an issue for 10%. What is tolerable for world level lifter would bury me and what's tolerable for me might bury a lot of others - and there is some major variation between lifters at every level including the very top. I think you should be fine and it will give you everything you want and more but there are a lot of variables mixed in the soup so take that for what it's worth. Anyone who tells you otherwise with such limited info isn't being straight with you or isn't someone who should be giving advice.
The real problem is that it's hard to make blanket statements or guarantees, what's fine for 90% might be an issue for 10%. What is tolerable for world level lifter would bury me and what's tolerable for me might bury a lot of others - and there is some major variation between lifters at every level including the very top. I think you should be fine and it will give you everything you want and more but there are a lot of variables mixed in the soup so take that for what it's worth. Anyone who tells you otherwise with such limited info isn't being straight with you or isn't someone who should be giving advice.
Carl Carlson
New member
Maybe I missed it, but one of the routines (REPOST OF ANIMALMASS' EXPLANATION OF THE 5X5
lists "JS Rows"... what are those exactly? Barbell rows?
lists "JS Rows"... what are those exactly? Barbell rows?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Description in Link - but yes a variation of Barbell rows. You can do this version or a more standard version like the one I detail in a post on the previous page (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601). Basically as close as you can comfortably get to 90 degrees, do not rise up when you row, accelerate the row into you (more simply - avoid the glorified upright humping that serves as many BBers' row). The JS version is without doubt better but some people aren't willing to experiment with rowing from the floor and utilizing the erectors.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4391839&postcount=19Carl Carlson said:Maybe I missed it, but one of the routines (REPOST OF ANIMALMASS' EXPLANATION OF THE 5X5
Description in Link - but yes a variation of Barbell rows. You can do this version or a more standard version like the one I detail in a post on the previous page (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601). Basically as close as you can comfortably get to 90 degrees, do not rise up when you row, accelerate the row into you (more simply - avoid the glorified upright humping that serves as many BBers' row). The JS version is without doubt better but some people aren't willing to experiment with rowing from the floor and utilizing the erectors.
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Texas Ranger
New member
Madcow, thank you posting all the info on 5 x 5 training! I know it will help MANY guys on the board. I know it has definitely changed the way I view my training. I wanted to ask you a question and kind of put you on the spot. Let's say my goal was size & strength while making sure each bodypart was worked thoroughly. If you had to choose one version, which one would it be? I have 12 years of training experience off and on, but never really focused on strength. Mostly, typical bodybuilding type workouts with reps between 8-20 depending on which bodypart was worked.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
The array of exercises in the workout leaves virtually nothing untouched (if you insist on doing direct arm work throw in a session a week 3 sets 8-10 of 1 exercise for bi/tris each but these get hammered in pressing and pulling so this is just cosmetic and to appease the BBers). As far as working each bodypart thoroughly, it's pretty much covered but in reality, who cares? As long as you are growing and getting stronger uniformly over your entire body if one body part never got worked yet somehow managed to get bigger and stronger (hypothetical) who would complain.
Increasing poundages in the core lifts is essential to long-term hypertrophy. A muscle's whole purpose is to generate force and perform work (Force = Mass X Acceleration, Work = Force X Distance). The mass part of the equation simply must move as you can't keep adding reps and sets to generate hypertrophy over anything but a short period as the acceptable range for the stimulus isn't very wide (this is why 20 or greater rep sets are non-existant - this is the distance part of the work equation - ever see a super muscular marathon runner). Of course the acceleration part of the equation plays a major part as evidenced by the multiplication sign so it's something to also actively incorporate. Granted I'm not talking about a huge emphasis on singles and conditioning the CNS for maximum lifts (I'll bite it now before someone takes it to the extreme) but rep ranges of 8-3 reps are excellent for building muscle. Hell, I lose track much after 6 anyway.
Since progress in the core compound lifts will drive the overwhelming majority of your gains there is little sense in diluting your limited recovery ability until a specific need arrises. That need can then be addressed with targeted assistance work and/or variations of the lifts.
Pretty much a no brainer. Providing one can set one's weights reasonably this thing is autopilot. It's great for athletics (substitute the powerclean and/or highpulls in there to cover the big 3) and strength while providing a level of hypertrophy that is very hard to equal. Another bonus is that it is a very clear example of loading/unloading protocol and gives the trainee experience that will enable him understand his own tolerances to replicate the basic program design for later more specific use. You end up having to work really hard to screw this program up.
The array of exercises in the workout leaves virtually nothing untouched (if you insist on doing direct arm work throw in a session a week 3 sets 8-10 of 1 exercise for bi/tris each but these get hammered in pressing and pulling so this is just cosmetic and to appease the BBers). As far as working each bodypart thoroughly, it's pretty much covered but in reality, who cares? As long as you are growing and getting stronger uniformly over your entire body if one body part never got worked yet somehow managed to get bigger and stronger (hypothetical) who would complain.
Increasing poundages in the core lifts is essential to long-term hypertrophy. A muscle's whole purpose is to generate force and perform work (Force = Mass X Acceleration, Work = Force X Distance). The mass part of the equation simply must move as you can't keep adding reps and sets to generate hypertrophy over anything but a short period as the acceptable range for the stimulus isn't very wide (this is why 20 or greater rep sets are non-existant - this is the distance part of the work equation - ever see a super muscular marathon runner). Of course the acceleration part of the equation plays a major part as evidenced by the multiplication sign so it's something to also actively incorporate. Granted I'm not talking about a huge emphasis on singles and conditioning the CNS for maximum lifts (I'll bite it now before someone takes it to the extreme) but rep ranges of 8-3 reps are excellent for building muscle. Hell, I lose track much after 6 anyway.
Since progress in the core compound lifts will drive the overwhelming majority of your gains there is little sense in diluting your limited recovery ability until a specific need arrises. That need can then be addressed with targeted assistance work and/or variations of the lifts.
Pretty much a no brainer. Providing one can set one's weights reasonably this thing is autopilot. It's great for athletics (substitute the powerclean and/or highpulls in there to cover the big 3) and strength while providing a level of hypertrophy that is very hard to equal. Another bonus is that it is a very clear example of loading/unloading protocol and gives the trainee experience that will enable him understand his own tolerances to replicate the basic program design for later more specific use. You end up having to work really hard to screw this program up.
Texas Ranger
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I think I'll try Animalmasss version of the 5 x 5. It looks like it has everything covered. heavy Squats, rows, deads, bench, and even some arm work.Madcow2 said:
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