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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
- Thread starter BionicBC
- Start date
blut wump
New member
[**insert epithets of choice here**]This week 9 is all about just one thing and that's willpower.
Part of your mind is listening to your body telling you not to be crazy and just to walk away from the weight. Another part of your mind is telling that first part to shut up and trying to reassure you that you can do the lift. Finally, there's a third part, which feels as though it's on fire, which actually guides you through the lift itself. Once you start the movement you're just a passenger, straining to listen only to that third part.
Today was hard work.
Part of your mind is listening to your body telling you not to be crazy and just to walk away from the weight. Another part of your mind is telling that first part to shut up and trying to reassure you that you can do the lift. Finally, there's a third part, which feels as though it's on fire, which actually guides you through the lift itself. Once you start the movement you're just a passenger, straining to listen only to that third part.
Today was hard work.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Deadlift up 160kg. 160kg x 2.2=352lbs. So your @ 352 lbs, or its gone UP 352lbs?
Tripled your bench??!?!?! Hmm....
I really want to see your workout log.
********WHY ISNT THIS POST A STICKY YET?!?!?!?**********
Bionic
Blut Wump said:
Deadlift up 160kg. 160kg x 2.2=352lbs. So your @ 352 lbs, or its gone UP 352lbs?
Tripled your bench??!?!?! Hmm....
I really want to see your workout log.
********WHY ISNT THIS POST A STICKY YET?!?!?!?**********
Bionic
blut wump - Very nice progress. I'm assuming you are doing the 3x per week deloading protocol. Just hazarding a guess, you didn't cut much volume or take much in the way of extra days. You'll likely need to deload again if moving straight into another volume phase. If you intend to start light at week 1 (based on success of previous program) you could likely get away with a single week of light training between week 9 and the beginning. Train 2x per week low volume, squat once. All lifts should be light and done for speed/acceleration/explosion. If you are familiar with the olympic lifts it would be a good time to work some in. If you intend to start relatively heavy at week 1, you may wish to deload on the 2x per week for 2 weeks rather than 1 as you seem to be pushed very hard right now. Excellent success, I just don't want you to compromise another loading cycle by going into it without recovery.
Also, if you are pulling 2x body weight in the DL for your weekly sets you should decrease the volume phase to 3 sets of 5 rather than 5x5 as the DL can get very taxing.
I'm going to post a link below to an interesting squat specific routine. It's a worthwhile read and a good illustration of how dual factor loading/deloading schemes are used in a more complicated environment (breaking into multiple micro/meso cycles in structure over a longer training cycle).
Also, if you are pulling 2x body weight in the DL for your weekly sets you should decrease the volume phase to 3 sets of 5 rather than 5x5 as the DL can get very taxing.
I'm going to post a link below to an interesting squat specific routine. It's a worthwhile read and a good illustration of how dual factor loading/deloading schemes are used in a more complicated environment (breaking into multiple micro/meso cycles in structure over a longer training cycle).
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
SMOLOV SQUAT CYCLE
This is a very very demanding offseason training cycle focusing almost entirely on improving the squat. Huge PR gains in the squat have been reported from those using it.
I post it here simply because it is a good example of setting up longer more complicated training cycles with dual factor theory using multiple micro/mesocycles in structure. Various loading and deloading structures are needed when planning longer training cycles and this is a very easy to understand example (similar to the 5x5 but just a notch up) complete with glossary. I imagine this will be helpful to many here in planning more general training periods despite the degree of specificity in the example program.
It's probably easiest to just view the original source thread as the matricies are better and clearer than my text implementations below.
EDIT: I also began a dedicated thread for this as page 6 in this thread may get less views and it is a good read. Dedicated topic is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382280
NOTE: RUSSIANS LIST SETS AND REPS IN REVERSE SO 70%x5x8 IS ACTUALLY 8 SETS OF 5 NOT 5 SETS OF 8.
Source Thread: http://www.ontariostrongman.ca/Resources/training/smolovsquatcycle.htm
SMOLOV SQUAT CYCLE
This is a very very demanding offseason training cycle focusing almost entirely on improving the squat. Huge PR gains in the squat have been reported from those using it.
I post it here simply because it is a good example of setting up longer more complicated training cycles with dual factor theory using multiple micro/mesocycles in structure. Various loading and deloading structures are needed when planning longer training cycles and this is a very easy to understand example (similar to the 5x5 but just a notch up) complete with glossary. I imagine this will be helpful to many here in planning more general training periods despite the degree of specificity in the example program.
It's probably easiest to just view the original source thread as the matricies are better and clearer than my text implementations below.
EDIT: I also began a dedicated thread for this as page 6 in this thread may get less views and it is a good read. Dedicated topic is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382280
NOTE: RUSSIANS LIST SETS AND REPS IN REVERSE SO 70%x5x8 IS ACTUALLY 8 SETS OF 5 NOT 5 SETS OF 8.
Source Thread: http://www.ontariostrongman.ca/Resources/training/smolovsquatcycle.htm
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blut wump
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I did 160Kg x 3 x 3 in deadlift. That's also my increase since I'd never done deadlifts before.
When I wrote that I'd tripled my old bench 1RM, I meant that I'd done three reps not that I was using three-fold the weight.
To clarify (I'm a bit drained)BionicBC said:
I did 160Kg x 3 x 3 in deadlift. That's also my increase since I'd never done deadlifts before.
When I wrote that I'd tripled my old bench 1RM, I meant that I'd done three reps not that I was using three-fold the weight.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
You suggest, if going heavy on the deadlifts, to do 3 sets of 5 instead of 5x5, is this for Volume and deloading phase? Then, when you move to intensity phase, do you stick with 3x3?
Bionic
You suggest, if going heavy on the deadlifts, to do 3 sets of 5 instead of 5x5, is this for Volume and deloading phase? Then, when you move to intensity phase, do you stick with 3x3?
Bionic
Madcow2 said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
If you working weight (not 1RM) is going to be > 2x bodyweight during the volume phase then 3x5 will likely put less strain on the system. The DL is very taxing and with the abundance of squating for very strong trainees may prove detrimental. I believe it's been mentioned before (Animalmass has it in there I believe on page 1) but I didn't make a big point of it in my own posts. There is no alteration for the intensity phase. This 3x5 adjustment may or may not matter to a given individual but the stronger a lifter is the more taxing and DL becomes on the CNS which is one of the reasons why Westside used to try to avoid it like the plague as their elite lifters hoist some major tonnage and can burn themselves out easily if training it consistently (another reason why I don't understand them not using olympic lifts or more dynamic pulling variants).
BionicBC said:
If you working weight (not 1RM) is going to be > 2x bodyweight during the volume phase then 3x5 will likely put less strain on the system. The DL is very taxing and with the abundance of squating for very strong trainees may prove detrimental. I believe it's been mentioned before (Animalmass has it in there I believe on page 1) but I didn't make a big point of it in my own posts. There is no alteration for the intensity phase. This 3x5 adjustment may or may not matter to a given individual but the stronger a lifter is the more taxing and DL becomes on the CNS which is one of the reasons why Westside used to try to avoid it like the plague as their elite lifters hoist some major tonnage and can burn themselves out easily if training it consistently (another reason why I don't understand them not using olympic lifts or more dynamic pulling variants).
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Bionic
For some variation, what would benefit me the most after these 10 weeks? (Im on Week 7 starting today) I would like to go to a regular split for a few weeks and then hit this routine up again. but what do you suggest? I miss upright rows, leg extentions, and other basic things. What place do these, and other lifts have as far as incorporating / cycling these with the 5x5 routine?Madcow2 said:
Bionic
blut wump
New member
I weigh 122.5 Kg (270 lb) so I'm not anywhere near 2x bodyweight in the deadlift. I don't really know my BF% but I'd guess around 22-24%. I'll just play it by ear with the deadlifts. I'm so new to them, anyway.
Thanks for the advice to take a recovery week (or two) before launching back into another run at the program. I'm not sure I'll be able to resist attempting a new 1RM on the bench next Monday, though. I'm planning to switch gyms next week, having found a real gym rather than a "leisure center" not too far away, and was thinking of spending a week really just playing with the new facilities so this fits in nicely.
I'll print out and take a good read through the squat posting. I also came across a link in another thread to a 10-week deadlifting routine from Coan and Philippi which struck me as following the dual-factor theory.
http://www.powerpage.net/coanphildead.html
Assuredly too advanced for me at this stage but interesting nonetheless.
I followed your program as closely as I could and did only 3 gym visits per week. Off days I'd do maybe 40-60 minutes walking with spouse and dogs but that was about it. You can laugh at the places where I went wrong when I post the logs.
I'm very pleased with the progress I've made as when I started I really had no idea whether I'd be able to cope with the work I knew it would place on my back since I was (and am) still coming through a rehab for a chronic bad lower back. I decided, also, from the start, that I wouldn't use a belt. The difference it's made is highly gratifying.
Thanks for the advice to take a recovery week (or two) before launching back into another run at the program. I'm not sure I'll be able to resist attempting a new 1RM on the bench next Monday, though. I'm planning to switch gyms next week, having found a real gym rather than a "leisure center" not too far away, and was thinking of spending a week really just playing with the new facilities so this fits in nicely.
I'll print out and take a good read through the squat posting. I also came across a link in another thread to a 10-week deadlifting routine from Coan and Philippi which struck me as following the dual-factor theory.
http://www.powerpage.net/coanphildead.html
Assuredly too advanced for me at this stage but interesting nonetheless.
I followed your program as closely as I could and did only 3 gym visits per week. Off days I'd do maybe 40-60 minutes walking with spouse and dogs but that was about it. You can laugh at the places where I went wrong when I post the logs.
I'm very pleased with the progress I've made as when I started I really had no idea whether I'd be able to cope with the work I knew it would place on my back since I was (and am) still coming through a rehab for a chronic bad lower back. I decided, also, from the start, that I wouldn't use a belt. The difference it's made is highly gratifying.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
See how you feel closer to the end before making a call.
My personal opinions are that leg extensions are more appropriate for rehab purposes (I use them in for periods to balance out my quads as I can get lateral tracking of the knee cap over the patella due to an imbalance). They are fairly close to total garbage otherwise and put your knee in a very bad position - funny how most people think this is better than full squatting but this is the king of shit for your knees.
Upright rows - better to invest some time in learning how to do OLs and variants. You can work 1/10th as hard (or 1/10th as dedicated would be better) and make 20x the progress. The applicable best lifts would be snatches performed from the hang and snatch grip high pulls. I also like the muscle snatch and performing it very slow without momentum as I feel it's a good exercise for strengthening the rotators and other small muscles. Overhead squating is also decent. If you to www.usaweightlifting.org (or visit the OL forum at www.goheavy.com they might point you to a coach in your area). Coaching is very cheap and they want to promote the sport and are totally psyched to see anyone interested so you will be well received. The clean/snatch and the variations are invaluable. They lower the load from deadlifting, are concentric only and easier to recover from, and the back/traps/shoulders respond like nothing else to dynamic pulling. A huge addition to one's arsenal and with some a few sessions with a coach you can be up and running fast - plus, you might even like it and want to go further.
So steping down off the soapbox, as far as fitting in the exercises between 5x5 cycles you could do a 4 week period (or 2 two weeks) where you incorporate these and work on targeted weak points. I'd spend some time on strengthening the core, some speed work, maybe some interval sprinting. Basically a 4 week period of specialized tune up where you concentrate on some of the more detail lifts and train light/explosively in the core lifts concentrating on accelerating the bar throughout the range of motion. You can do 2 light weeks first to deload if you've suffered through the 3x3 phase or jump on it if you haven't. If you decide to run the 4 weeks like a more standard loading program, push hard but not too hard in weeks 2/3 and scale back in 4, starting the volume phase moderately for week 5 (week 1 of volume).
BionicBC said:
See how you feel closer to the end before making a call.
My personal opinions are that leg extensions are more appropriate for rehab purposes (I use them in for periods to balance out my quads as I can get lateral tracking of the knee cap over the patella due to an imbalance). They are fairly close to total garbage otherwise and put your knee in a very bad position - funny how most people think this is better than full squatting but this is the king of shit for your knees.
Upright rows - better to invest some time in learning how to do OLs and variants. You can work 1/10th as hard (or 1/10th as dedicated would be better) and make 20x the progress. The applicable best lifts would be snatches performed from the hang and snatch grip high pulls. I also like the muscle snatch and performing it very slow without momentum as I feel it's a good exercise for strengthening the rotators and other small muscles. Overhead squating is also decent. If you to www.usaweightlifting.org (or visit the OL forum at www.goheavy.com they might point you to a coach in your area). Coaching is very cheap and they want to promote the sport and are totally psyched to see anyone interested so you will be well received. The clean/snatch and the variations are invaluable. They lower the load from deadlifting, are concentric only and easier to recover from, and the back/traps/shoulders respond like nothing else to dynamic pulling. A huge addition to one's arsenal and with some a few sessions with a coach you can be up and running fast - plus, you might even like it and want to go further.
So steping down off the soapbox, as far as fitting in the exercises between 5x5 cycles you could do a 4 week period (or 2 two weeks) where you incorporate these and work on targeted weak points. I'd spend some time on strengthening the core, some speed work, maybe some interval sprinting. Basically a 4 week period of specialized tune up where you concentrate on some of the more detail lifts and train light/explosively in the core lifts concentrating on accelerating the bar throughout the range of motion. You can do 2 light weeks first to deload if you've suffered through the 3x3 phase or jump on it if you haven't. If you decide to run the 4 weeks like a more standard loading program, push hard but not too hard in weeks 2/3 and scale back in 4, starting the volume phase moderately for week 5 (week 1 of volume).
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
You might also concentrate on some core work during the deload and possibly even incorporate it into your next cycle. Hypers are excellent for rehab purposes and I've used them myself many times. Pullthroughs are also valuable. Goodmornings are also something to look into to strengthen the whole posterior chain. Spend some time checking out Westside barbell's programs - they do a lot of core conditioning and posterior chain work. Chances are your back will be stronger than ever now that you are incorporating full body pulling and direct core work which is essential.
Belts are helpful for max attempts or very heavy lifts. For standard training, try not to use one too much and just keep the weight to what you can do with good technique. Eventually you may wish to push yourself and a belt really helps to give you something to push your abs against when holding your air and tighten around your core but for basic conditioning I prefer to avoid unless one intends to specialize at some point.
The Coan/Phillippi is setup much the same way except that it is peaking for a competition. For this deloading is taken to a larger extreme to make sure one comes in at 100%. To be honest, most athletes rarely fully deload during a year except for critical competitions where top performance is expected. You can see an example in the Smolov article where I believe it covers the weeks just before competition - you'll notice the frequency dips considerably and the volume is slashed while intensity tends to remain high in general. The more you look, the more you'll find dual factor in very very common use worldwide. I don't exagerate when I say single factor training is mostly BBers who have never heard of dual factor training and couldn't name a good training book/researcher/or coach if their life depended on it. It is a damn desolate camp with very very few serious coaches using it (yeah the HIT proponents are there - someone hit them with a plate and knock some sense into the psuedoscience inclined).
Blut Wump said:
You might also concentrate on some core work during the deload and possibly even incorporate it into your next cycle. Hypers are excellent for rehab purposes and I've used them myself many times. Pullthroughs are also valuable. Goodmornings are also something to look into to strengthen the whole posterior chain. Spend some time checking out Westside barbell's programs - they do a lot of core conditioning and posterior chain work. Chances are your back will be stronger than ever now that you are incorporating full body pulling and direct core work which is essential.
Belts are helpful for max attempts or very heavy lifts. For standard training, try not to use one too much and just keep the weight to what you can do with good technique. Eventually you may wish to push yourself and a belt really helps to give you something to push your abs against when holding your air and tighten around your core but for basic conditioning I prefer to avoid unless one intends to specialize at some point.
The Coan/Phillippi is setup much the same way except that it is peaking for a competition. For this deloading is taken to a larger extreme to make sure one comes in at 100%. To be honest, most athletes rarely fully deload during a year except for critical competitions where top performance is expected. You can see an example in the Smolov article where I believe it covers the weeks just before competition - you'll notice the frequency dips considerably and the volume is slashed while intensity tends to remain high in general. The more you look, the more you'll find dual factor in very very common use worldwide. I don't exagerate when I say single factor training is mostly BBers who have never heard of dual factor training and couldn't name a good training book/researcher/or coach if their life depended on it. It is a damn desolate camp with very very few serious coaches using it (yeah the HIT proponents are there - someone hit them with a plate and knock some sense into the psuedoscience inclined).
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Tom Treutlein
New member
Just as I had thought - I have two other concerns which I forgot to address.
First off, I may have misunderstood something - for those unsure of their work capacity, a 2x/week split should be used during the INTENSITY PHASE as well as the fifth week, which is deloading? I was thinking you dropped to 2x/week frequency for one week, the fifth, then back up to 3x. The reverse would make more sense, though.
Second, what lifts do you set records for in the 3/4 and 8/9 weeks? I figured squat, bench, and row, and the rest are just bumped up 5-10 lbs. when you feel you can add it. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
First off, I may have misunderstood something - for those unsure of their work capacity, a 2x/week split should be used during the INTENSITY PHASE as well as the fifth week, which is deloading? I was thinking you dropped to 2x/week frequency for one week, the fifth, then back up to 3x. The reverse would make more sense, though.
Second, what lifts do you set records for in the 3/4 and 8/9 weeks? I figured squat, bench, and row, and the rest are just bumped up 5-10 lbs. when you feel you can add it. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
1) So the 2x per week variation would be run from week 5 (what I break out as a specific deloading week) through the end of the intensity phase. Week 5 is actually part of the intensity phase but I always mentally break it out because the weights are constant with final volume week and aren't part of my ramp up. The reason I offer the 2x is that it is really essential that one deloads fully and most people are following the 3x variation I happen to use verbatim without adequately monitoring themselves for extra days off and cutting volume as needed. Meaning - the 3x load is pushing people to the limit before they realize that they need to adjust, although they seem to have kept the weights light enough in the early 3x3 to recover from the volume phase which is ideal so they are really just reloading at the end. I'm sure a bit more experience with this style program will allow them to better monitor their own tolerances and gradually increase those tolerances over time but the 2x serves the purpose by simply taking judgement out of their hands and ensuring the total volume is adequate to deload nearly every individual. If you intend to use the 3x - either plan on some extra days here and there maybe slash off some volume as needed or be prepared to take a week or so between week 9 and your next volume phase with some light speed work (good contrast to heavy 3x3 and 1x3) in the core lifts and frequency at 2x per week. Of course, that all depends on your individual tolerances but if followed without deviation it tends to be too much for the vast majority of people. Those with some years of high volume/intensity training under their belts will likely fare better.
Basically my error in presenting a deloading cycle that I knew would overtax the majority and leaving it to judgement when I knew most people didn't have enough experience with this program style to judge properly and would likely follow it until it ran them down. As I've watched people work their way through the program, I've been kicking myself for making such a bonehead and obvious error. Oh well, an extra week or so to deload again won't kill anyone and there are definietly some strength and foundation benefits to be had from the 3x version with its single sets of triples.
2) Actually, you are ramping to records in all lifts and all days (except for the Wednesday squat which is a given % less than Monday's record 5x5). For the bench/squat/row you have two independent records that week - one is your 5x5 record and the other is your best 1x5 record (which will be higher than your 5x5 so these ramp independently of each other although there is obviously a relationship). Deadlifts, military, and chins are also ramped to 5x5 records although the chins IMO are a bit less important so if a weight belt isn't there just handle your best 5 sets or hang a dumbell between your calves. This is the same for the 3x3/1x3 intensity records - or the 2x variation records.
Tom Treutlein said:
1) So the 2x per week variation would be run from week 5 (what I break out as a specific deloading week) through the end of the intensity phase. Week 5 is actually part of the intensity phase but I always mentally break it out because the weights are constant with final volume week and aren't part of my ramp up. The reason I offer the 2x is that it is really essential that one deloads fully and most people are following the 3x variation I happen to use verbatim without adequately monitoring themselves for extra days off and cutting volume as needed. Meaning - the 3x load is pushing people to the limit before they realize that they need to adjust, although they seem to have kept the weights light enough in the early 3x3 to recover from the volume phase which is ideal so they are really just reloading at the end. I'm sure a bit more experience with this style program will allow them to better monitor their own tolerances and gradually increase those tolerances over time but the 2x serves the purpose by simply taking judgement out of their hands and ensuring the total volume is adequate to deload nearly every individual. If you intend to use the 3x - either plan on some extra days here and there maybe slash off some volume as needed or be prepared to take a week or so between week 9 and your next volume phase with some light speed work (good contrast to heavy 3x3 and 1x3) in the core lifts and frequency at 2x per week. Of course, that all depends on your individual tolerances but if followed without deviation it tends to be too much for the vast majority of people. Those with some years of high volume/intensity training under their belts will likely fare better.
Basically my error in presenting a deloading cycle that I knew would overtax the majority and leaving it to judgement when I knew most people didn't have enough experience with this program style to judge properly and would likely follow it until it ran them down. As I've watched people work their way through the program, I've been kicking myself for making such a bonehead and obvious error. Oh well, an extra week or so to deload again won't kill anyone and there are definietly some strength and foundation benefits to be had from the 3x version with its single sets of triples.
2) Actually, you are ramping to records in all lifts and all days (except for the Wednesday squat which is a given % less than Monday's record 5x5). For the bench/squat/row you have two independent records that week - one is your 5x5 record and the other is your best 1x5 record (which will be higher than your 5x5 so these ramp independently of each other although there is obviously a relationship). Deadlifts, military, and chins are also ramped to 5x5 records although the chins IMO are a bit less important so if a weight belt isn't there just handle your best 5 sets or hang a dumbell between your calves. This is the same for the 3x3/1x3 intensity records - or the 2x variation records.
blut wump
New member
For myself, I'm sure I could have had a much easier time of this week if I hadn't done a double-jump in weights from last week. I found weeks 5 and 6 to be very easy, which was appropriate, but I recall, at the time, being very tempted to add more to the workouts, which I resisted. Actually, I did end up adding some abs works and grip work.
Week 7 started to feel like a workout again but I hurt my back slightly in the deadlift which I think was just due to some bad form. In week 8 I was nailing everything easier than expected and so in week 9 I have used weights a notch up from where I'd been planning in the bench and deadlift. This might have been a step too far for me.
For myself, 2x per week would have been too little. Of course, I'll now never know how I would have been had I not taken that extra bite in week 9 but taking a week of deloading between program cycles is no big deal and is something I would have done anyway due to a switch in gyms.
I haven't felt overloaded at any stage of this program except as week 4 finished I was glad for the the changeover. Also, despite yesterday's slightly over the top straining in the deadlift, which was down to my being unable to stick to my own intended weights increases, I feel fine today: no lethargy; no loss of mental focus etc. I'd be happy to run this program again and almost certainly will.
One thought: dropping just weeks 8 and 9 down to two sessions might work and be worthy of consideration.
Week 7 started to feel like a workout again but I hurt my back slightly in the deadlift which I think was just due to some bad form. In week 8 I was nailing everything easier than expected and so in week 9 I have used weights a notch up from where I'd been planning in the bench and deadlift. This might have been a step too far for me.
For myself, 2x per week would have been too little. Of course, I'll now never know how I would have been had I not taken that extra bite in week 9 but taking a week of deloading between program cycles is no big deal and is something I would have done anyway due to a switch in gyms.
I haven't felt overloaded at any stage of this program except as week 4 finished I was glad for the the changeover. Also, despite yesterday's slightly over the top straining in the deadlift, which was down to my being unable to stick to my own intended weights increases, I feel fine today: no lethargy; no loss of mental focus etc. I'd be happy to run this program again and almost certainly will.
One thought: dropping just weeks 8 and 9 down to two sessions might work and be worthy of consideration.
Blut Wump said:
that's just like me
I'm 265-270 lbs with ~23% bodyfat
but your deadlift is much higher then mine
or rather it might be,I havn't checked on my max tripple
it's probubly lower then 350 lbs tho
I'm new to deadlifts to!
it's like we were seperated at birth, are you Italian...
One thing that is important though is that if the weights are set correctly, you are making records in weeks 3/4 and 8/9. This means bettering your previous best - which was an all out maximum effort - as early as week 3. Being new to this you want to err on the side of caution because setting the weights too high initially ruins it but once you know what you are doing they should be set at this level. If you are well trained and have very relevant and accurate previous records in these lifts, exceeding these records at this workload is very hard. Weeks 3/8 are meant to be very very challenging. Weeks 4/9 are an increment above and failure during the record weeks will happen at times. Under this type of true record scheme the volume loading is much more intense as you need to build to all out maximal efforts in just 2 weeks. This is much more demanding on recovery during the deload/intensity period as you will be absolutely wasted and right on the brink of major overtraining.
blut wump - You might try the idea of further decreasing volume at the end of the intensity phase under the 3x deloading scheme. Those with the desire to push out their heavy triples (1x3 which is not present under the standard 2x) might be able to come up with a hybrid variation which under lower volume/frequency would mitigate the recovery inroads that the 3x program makes on someone especially in the record weeks.
blut wump - You might try the idea of further decreasing volume at the end of the intensity phase under the 3x deloading scheme. Those with the desire to push out their heavy triples (1x3 which is not present under the standard 2x) might be able to come up with a hybrid variation which under lower volume/frequency would mitigate the recovery inroads that the 3x program makes on someone especially in the record weeks.
blut wump
New member
I hear what you're saying: that the effort of this week should have gone into last week too and I'd really be struggling now if I had similarly extended myself with this current 3x per scheme.Madcow2 said:
The choice of weight becomes very difficult at this stage, though. I thought I knew exactly where I stood in the bench, for example, when I started the program and I did set gratifying PRs in weeks 3 and 4. In fact I thought I'd erred on the side of going too heavy on the bench as I had failed in week 2 on the 5x5.
Similarly, when week 8 came around I was uncertain whether I'd make my 1x3 which was another PR and made it not easily but comfortably. I didn't anticipate getting what extrapolates to a 9% strength increase over the nine weeks.
How does one judge one's weights in this circumstance?
Well, it's a good circumstance to be in I'll say that as you are getting stronger. One of the issues with setting weights is that if one isn't really accustomed to this type of set/rep scheme they will make progress along the way and what they set as records when laying out the weight progression will be outdated a bit. There's not that much you can do other than adjust on the fly in this scenario. The more one works with this style program, set/rep scheme, and the given exercises the more one can peg it accurately. For instance, if you repeat the program again right away - you will have very accurate estimates although progress from the intensity phase and deloading may push them out a bit but as long as you are exeeding a recent and relevant previous best on week 3 you should be able to peg week 4 straight off.
blut wump
New member
I think I had a strength spurt between weeks 7 and 8. I recall sleeping an uncommon amount that weekend. I have a couple of posts in here from my week 8 which, to me at least, remind me of the astonishment I'd felt at not only making the weights in that week after experiencing week 7 but lifting them with less effort and strain than I could have anticipated.
For me this is fantastic testament to the program if my only concern is that I've come through it with a greater strength gain than expected. If I understand you correctly, though, a lot of this was probably just my body adjusting to its first experience of the dual-factor system and probably also from its first brush with deadlifts and it's unlikely that I'll repeat this. I did run my first ever PH cycle over the first three weeks and that doubtless contributed.
As you recommend, I'll ease off to ensure I don't crash.
For me this is fantastic testament to the program if my only concern is that I've come through it with a greater strength gain than expected. If I understand you correctly, though, a lot of this was probably just my body adjusting to its first experience of the dual-factor system and probably also from its first brush with deadlifts and it's unlikely that I'll repeat this. I did run my first ever PH cycle over the first three weeks and that doubtless contributed.
As you recommend, I'll ease off to ensure I don't crash.
blut wump
New member
I finished the program today so here are my results for the nine weeks. I've given the bare numbers first followed by notes and commentary on the nine weeks.
First some preamble: I started this program as the next step in my back rehab. I've been lifting regularly and consistently for two years after the latest of many long layoffs over the past 25 years. I've been able to bench without pain but had to be careful with seated rows and only started back on squats about the middle of last year. I'd not done bent rows for years and never done deadlifts. I might have done occasional SLDL in the past and I had done hack squats but never deadlifts. I was looking towards the deads and the bent rowing as being the mainstay in strengthening my core and I decided not to use my lifting belt at all to encourage proper form and core conditioning. I broke that rule on the last day for the squats.
Regarding squats, I could probably have used higher weights throughout but the gym has limited resources and I couldn't have gotten any more than 190Kg onto the bar so I knew that was to be my final squat. I just tried to concentrate on getting low enough and feeling the movement. Another part of my rehab.
I decided that doing Military Press would be pushing my luck too far. I did a preliminary week to get used to the bent rowing and the deadlifts and decided that throwing in MP would be too much and so did Smith shoulder press instead. Note that in one of his posts Madcow expressly suggests this is a bad idea. I hadn't read that when I started. I could probably have switched to MP at the halfway stage but didn't want to change up what I was doing. I added in reverse pec deck as penance and to ensure that I worked more of the shoulder than just the Smith press. I also somehow missed that I was supposed to be doing pullups. I substituted cable pulldowns from the halfway stage since I'm too feeble to do pullups for reps. If you include the preliminary week, it could be argued that I did 5 weeks of volume loading.
Deadlifts were the scariest part of this program. Every week except the deloading week was a PR in deadlift and I don't think I really got the hang of them until week 8 when I finally switched to a mixed grip. They've done their job, though: my back feels so much better than it has at any other time over the past three years.
I definitely pitched the bench weights too high at the start but seemed to recover by repeating one each of the 5x5 and 1x5 days.
Supplements over the period: I take glutamine daily. 5g morning and night and 5g PWO. I take multi-vits daily and protein shakes whenever I feel like it. I eat whenever the urge takes me and eat at least three meals a day. I think more about getting at least 200-250g protein than any aspect of calories or meal composition. I couldn't be described as a bodybuilder.
I ran my first ever prohormone cycle from weeks 1-3 of 1-AD and 4-AD. Pretty much minimum dose of each (300mg/150mg). I've never done any other AAS.
I ran creatine from weeks 1-4 and from weeks 7-9. Maybe the creatine accounted for unexpected strength in week 8.
I'm aged 47 and low 20s BF.
All weights in Kg. To get pounds, double the number and add 10%. 100Kg = 220 pounds.
Weeks 1 - 4
Monday
Squats 5x5
Bench 1x5
Bar Row 1x5
Wednesday
Light Squats 5x5
Deadlift 5x5
Smith Seated Shoulder Press 5x5
Friday
Squats 1x5
Bench 5x5
Bar Row 5x5
Squats
5x5 150 155 160 ---
5x5 --- 120 130 140
1x5 160 165 170 172.5
Bench
5x5 110 112.5 112.5 115
1x5 115 120 122.5 122.5
Bent Barbell Row
5x5 100 110 112.5 115
1x5 110 115 120 122.5
Deadlift
5x5 110 110* 130 135
Smith Seated Shoulder Press
5x5 80 85 87.5 90
Weeks 5 - 9
Monday
Squats 3x3
Bench 1x3
Bar Row 1x3
Wednesday
Deadlift 3x3
Smith Seated Shoulder Press 3x3
Pulldown 3x3
Reverse Pec Deck 3x3
Friday
Squats 1x3
Bench 3x3
Bar Row 3x3
Squats
3x3 160 165 170 175 180
1x3 172.5 175 180 185 190
Bench
3x3 115 117.5 120 122.5 125
1x3 122.5 125 127.5 130 135
Bent Barbell Row
3x3 115 117.5 100* 120 122.5
1x3 122.5 125 127.5 130 132.5
Deadlift
3x3 135 140 145 150 160
Smith Seated Shoulder Press
3x3 90 92.5 95 97.5 100
Cable Pulldown (in Plates, which I think are 10 lbs)
3x3 16 17 18 19 20
Reverse Pec Deck (in Plates, probably 10 lbs)
3x3 16 17 18 19 20
Notes:
Week 1 - Body Weight 120, 120.5, 121
Monday bench tried for 6 reps and failed last rep.
Weds couldn't get access to do squats so did hack squats from floor. Deadlift in Normal style. Also threw in some reverse pec deck and machine upright rows. Back aches/pumps during deads
Friday bench quite hard
Week 2 - BW 120, 120.5, 120.5
Monday: threw in some DB curls 25Kg x 7 for two sets
Wednesday: Struggled with deadlift. Attempted 110Kg with Normal style mixed grip and failed to lift. Did 110x5 for 3 sets in Sumo style and couldn't lift the bar for a fourth set. Switched to Normal style with double overhand grip and did 110x5, 120x5, 130x5. Back pumps bad.
Friday: bench attempted 112.5x5x5 and failed on last rep of last set
Week 3 - BW 121.5, 121.5, 122.5
Monday: bench failed on last rep of 122.5x5 so only 122.5x4
Wednesday: Deadlift went ok in Normal style, added a single at 140Kg. Still using double-overhand. Back pumps not so bad this week.
Friday: Had to repeat last weeks bench weight and got it.
Week 4 - BW 121.5, 121.5, 121.5
Monday: Felt weak during squat warmups. On final warmup got a bad twinge in right leg so aborted squats. Not good for a record-setting day. Bench had to repeat last week's weight and got it.
Weds: Grip failed after 3 sets of deadlift so had to use straps for last two. Attempted and got a single at 150Kg. Finished off with some machine upright rows.
Friday: bench was hard work but ok.
Week 5 - BW 121, 121.5, 122
Wednesday: added pulldowns to Wednesday workout. Should have been doing them from the start. Also decided to make reverse pec deck a Wednesday addition from now on to compensate for doing Smith instead of Military Press. Very easy week. Did some grip work on Friday, pinched 20Kg plates for 60s
Week 6 - BW 121.5, 121.5, 122
Workouts still felt easy this week. Switched grip on pulldowns to mixed grip from now onwards. Added some grip work on Weds. and on Friday: 20Kg plate pinched for 60s, rest 90s, pinch again for 60s.
Week 7 - BW 121.5, 122.5, 121.5
Monday went ok
Wednesay: deadlifts were a struggle. Almost dropped the bar on second set and did drop it on finishing third set. Came away with my back aching.
Friday: Back still hurting. Was ok on squats but couldn't handle bent row. Did 100x5 for 3 sets instead. Grip 25Kg for 60s.
Week 8 - BW 122, 122, 122
Monday: bench went well. half expected to fail but didn't. Struggling on rows but squeezed them out at the expense of lifting body maybe a bit too much.
Wednesday: Finally switched to mixed grip on deadlift. Nailed the 150Kg. Hard work but a big surprise after last week.
Friday: Bent row stayed with the weight I should have done last week. Grip work: managed to get a 100Kg barbell off the floor with each hand. Only just with left. Failed at 110. Grip 20Kg x 60s, rest 90s repeat.
Week 9 - BW 121.5, 122.5, 122
Monday: Went for what was my 1RM on bench at beginning of Jan and got it for three reps. Bent row was very sloppy but kind of squeezed them out. I'd have to mark that as a fail. Squat was an effort but fine.
Wednesday: After last week's deadlift I added 10Kg and it was very hard. Took long rests between sets. Shoulder press was hard, brought bar down to about nose level. Not bad for a weight I'd never even singled before.
Friday: Finally put my belt on for squat. Not particularly hard but that's all the weight there is. Only just got last rep of bench. Almost stalled about half-way up but kept it going. Very pleased. Bent row was of acceptable form.
First some preamble: I started this program as the next step in my back rehab. I've been lifting regularly and consistently for two years after the latest of many long layoffs over the past 25 years. I've been able to bench without pain but had to be careful with seated rows and only started back on squats about the middle of last year. I'd not done bent rows for years and never done deadlifts. I might have done occasional SLDL in the past and I had done hack squats but never deadlifts. I was looking towards the deads and the bent rowing as being the mainstay in strengthening my core and I decided not to use my lifting belt at all to encourage proper form and core conditioning. I broke that rule on the last day for the squats.
Regarding squats, I could probably have used higher weights throughout but the gym has limited resources and I couldn't have gotten any more than 190Kg onto the bar so I knew that was to be my final squat. I just tried to concentrate on getting low enough and feeling the movement. Another part of my rehab.
I decided that doing Military Press would be pushing my luck too far. I did a preliminary week to get used to the bent rowing and the deadlifts and decided that throwing in MP would be too much and so did Smith shoulder press instead. Note that in one of his posts Madcow expressly suggests this is a bad idea. I hadn't read that when I started. I could probably have switched to MP at the halfway stage but didn't want to change up what I was doing. I added in reverse pec deck as penance and to ensure that I worked more of the shoulder than just the Smith press. I also somehow missed that I was supposed to be doing pullups. I substituted cable pulldowns from the halfway stage since I'm too feeble to do pullups for reps. If you include the preliminary week, it could be argued that I did 5 weeks of volume loading.
Deadlifts were the scariest part of this program. Every week except the deloading week was a PR in deadlift and I don't think I really got the hang of them until week 8 when I finally switched to a mixed grip. They've done their job, though: my back feels so much better than it has at any other time over the past three years.
I definitely pitched the bench weights too high at the start but seemed to recover by repeating one each of the 5x5 and 1x5 days.
Supplements over the period: I take glutamine daily. 5g morning and night and 5g PWO. I take multi-vits daily and protein shakes whenever I feel like it. I eat whenever the urge takes me and eat at least three meals a day. I think more about getting at least 200-250g protein than any aspect of calories or meal composition. I couldn't be described as a bodybuilder.
I ran my first ever prohormone cycle from weeks 1-3 of 1-AD and 4-AD. Pretty much minimum dose of each (300mg/150mg). I've never done any other AAS.
I ran creatine from weeks 1-4 and from weeks 7-9. Maybe the creatine accounted for unexpected strength in week 8.
I'm aged 47 and low 20s BF.
All weights in Kg. To get pounds, double the number and add 10%. 100Kg = 220 pounds.
Weeks 1 - 4
Monday
Squats 5x5
Bench 1x5
Bar Row 1x5
Wednesday
Light Squats 5x5
Deadlift 5x5
Smith Seated Shoulder Press 5x5
Friday
Squats 1x5
Bench 5x5
Bar Row 5x5
Squats
5x5 150 155 160 ---
5x5 --- 120 130 140
1x5 160 165 170 172.5
Bench
5x5 110 112.5 112.5 115
1x5 115 120 122.5 122.5
Bent Barbell Row
5x5 100 110 112.5 115
1x5 110 115 120 122.5
Deadlift
5x5 110 110* 130 135
Smith Seated Shoulder Press
5x5 80 85 87.5 90
Weeks 5 - 9
Monday
Squats 3x3
Bench 1x3
Bar Row 1x3
Wednesday
Deadlift 3x3
Smith Seated Shoulder Press 3x3
Pulldown 3x3
Reverse Pec Deck 3x3
Friday
Squats 1x3
Bench 3x3
Bar Row 3x3
Squats
3x3 160 165 170 175 180
1x3 172.5 175 180 185 190
Bench
3x3 115 117.5 120 122.5 125
1x3 122.5 125 127.5 130 135
Bent Barbell Row
3x3 115 117.5 100* 120 122.5
1x3 122.5 125 127.5 130 132.5
Deadlift
3x3 135 140 145 150 160
Smith Seated Shoulder Press
3x3 90 92.5 95 97.5 100
Cable Pulldown (in Plates, which I think are 10 lbs)
3x3 16 17 18 19 20
Reverse Pec Deck (in Plates, probably 10 lbs)
3x3 16 17 18 19 20
Notes:
Week 1 - Body Weight 120, 120.5, 121
Monday bench tried for 6 reps and failed last rep.
Weds couldn't get access to do squats so did hack squats from floor. Deadlift in Normal style. Also threw in some reverse pec deck and machine upright rows. Back aches/pumps during deads
Friday bench quite hard
Week 2 - BW 120, 120.5, 120.5
Monday: threw in some DB curls 25Kg x 7 for two sets
Wednesday: Struggled with deadlift. Attempted 110Kg with Normal style mixed grip and failed to lift. Did 110x5 for 3 sets in Sumo style and couldn't lift the bar for a fourth set. Switched to Normal style with double overhand grip and did 110x5, 120x5, 130x5. Back pumps bad.
Friday: bench attempted 112.5x5x5 and failed on last rep of last set
Week 3 - BW 121.5, 121.5, 122.5
Monday: bench failed on last rep of 122.5x5 so only 122.5x4
Wednesday: Deadlift went ok in Normal style, added a single at 140Kg. Still using double-overhand. Back pumps not so bad this week.
Friday: Had to repeat last weeks bench weight and got it.
Week 4 - BW 121.5, 121.5, 121.5
Monday: Felt weak during squat warmups. On final warmup got a bad twinge in right leg so aborted squats. Not good for a record-setting day. Bench had to repeat last week's weight and got it.
Weds: Grip failed after 3 sets of deadlift so had to use straps for last two. Attempted and got a single at 150Kg. Finished off with some machine upright rows.
Friday: bench was hard work but ok.
Week 5 - BW 121, 121.5, 122
Wednesday: added pulldowns to Wednesday workout. Should have been doing them from the start. Also decided to make reverse pec deck a Wednesday addition from now on to compensate for doing Smith instead of Military Press. Very easy week. Did some grip work on Friday, pinched 20Kg plates for 60s
Week 6 - BW 121.5, 121.5, 122
Workouts still felt easy this week. Switched grip on pulldowns to mixed grip from now onwards. Added some grip work on Weds. and on Friday: 20Kg plate pinched for 60s, rest 90s, pinch again for 60s.
Week 7 - BW 121.5, 122.5, 121.5
Monday went ok
Wednesay: deadlifts were a struggle. Almost dropped the bar on second set and did drop it on finishing third set. Came away with my back aching.
Friday: Back still hurting. Was ok on squats but couldn't handle bent row. Did 100x5 for 3 sets instead. Grip 25Kg for 60s.
Week 8 - BW 122, 122, 122
Monday: bench went well. half expected to fail but didn't. Struggling on rows but squeezed them out at the expense of lifting body maybe a bit too much.
Wednesday: Finally switched to mixed grip on deadlift. Nailed the 150Kg. Hard work but a big surprise after last week.
Friday: Bent row stayed with the weight I should have done last week. Grip work: managed to get a 100Kg barbell off the floor with each hand. Only just with left. Failed at 110. Grip 20Kg x 60s, rest 90s repeat.
Week 9 - BW 121.5, 122.5, 122
Monday: Went for what was my 1RM on bench at beginning of Jan and got it for three reps. Bent row was very sloppy but kind of squeezed them out. I'd have to mark that as a fail. Squat was an effort but fine.
Wednesday: After last week's deadlift I added 10Kg and it was very hard. Took long rests between sets. Shoulder press was hard, brought bar down to about nose level. Not bad for a weight I'd never even singled before.
Friday: Finally put my belt on for squat. Not particularly hard but that's all the weight there is. Only just got last rep of bench. Almost stalled about half-way up but kept it going. Very pleased. Bent row was of acceptable form.
blut wump
New member
I should add that in the 1x5 exercises I did do the required ramping up to five but only took note of the target final set. I always do warmup sets to get to my working sets but rarely make more than a fleeting mental note of them.
When I mentioned that squats could have been heavier throughout, I meant throughout the intensity phase.
If anyone really wants more info on my warmups, I can provide it, mostly.
When I mentioned that squats could have been heavier throughout, I meant throughout the intensity phase.
If anyone really wants more info on my warmups, I can provide it, mostly.
Tom Treutlein
New member
Just curious, but did you lose bodyfat? I noticed your weight remained relatively the same all the way through so either you
A) gained mass and loss bodyfat at the same time or...
B) weren't eating enough and didn't grow much
That's not meant to knock you in any way though. Good job going through the whole damn thing. I just started, so we'll see how I fare!
A) gained mass and loss bodyfat at the same time or...
B) weren't eating enough and didn't grow much
That's not meant to knock you in any way though. Good job going through the whole damn thing. I just started, so we'll see how I fare!
blut wump
New member
Maybe, I'm not sure since I didn't get BF measured. Obviously, I'd noticed that my weight didn't change much. My spouse did at one stage mention I looked slimmer but I can't really say I've felt slimmer. Sorry, can't really help more than that. Growth, as such, wasn't a goal of mine.Tom Treutlein said:
It is generally reckoned that if someone doesn't keep track of their calories then they probably don't get enough and I was only keeping an eye on the protein.
That said, I did gain 4.5 to 5 pounds over the nine weeks. If I kept that up for a year then that'd be around 25-30 pounds on the year.
Gentlemen,
I think this program reads extremely well. Madcow's just...well, just the man!
I am still reading over all of the relevant threads but, if someone has the time, something that'd help me immeasurably would be to see a detailed lay-out of someone's old cycle, or an example of a "perfect" cycle based on my numbers. For instance:
Assume top end weights of the following: squat 450x5, incline 275x9, military press 220x5 (? probably lower than my seated press?), SLDL 335x11, and BB row (loose, almost Ronnie-style) 305x7. Chin's probably bw for 7-8.
What kind of weights would I be lifting in each phase? Would the fact that I'm not used to many work sets of one movement give me a lot of trouble in any of those phases? And what kind of weight jump should I aim for in 10 weeks?
I know all that has probably been covered 10 times over and I'm just being lazy right now. My apologies for that. Even after reading some of this material, I'm having trouble imagining where I might start and what my goal might be.
Thanks--
I think this program reads extremely well. Madcow's just...well, just the man!
I am still reading over all of the relevant threads but, if someone has the time, something that'd help me immeasurably would be to see a detailed lay-out of someone's old cycle, or an example of a "perfect" cycle based on my numbers. For instance:
Assume top end weights of the following: squat 450x5, incline 275x9, military press 220x5 (? probably lower than my seated press?), SLDL 335x11, and BB row (loose, almost Ronnie-style) 305x7. Chin's probably bw for 7-8.
What kind of weights would I be lifting in each phase? Would the fact that I'm not used to many work sets of one movement give me a lot of trouble in any of those phases? And what kind of weight jump should I aim for in 10 weeks?
I know all that has probably been covered 10 times over and I'm just being lazy right now. My apologies for that. Even after reading some of this material, I'm having trouble imagining where I might start and what my goal might be.
Thanks--
D
Debaser
Guest
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Personally, I think 75% of your 5 rep maxes is a good starting point. In other words, your 450 lb squat would begin the cycle at 335-340 lbs, and you'd probably want to progress at about 20-25 lbs (around 5%) each session.
This is essentially HST's way of cycling, so maddog might have a different philosophy.
Personally, I think 75% of your 5 rep maxes is a good starting point. In other words, your 450 lb squat would begin the cycle at 335-340 lbs, and you'd probably want to progress at about 20-25 lbs (around 5%) each session.
This is essentially HST's way of cycling, so maddog might have a different philosophy.
Tom Treutlein
New member
75% of 5 RMs wouldn't really make sense if you up the weight 5 lbs. a session. You'd be at 85% and 90% in the 3/4 weeks in the beginning, and we want to break records here...
Don't we?
Then again, it could still stimulate hypertrophy, while allowing one to recover easier. Depends on the goals, I guess.
Don't we?
Then again, it could still stimulate hypertrophy, while allowing one to recover easier. Depends on the goals, I guess.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
So where one starts is going to vary a good bit. The higher one starts the closer one is to maximum total volume and the more taxing the initial weeks will be - this is what I mean about tolerances. Some might benefit from starting at 85-90% of record 5x5 weight while others might need a lower first week as they make too much of an inroad before the record weeks. HST is also lowering the reps which cuts the volume as intensity increases to accomodate a longer loading cycle (at least from what I recall - I didn't spend a lot of time reading it over but that's the jist as I understand it with the goal being a longer stretch of weight progression). Here, under the 4 week volume program the only factor moving is intensity itself so volume is still fairly high with upward ramping and it can't be maintained long. If you want 6 weeks you need to start fairly light and build up.
Anything even close to maximum 5x5/1x5 is going to be very taxing even if you aren't at record weights. Even in the absense of records and just a prolonged series of small incremental jumps you won't last long. I did this very experiment taking small jumps to see exactly how long it could be maintained - no record lifts but if the record was 100% I was making incremental jumps for a long period in the 85-95% range. By week 8 I was absolutely crushed - not on the verges of overtraining but fully in the midst of major breakdown. We are talking standing up falling asleep, zero concentration, yawning all the time, all weights immediately and fully going straight to the shitter. The deloading required was so severe and so long that the net gains were about zero. It was about 2 full weeks of zero training and another 2 of light training before I could begin to seriously train again. Not worth it except for an oddball experimenter like myself but a great illustration of tollerances (sort of like a carpenter smashing his finger with a hammer on purpose to illustrate to himself that it hurts).
Under correct weight settings you will be right on the verge of overtraining where your performance will begin to slide after week 4. You should be begging for the deloading week and absolutely loving it when it comes. This is about the ideal point where you want to take loading to - any further makes too great an inroad and any less does not provide an optimal adaptive stimulus, but will still be an effective stimulus to a degree so obviously you want to err on the side of conservatism your first time until you get a frame of reference for where you fall.
So where one starts is going to vary a good bit. The higher one starts the closer one is to maximum total volume and the more taxing the initial weeks will be - this is what I mean about tolerances. Some might benefit from starting at 85-90% of record 5x5 weight while others might need a lower first week as they make too much of an inroad before the record weeks. HST is also lowering the reps which cuts the volume as intensity increases to accomodate a longer loading cycle (at least from what I recall - I didn't spend a lot of time reading it over but that's the jist as I understand it with the goal being a longer stretch of weight progression). Here, under the 4 week volume program the only factor moving is intensity itself so volume is still fairly high with upward ramping and it can't be maintained long. If you want 6 weeks you need to start fairly light and build up.
Anything even close to maximum 5x5/1x5 is going to be very taxing even if you aren't at record weights. Even in the absense of records and just a prolonged series of small incremental jumps you won't last long. I did this very experiment taking small jumps to see exactly how long it could be maintained - no record lifts but if the record was 100% I was making incremental jumps for a long period in the 85-95% range. By week 8 I was absolutely crushed - not on the verges of overtraining but fully in the midst of major breakdown. We are talking standing up falling asleep, zero concentration, yawning all the time, all weights immediately and fully going straight to the shitter. The deloading required was so severe and so long that the net gains were about zero. It was about 2 full weeks of zero training and another 2 of light training before I could begin to seriously train again. Not worth it except for an oddball experimenter like myself but a great illustration of tollerances (sort of like a carpenter smashing his finger with a hammer on purpose to illustrate to himself that it hurts).
Under correct weight settings you will be right on the verge of overtraining where your performance will begin to slide after week 4. You should be begging for the deloading week and absolutely loving it when it comes. This is about the ideal point where you want to take loading to - any further makes too great an inroad and any less does not provide an optimal adaptive stimulus, but will still be an effective stimulus to a degree so obviously you want to err on the side of conservatism your first time until you get a frame of reference for where you fall.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
In keeping with my all resources in one place mentality I'm going to link a few things for reference and easy access:
My General Thoughts on the Current State of Training Knowledge in BBing/Gyms/General Fitness:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4619807&postcount=41
Why Focusing on Speed/Acceleration is Critical:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4624616&postcount=62
In keeping with my all resources in one place mentality I'm going to link a few things for reference and easy access:
My General Thoughts on the Current State of Training Knowledge in BBing/Gyms/General Fitness:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4619807&postcount=41
Why Focusing on Speed/Acceleration is Critical:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4624616&postcount=62
Last edited:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
), my training philosiphies are being drastically remolded. Ive been doing a GREAT deal of reading since we first began talking (arguing?-Soreness IS correlated to growth, DAMMIT!!! j/k) and youve, or should I say the info you've provided, has been a definate eye opener. I cant thank you enough.
One question I have, can this 5x5 principle be tweaked, to say, somethinglike this: (rep/set scheme staying the same)
Day 1
Leg Press
Incline Bench Press
Barbell Rows
Day 2
Deadlift (or maybe even C's, since the beginning of the movement is basically the same as a deadlift)
Military Press (behind the neck, instead of to the front-just for a variation)
Pullups
Day 3
Same as Day 1
Just an idea, I know squats are the core of your original writeup, but I want to develop more of a sweep to my quads-Squats are defiantely adding the mass, but moreso str8 out from my leg, and not so much width-wise. LMK your thoughts on this.
Bionic
Not to beat a dead horse, but Madcow2, I can honestly say you have changed my whole outlook on weight training in general. Although my pursuit of mass hasnt changed (Not Ronnie Coleman mass, mind you, but someone like Frank Zane comes to mind....Madcow2 said:
), my training philosiphies are being drastically remolded. Ive been doing a GREAT deal of reading since we first began talking (arguing?-Soreness IS correlated to growth, DAMMIT!!! j/k) and youve, or should I say the info you've provided, has been a definate eye opener. I cant thank you enough. One question I have, can this 5x5 principle be tweaked, to say, somethinglike this: (rep/set scheme staying the same)
Day 1
Leg Press
Incline Bench Press
Barbell Rows
Day 2
Deadlift (or maybe even C's, since the beginning of the movement is basically the same as a deadlift)
Military Press (behind the neck, instead of to the front-just for a variation)
Pullups
Day 3
Same as Day 1
Just an idea, I know squats are the core of your original writeup, but I want to develop more of a sweep to my quads-Squats are defiantely adding the mass, but moreso str8 out from my leg, and not so much width-wise. LMK your thoughts on this.
Bionic
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
So I'm betting you have been getting gains without being sore from each and every individual workout? The horror - the horror. LOL. Seriously, I'm glad to see you really interested in this stuff. Lots of good sources in this link that you might want to pursue if you feel inclined to learn more. I really only put forth the basics but if you are serious about understanding training and want to take your programs to the next level this is where it's at: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
My first thought is that the leg press sucks for a variety of reasons. You also don't have a squat/legpress movement on Day 2 for the volume phase. The legpress is a lot less taxing so this will lower total volume/stress to the organism in the loading phase. You could also just substitute in LP on Wednesdays but I wouldn't neglect squating. You might change your stance or add plates behind your feet (sort of a substitute for heal on OL shoes) as this will keep you more upright and facilitate transfering your gravity forward a bit keeping your torso more upright and distributing more of the load toward to the legs and away from the posterior chain which tends to be focused more when the center of gravity is father back (the PL stance maximizes this). You could also LP on M/W and just do the 5x5 pryramid working to 1 set of 5 for the squat on Day 3. Front squatting is also an option.
I don't know what C's are in relation to deadlifts. Is this a clean? If so then yes it's a good substitute but once again will lower total volume/stress on the system which isn't a big deal except that you've pulling squats too. This in combination with subbing out the squat may require more workload for proper loading stimulus depending upon the individual. You could probably add cleans to day 1/3 and sub high pulls for day 2 deadlifts to better balance this out. If you do mean cleans or high pulls and are familiar with the technique let me know as I have an idea that you might like that would compensate for volume better - albeit adding a 4th day.
I personally would not do behind the neck presses. I don't like where it puts the bar and I feel it is unnecessary yielding no extra gains even under best case scenario yet measurably increases the risk and you don't want an injury involving shoulder/neck/upper back as these take forever to heal. Better to just use dumbells. (and you will rarely hear me say anything like this so take that for what it's worth).
So I'm betting you have been getting gains without being sore from each and every individual workout? The horror - the horror. LOL. Seriously, I'm glad to see you really interested in this stuff. Lots of good sources in this link that you might want to pursue if you feel inclined to learn more. I really only put forth the basics but if you are serious about understanding training and want to take your programs to the next level this is where it's at: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
My first thought is that the leg press sucks for a variety of reasons. You also don't have a squat/legpress movement on Day 2 for the volume phase. The legpress is a lot less taxing so this will lower total volume/stress to the organism in the loading phase. You could also just substitute in LP on Wednesdays but I wouldn't neglect squating. You might change your stance or add plates behind your feet (sort of a substitute for heal on OL shoes) as this will keep you more upright and facilitate transfering your gravity forward a bit keeping your torso more upright and distributing more of the load toward to the legs and away from the posterior chain which tends to be focused more when the center of gravity is father back (the PL stance maximizes this). You could also LP on M/W and just do the 5x5 pryramid working to 1 set of 5 for the squat on Day 3. Front squatting is also an option.
I don't know what C's are in relation to deadlifts. Is this a clean? If so then yes it's a good substitute but once again will lower total volume/stress on the system which isn't a big deal except that you've pulling squats too. This in combination with subbing out the squat may require more workload for proper loading stimulus depending upon the individual. You could probably add cleans to day 1/3 and sub high pulls for day 2 deadlifts to better balance this out. If you do mean cleans or high pulls and are familiar with the technique let me know as I have an idea that you might like that would compensate for volume better - albeit adding a 4th day.
I personally would not do behind the neck presses. I don't like where it puts the bar and I feel it is unnecessary yielding no extra gains even under best case scenario yet measurably increases the risk and you don't want an injury involving shoulder/neck/upper back as these take forever to heal. Better to just use dumbells. (and you will rarely hear me say anything like this so take that for what it's worth).
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
So whats your 4 day idea? How about this (feel free to change to incorporate your 4 day a week idea)
Day1
Squat
Incline Bench
Barbell Row
Day 2
Squat (15-20% less, or could i do leg presses HERE instead??)
Cleans
Military (okay, no behind the neck... I might go to dumbells for variation, but i like the "lockout" feel of standing barbell military presses)
Pullups
Day 3
Squat
Incline Bench
Barbell Row
Also, on Day 1, Ive been doing Tricep Cable Pushdowns, 3 sets (15, 12, 10 reps), and on Day 3, Incline Dumbell Curls (12, 10, 8 reps) just to throw in a lil arm work. Is this okay? LMK....
Your student in training,
Bionic
Madcow2 said:
So whats your 4 day idea? How about this (feel free to change to incorporate your 4 day a week idea)
Day1
Squat
Incline Bench
Barbell Row
Day 2
Squat (15-20% less, or could i do leg presses HERE instead??)
Cleans
Military (okay, no behind the neck... I might go to dumbells for variation, but i like the "lockout" feel of standing barbell military presses)
Pullups
Day 3
Squat
Incline Bench
Barbell Row
Also, on Day 1, Ive been doing Tricep Cable Pushdowns, 3 sets (15, 12, 10 reps), and on Day 3, Incline Dumbell Curls (12, 10, 8 reps) just to throw in a lil arm work. Is this okay? LMK....
Your student in training,
Bionic
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Here's an idea - rather than create a different variation of the 5x5 which tends to be a longer foundation cycle (and which no doubt everyone who reads this thread will find and use to change everything around and then wonder why it doesn't work anymore), why not build an abbreviated mesocycle that you can do to address some weak points before going back into a core training program or the 5x5 in this case. You are still using dual factor theory but this might resemble a 2-3 week period followed by a week of deloading. You could also use some type of 2 week microcycle period instead of a dedicated deloading week to address some of this but you'd want the volume to be such that you can step right back into the core training.
So basically your longer term layout would be:
4 weeks Volume 5x5
1 week Deload 5x5
4 weeks Intensity 5x5 (*if you use the 3x protocol you will likely need to deload)
*1 week Deload
Now This:
2-3 Weeks Specialized Cycle (address your weak points here)
1 Week Deload
Or This:
2 Week Microcycle
And Then:
Repeat/Begin new Core Hypertrophy Program
Here is an example of a 2-3/1 (load/deload) program. http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=401452&postcount=3
Why not throw what you need into this protocol and PM me with it so we don't have everyone customizing the 5x5 and creating a 3 day split and training each bodypart once per week to failure and then telling me the program doesn't work and they get better gains from their own machine based protocol that they based on some Pro BBers shrunken scrodum.
EDIT- terminology
Here's an idea - rather than create a different variation of the 5x5 which tends to be a longer foundation cycle (and which no doubt everyone who reads this thread will find and use to change everything around and then wonder why it doesn't work anymore), why not build an abbreviated mesocycle that you can do to address some weak points before going back into a core training program or the 5x5 in this case. You are still using dual factor theory but this might resemble a 2-3 week period followed by a week of deloading. You could also use some type of 2 week microcycle period instead of a dedicated deloading week to address some of this but you'd want the volume to be such that you can step right back into the core training.
So basically your longer term layout would be:
4 weeks Volume 5x5
1 week Deload 5x5
4 weeks Intensity 5x5 (*if you use the 3x protocol you will likely need to deload)
*1 week Deload
Now This:
2-3 Weeks Specialized Cycle (address your weak points here)
1 Week Deload
Or This:
2 Week Microcycle
And Then:
Repeat/Begin new Core Hypertrophy Program
Here is an example of a 2-3/1 (load/deload) program. http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=401452&postcount=3
Why not throw what you need into this protocol and PM me with it so we don't have everyone customizing the 5x5 and creating a 3 day split and training each bodypart once per week to failure and then telling me the program doesn't work and they get better gains from their own machine based protocol that they based on some Pro BBers shrunken scrodum.
EDIT- terminology
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super_rice
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372361
i was up a little over 15lbs after 6-7 weeks. then the flu came. i'm sitting at 172 right now, totally dehydrated and in the morning.
the weight gain does not kick ass much ass as the strength gain. but that's just my opinion
JKurz1 said:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372361
i was up a little over 15lbs after 6-7 weeks. then the flu came. i'm sitting at 172 right now, totally dehydrated and in the morning.
the weight gain does not kick ass much ass as the strength gain. but that's just my opinion
super_rice
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
i started posting in week 3 or 4, but did the whole thing.
the weights were botched initially (too much volume), but if you go through it, it's proper. complete with videos and all.
why don't you just try it and experiment for yourself? it's not a paticularly hard program, and you definately do a lot less than your 6 day per week type stuff
i started posting in week 3 or 4, but did the whole thing.
the weights were botched initially (too much volume), but if you go through it, it's proper. complete with videos and all.
why don't you just try it and experiment for yourself? it's not a paticularly hard program, and you definately do a lot less than your 6 day per week type stuff
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
The program itself is very straightforward. The biggest issue for most people is setting the weights to arrive at records the final 2 weeks of the volume phase (the intensity phase is a bit easier to set because at least you have a basis from the volume). For the initial run through it's better to be conservative as too much too soon will prevent you from ramping and kill the program whereas a conservative approach will not be optimal but will at least allow you to get a solid amount of gains and provide a future reference.
You can either start very light and run for 6 weeks to records in weeks 5/6 or start moderate and run 4 weeks to records in weeks 3/4. For first timers starting conservantively the record weeks tend to be a bit less than all out 100% records simply due to not having a good reference point.
As far as results, this workout is the closest thing to a sure thing I've found. There is simply no one who doesn't get a lot stronger and add significant LBM (the amount of people who have used this program over the years is staggering and it is still being used along with variations by athletes at the highest levels - albeit mostly as an offseason program). It is so successful at generating hypertrophy that many athletes are forced to avoid it. I ran this program a few years ago (substituting highpulls for deads was the only exception but sets/reps were exactly as the first post in this thread reads) and was forced to ramp back my calorie intake not once but twice over the weeks and the gains still kept comming - and I didn't increase my calories for this program beforehand so I was basically forced to run in a moderate deficit mode by the final weeks. I believe I netted somewhere around 8-10lbs and this is someone purposely trying to keep their weight under control and keep any weight fluctuations closer to the 5lbs range.
If setting the weights is a big issue you could always test out your best set of 5 in each exercise (over the span of a week - don't worry too much about chins but the squat/bench/row/dead/military) and then back off 10-20% for a 5x5 record weight. Put these weights at week 3, plan to exceed them on week 4. Start significantly before target weight so using 300 for 5x5 on week 3 as a target you might start at 245, 280, 300, 315 for weeks 1,2,3,4 respectively. You can adjust as you go if you feel the upcoming weight in the next workout is going to be too heavy or too light. It's really simple once you get going but the fact that most people don't have relevant weights to apply to the program causes some anxiety but not to worry.
blut wump's journal is post #125 on the previous page.JKurz1 said:
The program itself is very straightforward. The biggest issue for most people is setting the weights to arrive at records the final 2 weeks of the volume phase (the intensity phase is a bit easier to set because at least you have a basis from the volume). For the initial run through it's better to be conservative as too much too soon will prevent you from ramping and kill the program whereas a conservative approach will not be optimal but will at least allow you to get a solid amount of gains and provide a future reference.
You can either start very light and run for 6 weeks to records in weeks 5/6 or start moderate and run 4 weeks to records in weeks 3/4. For first timers starting conservantively the record weeks tend to be a bit less than all out 100% records simply due to not having a good reference point.
As far as results, this workout is the closest thing to a sure thing I've found. There is simply no one who doesn't get a lot stronger and add significant LBM (the amount of people who have used this program over the years is staggering and it is still being used along with variations by athletes at the highest levels - albeit mostly as an offseason program). It is so successful at generating hypertrophy that many athletes are forced to avoid it. I ran this program a few years ago (substituting highpulls for deads was the only exception but sets/reps were exactly as the first post in this thread reads) and was forced to ramp back my calorie intake not once but twice over the weeks and the gains still kept comming - and I didn't increase my calories for this program beforehand so I was basically forced to run in a moderate deficit mode by the final weeks. I believe I netted somewhere around 8-10lbs and this is someone purposely trying to keep their weight under control and keep any weight fluctuations closer to the 5lbs range.
If setting the weights is a big issue you could always test out your best set of 5 in each exercise (over the span of a week - don't worry too much about chins but the squat/bench/row/dead/military) and then back off 10-20% for a 5x5 record weight. Put these weights at week 3, plan to exceed them on week 4. Start significantly before target weight so using 300 for 5x5 on week 3 as a target you might start at 245, 280, 300, 315 for weeks 1,2,3,4 respectively. You can adjust as you go if you feel the upcoming weight in the next workout is going to be too heavy or too light. It's really simple once you get going but the fact that most people don't have relevant weights to apply to the program causes some anxiety but not to worry.
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psychedout
New member
What would happen if you ran this program while dieting?
JKurz1
Banned
Monday
Squats 5x5
Bench 1x5
Bar Row 1x5
Wednesday
Light Squats 5x5
Deadlift 5x5
Smith Seated Shoulder Press 5x5
Friday
Squats 1x5
Bench 5x5
Bar Row 5x5
ok..then using the above program......day 1, is that 7 sets total?
Same weight for each set of 5 and increase it the following week? For example - Is this it?
Squats - 315x5 for 5 sets?
Bench - 1 set of 315 for 5?
Bar Baell Rows - 1 set of 185 for 5?
wouldnt this routine take you all of 20-30 minutes?
Include Deads on Wed, are we just doing 4 exercises a week, well 5 including standing o/h press? 7 sets each day? That will sum up my ?s......
Squats 5x5
Bench 1x5
Bar Row 1x5
Wednesday
Light Squats 5x5
Deadlift 5x5
Smith Seated Shoulder Press 5x5
Friday
Squats 1x5
Bench 5x5
Bar Row 5x5
ok..then using the above program......day 1, is that 7 sets total?
Same weight for each set of 5 and increase it the following week? For example - Is this it?
Squats - 315x5 for 5 sets?
Bench - 1 set of 315 for 5?
Bar Baell Rows - 1 set of 185 for 5?
wouldnt this routine take you all of 20-30 minutes?
Include Deads on Wed, are we just doing 4 exercises a week, well 5 including standing o/h press? 7 sets each day? That will sum up my ?s......
psychedout
New member
Hypothetically, lets say you add 40mg of var to the mix, and 300 grams of protein per day? Would this be the best thing that ever could happen?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
5x5 (or 3x3) is with a working set weight so warm up and perform all 5 sets of 5 with a target weight.
1x5 (or 1x3) the target is a single set of 5 with a target weight but you want to pyramid up making a total of 5 sets of 5 (just with the top one being the target). This is particularly important in the volume phase as you want to make sure you get all your volume. Those with a higher capacity for workload can handle a series of heavier weights in the pyramid. Start modestly your first time - meaning if your target weight for the set is 300 don't go 260, 270, 280, 290 .
Wednesday squat workout is 5x5 based off Monday's working weight. Generally it's 10-20% range but be conservative and don't increase it over the cycle as much as Monday's so the % may begin at 12% or whatever and drift down to 20% or even less over the phase.
There are also 3 separate accounts of this program on page 1. Mine, Animalmass's and JS182's. There are a lot of tips to get the most out of it too but between 3 accounts from 3 people you can get a lot of good info out of it. I really suggest giving them all a careful read as there are some really good points in each of them that aren't in the others or are worded possibly less clearly.
JKurz1 said:
5x5 (or 3x3) is with a working set weight so warm up and perform all 5 sets of 5 with a target weight.
1x5 (or 1x3) the target is a single set of 5 with a target weight but you want to pyramid up making a total of 5 sets of 5 (just with the top one being the target). This is particularly important in the volume phase as you want to make sure you get all your volume. Those with a higher capacity for workload can handle a series of heavier weights in the pyramid. Start modestly your first time - meaning if your target weight for the set is 300 don't go 260, 270, 280, 290 .
Wednesday squat workout is 5x5 based off Monday's working weight. Generally it's 10-20% range but be conservative and don't increase it over the cycle as much as Monday's so the % may begin at 12% or whatever and drift down to 20% or even less over the phase.
There are also 3 separate accounts of this program on page 1. Mine, Animalmass's and JS182's. There are a lot of tips to get the most out of it too but between 3 accounts from 3 people you can get a lot of good info out of it. I really suggest giving them all a careful read as there are some really good points in each of them that aren't in the others or are worded possibly less clearly.
wnt2bBeast
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
i dont know how you can squat 5x5 with a near max weight in 20 minutes
if you are truly squatting to near max there is no way you can do it in 20 mins..when i squat on ME day i take upwards of close to 10 minutes between sets it makes a huge difference in the amount of weight you can lift
Im not sure if this pertains to this program, if my remarks are of base for this Madcow just say so lol but i would think one needs to get out of the mentality of of rushing through sets with a time goal...every felx article tells you you should be done in 45 minutes
i dont know how you can squat 5x5 with a near max weight in 20 minutes
if you are truly squatting to near max there is no way you can do it in 20 mins..when i squat on ME day i take upwards of close to 10 minutes between sets it makes a huge difference in the amount of weight you can liftIm not sure if this pertains to this program, if my remarks are of base for this Madcow just say so lol but i would think one needs to get out of the mentality of of rushing through sets with a time goal...every felx article tells you you should be done in 45 minutes
ghettostudmuffin
New member
I gotta agree with wnt2bBeast on the rest time.
I don't count how long I rest between sets, but for squats it's definitely over 5 minutes. Deads are a little less and bench too.
I'm in the gym for probably 1.5 hours on average doing this 5x5 program. I could cut the rest time down, but that would significantly hamper how much weight I could use and I'm not lifting to build up my cardio.
I don't count how long I rest between sets, but for squats it's definitely over 5 minutes. Deads are a little less and bench too.
I'm in the gym for probably 1.5 hours on average doing this 5x5 program. I could cut the rest time down, but that would significantly hamper how much weight I could use and I'm not lifting to build up my cardio.
Tom Treutlein
New member
Ghetto you have a Metroid avatar! Wtf?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
No, you're right. I work as quickly as I am able to and if a workout is light I have no problem hammering away at it. That said, a 5x5 with record or near record weight on the squat takes some time (10 minutes between sets is too much though for this program in the volume stage - 5 minutes is about the limit but you can take a bit more here and there as needed). The other 2 exercises involve pyramids of 5 sets and if you aren't counting dink warmups and just significant pyramiding (but not so high that it hurts your top end performance significantly) this will add up. Plus, squatting, benching, and rowing aren't exactly powder puff exercises. By the time you hit the deloading week you should be begging for it.wnt2bBeast said:i dont know how you can squat 5x5 with a near max weight in 20 minutes
Im not sure if this pertains to this program, if my remarks are of base for this Madcow just say so lol but i would think one needs to get out of the mentality of of rushing through sets with a time goal...every felx article tells you you should be done in 45 minutes
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
1) I'm really trying to provide people with a workout that stimulates a lot of gains in order to give them an alternative to the typical shit you see on the anabolic board where some 6' 185lbs plateaued kid with "perfect diet and training" can actually use this and make good consistent gains rather than jumping on their typical 500mg test, 400mg Equip, 30mg dbol stack (incidentally I have met a former world champion and Olympic medal winner as well as had a close friend who could jerk close to 500 overhead who during their careers never equaled the typical first cycle that used to get recommended here - I myself have also never used a total mg per week dosage as high). Now I'm not so anti-drug that I won't discuss it at all but as this thread will hopefully serve the purpose of a reference I'd prefer not to stack it with drug information as this kind of works against the whole reason I put it here.
2) "The best thing that could ever happen" is relative. For Joe Juicehead using 1gram of test weekly and 100mg of fina per day, the results from 40mg of anavar are going to be a letdown no matter which program one uses. That said, anavar is good at preserving LBM and resulting in strength gain so it should work fine. Of course you want to be very careful training on roids too many people hit maxes too early or do super pump up sets before warming up (use the bar, then do some very low weight, low rep sets to accustom the joints and connective tissue to load). A lot of new strength leaves the tendons in a lagging position so try to avoid this type of stuff (this program contains none of it but I mention it anyway).
3) The real issue is that it complicates things quite a bit. If you read most people's posts, they don't know where to set the weights. Even if most of them tested their max beforehand it will more than likely move during the program as they aren't accustomed to this type of training. This shift is even more pronounced with drugs. The body's tolderances also are enhanced with drugs so someone with a base tolerance established can now handle additional loading and volume as well possibly recuperate faster during the deload. Since you don't have any reference for your natural tolerances and I'm assuming you aren't a career juicehead judging by the dosage and drug choice you aren't going to have a reference for your natural tolerances post cycle and most likely the reference you do have will be fairly close to invalid unless you run a similar cycle again. Also, one needs to be careful about monitoring the hormone levels as you don't want to load heavily and then deload immediately into a low or zero test environment. Likewise with longer esters that take time to build concentration, you can't load as heavily early on as you can later. When you decide to start PCT and come off the drugs you will want to cut volume and keep intensity high (similar to the 2x per week deload). So to incorporate all this you need to adjust your dosage patters and training so that they coincide with each other. This is all made more difficult by not having a previous frame of reference for this style of training. Most people are intimidated by setting the weights, now you have the task of also planning the dosing and training cycle together with the likely requirement of an additional mesocycle specifically for PCT on the end, then possibly another 2-3 week meso for reacclimation. A daunting task for someone new to all this.
A few points:psychedout said:
1) I'm really trying to provide people with a workout that stimulates a lot of gains in order to give them an alternative to the typical shit you see on the anabolic board where some 6' 185lbs plateaued kid with "perfect diet and training" can actually use this and make good consistent gains rather than jumping on their typical 500mg test, 400mg Equip, 30mg dbol stack (incidentally I have met a former world champion and Olympic medal winner as well as had a close friend who could jerk close to 500 overhead who during their careers never equaled the typical first cycle that used to get recommended here - I myself have also never used a total mg per week dosage as high). Now I'm not so anti-drug that I won't discuss it at all but as this thread will hopefully serve the purpose of a reference I'd prefer not to stack it with drug information as this kind of works against the whole reason I put it here.
2) "The best thing that could ever happen" is relative. For Joe Juicehead using 1gram of test weekly and 100mg of fina per day, the results from 40mg of anavar are going to be a letdown no matter which program one uses. That said, anavar is good at preserving LBM and resulting in strength gain so it should work fine. Of course you want to be very careful training on roids too many people hit maxes too early or do super pump up sets before warming up (use the bar, then do some very low weight, low rep sets to accustom the joints and connective tissue to load). A lot of new strength leaves the tendons in a lagging position so try to avoid this type of stuff (this program contains none of it but I mention it anyway).
3) The real issue is that it complicates things quite a bit. If you read most people's posts, they don't know where to set the weights. Even if most of them tested their max beforehand it will more than likely move during the program as they aren't accustomed to this type of training. This shift is even more pronounced with drugs. The body's tolderances also are enhanced with drugs so someone with a base tolerance established can now handle additional loading and volume as well possibly recuperate faster during the deload. Since you don't have any reference for your natural tolerances and I'm assuming you aren't a career juicehead judging by the dosage and drug choice you aren't going to have a reference for your natural tolerances post cycle and most likely the reference you do have will be fairly close to invalid unless you run a similar cycle again. Also, one needs to be careful about monitoring the hormone levels as you don't want to load heavily and then deload immediately into a low or zero test environment. Likewise with longer esters that take time to build concentration, you can't load as heavily early on as you can later. When you decide to start PCT and come off the drugs you will want to cut volume and keep intensity high (similar to the 2x per week deload). So to incorporate all this you need to adjust your dosage patters and training so that they coincide with each other. This is all made more difficult by not having a previous frame of reference for this style of training. Most people are intimidated by setting the weights, now you have the task of also planning the dosing and training cycle together with the likely requirement of an additional mesocycle specifically for PCT on the end, then possibly another 2-3 week meso for reacclimation. A daunting task for someone new to all this.
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I also encourage anyone using the program to post their results, general thoughts/experience, or links to their training logs (you can post a single post complete summary log here but not post by post workouts as this thread will blow up). I figure the more success people see, the more likely they are to use it, and upon seeing the success firsthand for themselves they will become interested enough to try to gain a better understanding of what goes into programming training whether it be for athletics or BBing. A list of good stuff to check out at the bottom of this post for anyone so inclined: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
For those interested, I clipped something ghettostudmuffin said about his progress from another thread.
Source Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383357
I also encourage anyone using the program to post their results, general thoughts/experience, or links to their training logs (you can post a single post complete summary log here but not post by post workouts as this thread will blow up). I figure the more success people see, the more likely they are to use it, and upon seeing the success firsthand for themselves they will become interested enough to try to gain a better understanding of what goes into programming training whether it be for athletics or BBing. A list of good stuff to check out at the bottom of this post for anyone so inclined: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
For those interested, I clipped something ghettostudmuffin said about his progress from another thread.
Source Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383357
GhettoStudMuffin said:
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
GLENN PENDLAY INTERVIEW
For anyone interested Glenn is one of the nation's best strength coaches as well as a hell of a strength athlete. He is someone who really knows training and has trained athletes at the highest levels. He is a mod over at Midwest Barbell's Total Elite forum (http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/) as well as the GoHeavy Olympic Lifting forum which boasts a number of top coaches. He is a man worthy of respect on many levels and not just in the weightroom or coaching.
Enjoy!
http://www.readthecore.com/200503/reynolds-glenn-pendlay.htm
EDIT: - Wow, 4 posts back to back for me. I must be post whoring tonight.
GLENN PENDLAY INTERVIEW
For anyone interested Glenn is one of the nation's best strength coaches as well as a hell of a strength athlete. He is someone who really knows training and has trained athletes at the highest levels. He is a mod over at Midwest Barbell's Total Elite forum (http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/) as well as the GoHeavy Olympic Lifting forum which boasts a number of top coaches. He is a man worthy of respect on many levels and not just in the weightroom or coaching.
Enjoy!
http://www.readthecore.com/200503/reynolds-glenn-pendlay.htm
EDIT: - Wow, 4 posts back to back for me. I must be post whoring tonight.
wnt2bBeast
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
i think a training journal is a great idea..i keep a written one as well as one online at another site..like you said gives others a chance to learn as well as make suggestions and help you progress
Madcow2 said:
i think a training journal is a great idea..i keep a written one as well as one online at another site..like you said gives others a chance to learn as well as make suggestions and help you progress
Carl Carlson
New member
Madcow...
I'm starting week 3 of this routine. I should be setting PR's for my weights.
Unfortunately, when I started this program a few weeks ago I was just coming off of being sick for 2 weeks (and dropping ~10 lbs). Once I was feeling better, I went in the gym and just lifted light to see where my strength was... as you can imagine, it was way down.
I took this into consideration when picking my target weights for each week. For instance, let's say before I got sick, my 1x5 for bench was probably 225, but after being sick it was down to ~185.
The problem is my strength has returned fairly quickly now and I'm back to where I was before I got sick... but the program is setup with lighter weights. Should I continue as is (and add a couple weeks to the volume phase until I catch up to my PR's) or should I increase the weight this week to jump up to my PR?
Other than that, the program is going really well and I like it a lot.
I'm starting week 3 of this routine. I should be setting PR's for my weights.
Unfortunately, when I started this program a few weeks ago I was just coming off of being sick for 2 weeks (and dropping ~10 lbs). Once I was feeling better, I went in the gym and just lifted light to see where my strength was... as you can imagine, it was way down.
I took this into consideration when picking my target weights for each week. For instance, let's say before I got sick, my 1x5 for bench was probably 225, but after being sick it was down to ~185.
The problem is my strength has returned fairly quickly now and I'm back to where I was before I got sick... but the program is setup with lighter weights. Should I continue as is (and add a couple weeks to the volume phase until I catch up to my PR's) or should I increase the weight this week to jump up to my PR?
Other than that, the program is going really well and I like it a lot.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
That's the real question because we don't exactly know how taxing this workout is for you since there is no reference point. BTW - strength does return very quickly as a rule. Anyway, if the load from the first few weeks wasn't very significant (keep in mind you are squating 3x per week and doing a host of other stuff so it's likely at least moderately taxing) you could just extend to 6 weeks and continue ramping. That said, if it was you are going to begin to overtrain without reaching records and getting the opportunity to push yourself and really load heavily with more intense weights.
One option in this situation is take as little time as possible to get to your records. Maybe shooting for 5 weeks total - 6 if you have to. If week 4 is close to a record or just pretty strenuous and you end up really pushing only on week 5 then so be it, the program is good enough that you will still get very solid results and be setup for future training cycles with a relevant reference (it would be a shitty program to have to hit everything perfect).
If you are confident that the weights were set light enough to not overly stress you one the way up (keep in mind you were still training with a load that was significant to your then current max and state of body) then simply going to 6 wouldn't be a big deal.
The bummer is that you have no relevant frame of reference. I'd likely just opt for 6, hope for the best, and if your strength begins to drop off for more than just a single bad day workout (the limits of over-reaching and the beginning of true overtraining) begin the deload immediately.
Carl Carlson said:
That's the real question because we don't exactly know how taxing this workout is for you since there is no reference point. BTW - strength does return very quickly as a rule. Anyway, if the load from the first few weeks wasn't very significant (keep in mind you are squating 3x per week and doing a host of other stuff so it's likely at least moderately taxing) you could just extend to 6 weeks and continue ramping. That said, if it was you are going to begin to overtrain without reaching records and getting the opportunity to push yourself and really load heavily with more intense weights.
One option in this situation is take as little time as possible to get to your records. Maybe shooting for 5 weeks total - 6 if you have to. If week 4 is close to a record or just pretty strenuous and you end up really pushing only on week 5 then so be it, the program is good enough that you will still get very solid results and be setup for future training cycles with a relevant reference (it would be a shitty program to have to hit everything perfect).
If you are confident that the weights were set light enough to not overly stress you one the way up (keep in mind you were still training with a load that was significant to your then current max and state of body) then simply going to 6 wouldn't be a big deal.
The bummer is that you have no relevant frame of reference. I'd likely just opt for 6, hope for the best, and if your strength begins to drop off for more than just a single bad day workout (the limits of over-reaching and the beginning of true overtraining) begin the deload immediately.
JKurz1
Banned
---5X5---
Monday: Squats, Bench, Rows
Weds: Bench, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Bench, Rows
say I start this today with the above outline............
Let's say my max 5 rep bench is 225, max sqat is 400 and max row is 185 for rounding sakes
is this what i do?
BENCH 185X5, 190X5, 200X5, 215X5, 220X5?
SQUAT 400X5 1 SET
ROW 185 X 5 1 SET
THEN ON WED - REDUCE BY 10-20%
THEN FRIDAY, TRY TO SURPASS THE 225 MARK?
Monday: Squats, Bench, Rows
Weds: Bench, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Bench, Rows
say I start this today with the above outline............
Let's say my max 5 rep bench is 225, max sqat is 400 and max row is 185 for rounding sakes
is this what i do?
BENCH 185X5, 190X5, 200X5, 215X5, 220X5?
SQUAT 400X5 1 SET
ROW 185 X 5 1 SET
THEN ON WED - REDUCE BY 10-20%
THEN FRIDAY, TRY TO SURPASS THE 225 MARK?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Not sure if you saw the above answer:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4632776&postcount=148
Also, you are training right at your maxes in week 1. This is where you want to be in week 3/4 (or slightly above). There is no room to ramp the weights under this initial weight selection unless your maxes are inaccruate:
In looking at this - you're missing a lot of info that's covered in detail in this thread.
1) Weights are ramped to records so you have to start lighter and conservatively
2) Mondays generally have squats for 5x5 (not 1x5 for a working set weight not a single set). I don't see anything being done for 5x5 on Monday
3) The other two exercises are pyramided (usually bench/rows for 5 total sets).
4) Wednesday is a totally different workout where you are scaling other exercises (DL, Military, chins) to 5x5 goals in weeks 3/4. The only exception to this is the squats which are performed for 5x5 at a working set weight 10-20% less than Monday's squat.
5) Friday is the inverse of Monday (i.e. if Monday was squat 5x5, bench 1x5, and row 1x5 then Friday is Squat 1x5, bench 5x5, row 5x5). In addition, you have a totally separate goal in week 3/4 for your 1x5 verions than your 5x5 versions. These weights are independent and ramp separately.
So, the first Monday might look like this given your listed maxes (really rough and fast):
SQUAT warm up to 315 for 5x5 (weight will increase to goal 5x5 in week 3/4)
BENCH 135x5, 145x5, 165x5, 175x5, 190x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
ROW 100x5, 115x5, 125x5, 140x5, 155x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
In all honesty, I don't know whether you typed this out in haste and just weren't clear or you just missed a bunch of stuff (no offense intended I'm just wondering how you came away with this or if it's just miscommunication). This workout is fairly simple but it is very different from the standard (and largely ineffective) BBing workouts so it's going to take some investment of time to read through everything to make sure you have it right. Page 1 in this thread is critical - it contains not 1 but 3 separate explanations of this program from 3 separate individuals. I'd sit down and focus on them jotting notes on a pad as there are some tid bits and hints that appear in 1 but don't appear in others but nonetheless the core is well explained in each. In addition, some of this material is geared to adjusting on the fly, likely mistakes, what happens should one fail. I would also read through the rest of this thread as many questions have been brought forward and answered in a fair amount of depth and I believe most of the points I raised have been questioned and explained.
JKurz1 said:
Not sure if you saw the above answer:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4632776&postcount=148
Also, you are training right at your maxes in week 1. This is where you want to be in week 3/4 (or slightly above). There is no room to ramp the weights under this initial weight selection unless your maxes are inaccruate:
In looking at this - you're missing a lot of info that's covered in detail in this thread.
1) Weights are ramped to records so you have to start lighter and conservatively
2) Mondays generally have squats for 5x5 (not 1x5 for a working set weight not a single set). I don't see anything being done for 5x5 on Monday
3) The other two exercises are pyramided (usually bench/rows for 5 total sets).
4) Wednesday is a totally different workout where you are scaling other exercises (DL, Military, chins) to 5x5 goals in weeks 3/4. The only exception to this is the squats which are performed for 5x5 at a working set weight 10-20% less than Monday's squat.
5) Friday is the inverse of Monday (i.e. if Monday was squat 5x5, bench 1x5, and row 1x5 then Friday is Squat 1x5, bench 5x5, row 5x5). In addition, you have a totally separate goal in week 3/4 for your 1x5 verions than your 5x5 versions. These weights are independent and ramp separately.
So, the first Monday might look like this given your listed maxes (really rough and fast):
SQUAT warm up to 315 for 5x5 (weight will increase to goal 5x5 in week 3/4)
BENCH 135x5, 145x5, 165x5, 175x5, 190x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
ROW 100x5, 115x5, 125x5, 140x5, 155x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
In all honesty, I don't know whether you typed this out in haste and just weren't clear or you just missed a bunch of stuff (no offense intended I'm just wondering how you came away with this or if it's just miscommunication). This workout is fairly simple but it is very different from the standard (and largely ineffective) BBing workouts so it's going to take some investment of time to read through everything to make sure you have it right. Page 1 in this thread is critical - it contains not 1 but 3 separate explanations of this program from 3 separate individuals. I'd sit down and focus on them jotting notes on a pad as there are some tid bits and hints that appear in 1 but don't appear in others but nonetheless the core is well explained in each. In addition, some of this material is geared to adjusting on the fly, likely mistakes, what happens should one fail. I would also read through the rest of this thread as many questions have been brought forward and answered in a fair amount of depth and I believe most of the points I raised have been questioned and explained.
blut wump
New member
The thing to remember over the volume loading phase is that every exercise is done over 5 sets plus any extra sets you throw in as warm-ups. In the ones marked as 5x5 you'd do some warm-ups and then all 5 sets at a set weight. The exercises which are marked as 1x5 are also 5 sets of 5, the difference being that you ramp up to a heavier fifth set. In my log posting I didn't make any extra note of the weights used for ramping up in the 1x5 exercises and just posted the weight I used in the final set of the 5 sets.JKurz1 said:
You'd be doing at least 15 working sets per workout plus any extra arm, abs, cardio, grip work you'd want to throw in. There's little need to worry about being out of the gym in 20 minutes and there's no problem throwing in some isolation DB exercises once you've done the given exercises. If you happen to have a gazelle lying around then add that in too. Just don't go crazy and blast away to failure; maybe 3 sets of 8 and move on. When the deloading week comes around, you'll be glad for the changeover.
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Yeah - just make sure you are building each week to hit records in week 3/4 for each lift on each day (so don't start at your max). As for aux work - you won't be able to tolerate much if the weights are set correctly (meaning by week 3/4 you won't be able to do much else and anything you are doing will slide away). Good stuff to include would be barbell curls on monday for 3x8-10 reps and tricept extensions on friday for the same (arms get bombed with all the rowing and pressing anyway). On off days do some core work for your abs/lower back, do some cardio, rotator cuff exercises, stretching, whatever.
Your bench pyramid is also too narrow for a top set of 225. It will significantly tax you on the way up. I don't know if it was just a random example but it's spaced way too close.
EDIT:
I really caution you against starting it unless you are 100% sure you have everything down and a complete understanding. If you start too high you screw this program up and basically waste your time so it's worth a few days of delay to review and make sure you have everything down. Print that entire first page, bring it to the john and take a long crap if you have to. Once again, I'm not meaning to offend but a couple of the things you've posted give me the feeling that you might benefit from rereading some of that stuff.
Yeah - just make sure you are building each week to hit records in week 3/4 for each lift on each day (so don't start at your max). As for aux work - you won't be able to tolerate much if the weights are set correctly (meaning by week 3/4 you won't be able to do much else and anything you are doing will slide away). Good stuff to include would be barbell curls on monday for 3x8-10 reps and tricept extensions on friday for the same (arms get bombed with all the rowing and pressing anyway). On off days do some core work for your abs/lower back, do some cardio, rotator cuff exercises, stretching, whatever.
Your bench pyramid is also too narrow for a top set of 225. It will significantly tax you on the way up. I don't know if it was just a random example but it's spaced way too close.
EDIT:
I really caution you against starting it unless you are 100% sure you have everything down and a complete understanding. If you start too high you screw this program up and basically waste your time so it's worth a few days of delay to review and make sure you have everything down. Print that entire first page, bring it to the john and take a long crap if you have to. Once again, I'm not meaning to offend but a couple of the things you've posted give me the feeling that you might benefit from rereading some of that stuff.
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ghettostudmuffin
New member
Progress update.
Weighed myself today before and after lifting.
Before: 228lbs
After 230lbs
I was fairly dried out before lifting and had only had a protein shake an hour before. I figure I'm not any lighter than about 228 right now and probably be hitting 231-232 by the end of the day.
This is getting ridiculous in a GREAT way. I can't believe how the weight is packing on! This is the 6th week, or beginning of the intensity phase and I have already gained depending on how you look at, 14-16lbs depending on how hydrated I am. That's just obscene lol. I've gained like 6 more pounds in a week and I'm not even gorging myself, just eating a solid amount of food every 3 hours or so. I'm only taking tribulus and protein powder at the moment as I'm taking a break from creatine during the intensity phase and resuming on the next volume cycle. If this routine don't throw the weight, size and strength on you, NOTHING WILL! Best routine ever imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Weighed myself today before and after lifting.
Before: 228lbs
After 230lbs
I was fairly dried out before lifting and had only had a protein shake an hour before. I figure I'm not any lighter than about 228 right now and probably be hitting 231-232 by the end of the day.
This is getting ridiculous in a GREAT way. I can't believe how the weight is packing on! This is the 6th week, or beginning of the intensity phase and I have already gained depending on how you look at, 14-16lbs depending on how hydrated I am. That's just obscene lol. I've gained like 6 more pounds in a week and I'm not even gorging myself, just eating a solid amount of food every 3 hours or so. I'm only taking tribulus and protein powder at the moment as I'm taking a break from creatine during the intensity phase and resuming on the next volume cycle. If this routine don't throw the weight, size and strength on you, NOTHING WILL! Best routine ever imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
psychedout
New member
I just started this today, and I am going to be completely honest. It was way harder than I expected it to be!
JKurz1
Banned
very nice bro...better than 196 for 3 at 350lbs.......
ATF right?
THats the one thing that's gonna hold me back from this routine..........I can't stand leg day......no denying it.......I do it every friggn week, squat hard, but no denying how much I hate it.........squats 3x a week won't last for me...........
ATF right?
THats the one thing that's gonna hold me back from this routine..........I can't stand leg day......no denying it.......I do it every friggn week, squat hard, but no denying how much I hate it.........squats 3x a week won't last for me...........
wallcrawler
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I'm still not clear on how the power shrug is performed. I understand starting with the hang just above the knees, but then what? Is there a picture tutorial on this somewhere?
Madcow2 said:
I'm still not clear on how the power shrug is performed. I understand starting with the hang just above the knees, but then what? Is there a picture tutorial on this somewhere?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/muscle_group68.html
Look up the 'hang clean pull' - there is a video too. You are basically doing the same thing except that the weight is so heavy you can only accelerate it to the shrug position. Do not arm the weight at all. At the top of the shrug your body should be fully extened and the weight should be weightless for a moment (lighter weights may explode upward a bit requiring you to bend your arms - that's fine). Try to hold your traps in your ears (you won't be able to). Return the weight and repeat. Generally this is performed from the high hang position closer to the upper thighs but I tend to have people unfamiliar with the olympic lifts perform it from the traditional hang position as it's more of a full body movement and trains explosion better. Plus I'm not a fan of pulling much more than the shrug in any variation of the high pull anyway for several reasons that are a bit beyond the scope of this.
wallcrawler said:
http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/muscle_group68.html
Look up the 'hang clean pull' - there is a video too. You are basically doing the same thing except that the weight is so heavy you can only accelerate it to the shrug position. Do not arm the weight at all. At the top of the shrug your body should be fully extened and the weight should be weightless for a moment (lighter weights may explode upward a bit requiring you to bend your arms - that's fine). Try to hold your traps in your ears (you won't be able to). Return the weight and repeat. Generally this is performed from the high hang position closer to the upper thighs but I tend to have people unfamiliar with the olympic lifts perform it from the traditional hang position as it's more of a full body movement and trains explosion better. Plus I'm not a fan of pulling much more than the shrug in any variation of the high pull anyway for several reasons that are a bit beyond the scope of this.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Oh yeah. Absolutely essential. There's no way an overhand grip can stand up to that kind of weight and momentum. Even a hook grip will get eaten away quickly if one is able to hold it. - still start light though and build up over a few weeks. Very taxing and very strenuous.
Oh yeah. Absolutely essential. There's no way an overhand grip can stand up to that kind of weight and momentum. Even a hook grip will get eaten away quickly if one is able to hold it. - still start light though and build up over a few weeks. Very taxing and very strenuous.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
???? ???? ?
Bionic
I bought some hooks from ProWrits Straps ( a good company, IMO...) but when I went to use them for DL's, they slid inwards, and I wasnt able to maintain a wide grip. Same with weighted pullups. Maybe they'll be useful for dumbell rows.Madcow2 said:
????
???? ?Bionic
Rows should be heavy and dynamic (accelerating the concentric portion of the rep). If they slide on those they will certainly slide here. Just get a cheap pair of basic straps - you only need to wrap the bar once and this is preferable because the release will be fast and identical between sides so in the event of an emergency release, less chance of injury. It's a bummer to own them and have to replace them with something cheap and basic but I really don't know of any good use for those.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Bionic
Oh, dont get me wrong, I own straps too, I use them a lot actually, but Im kinda pissed I spend over $20 on some bullshit from an otherwise great company.Madcow2 said:
Bionic
psychedout
New member
JKurz1 said:
Flat Bench 5x5
BB row paralell to ground 5x5
ATF Squat 2x20
Skull Crushers 5x5
DB Hammer curls 1 drop set 7-5-5-5 I beleive
Seated Calve Raise 1x20, 1x15
super_rice
New member
have you read any of the conversation that's been going on?
there are two distinctly different 5x5 workouts on elite.
there are two distinctly different 5x5 workouts on elite.
He changed the squat part - otherwise it's still the same program. Nixing the heavy squats does take away from the overall stress/stimulus/effectiveness of the program. They really are a full body exercise. That said, it's still a good enough program to produce gains but in general, the squats are the last thing you want to screw with.JKurz1 said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Here's another boardmember experiencing some very positive results with the program. This is really some solid progress - he's up 16lbs in 7 weeks and making good strength gains.
Source Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382469
Here's another boardmember experiencing some very positive results with the program. This is really some solid progress - he's up 16lbs in 7 weeks and making good strength gains.
Source Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382469
ceasar989 said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
BEYOND THE 5x5 - PLANNING YOUR TRAINING CYCLES:
Multiple things are covered - this was actually a response to ceasar989's question in the quote above. The main point is to understand that the 5x5 is just a very well laid out general purpose dual factor program. It has produced great results accross a very broad range of athletes over decades. This serves to intoduce the implementation of dual factor theory and give someone a level of experience and comfort (as well as a lot of gains!) with the system. All that said, you can't do it forever (although a couple runs back to back is fine as well as cycling back to it semi-regularly as your core fundemental training). But, you can use the structure and adapt it. In this explanation I'm trying to illustrate how one might utilize and adapt the structure as well as how one would use a dual factor structure to plan longer training cycles. There is some terminology macro/meso/microcycles but this is just so people can talk about it logically and organize around it - they actually fit nicely into a full year training plan. You can call them whatever you want but the terms are standard and as you gain experience, pin down your own tolerances, and find the need to incorporate specialized training they are the easiest way to think about it.
Source Thread:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382469
BEYOND THE 5x5 - PLANNING YOUR TRAINING CYCLES:
Multiple things are covered - this was actually a response to ceasar989's question in the quote above. The main point is to understand that the 5x5 is just a very well laid out general purpose dual factor program. It has produced great results accross a very broad range of athletes over decades. This serves to intoduce the implementation of dual factor theory and give someone a level of experience and comfort (as well as a lot of gains!) with the system. All that said, you can't do it forever (although a couple runs back to back is fine as well as cycling back to it semi-regularly as your core fundemental training). But, you can use the structure and adapt it. In this explanation I'm trying to illustrate how one might utilize and adapt the structure as well as how one would use a dual factor structure to plan longer training cycles. There is some terminology macro/meso/microcycles but this is just so people can talk about it logically and organize around it - they actually fit nicely into a full year training plan. You can call them whatever you want but the terms are standard and as you gain experience, pin down your own tolerances, and find the need to incorporate specialized training they are the easiest way to think about it.
Source Thread:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382469
Madcow2 said:
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
LOL - Ironically, even though it doesn't apply to the BBers who's training is shit for the most part, there is a huge focus on pumping quality food into athletes. Assuming training is excellent and the athlete is dedicated (a lot to hold constant) - diet becomes a very large factor again. The main problem is that the majority of the people who say it have dogshit training and perfect diet. Under that scenario as long as diet is reasonable and we aren't eating Aushwitz style meals training is an overwhelmingly important factor.
Basically, if you hold constant a perfect stimulus (training) maximizing the response (diet) is a controlling factor. However if you let the stimulus vary, the best diet (response) won't get you anywhere if the training sucks (stimulus). Of course the way BBing has approached it is to take enough drugs to magnify the response to where any stimulus (even none - just look at farmers juicing cattle) will work and then they tweak diet to maximize it. Of course, a better stimulus allows even a drugged athlete to either get more gains from a given dosage or make equivalent gains at a lesser dosage. But really, if someone below their genetic potential requires the testosterone of 20 men just to put on some muscle - we are dealing with a horrid imbalance here.
EDIT: Ironically this was ceasar989's last post making specific mention of eating a shitty diet and still gaining. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643616&postcount=20
JKurz1 said:
LOL - Ironically, even though it doesn't apply to the BBers who's training is shit for the most part, there is a huge focus on pumping quality food into athletes. Assuming training is excellent and the athlete is dedicated (a lot to hold constant) - diet becomes a very large factor again. The main problem is that the majority of the people who say it have dogshit training and perfect diet. Under that scenario as long as diet is reasonable and we aren't eating Aushwitz style meals training is an overwhelmingly important factor.
Basically, if you hold constant a perfect stimulus (training) maximizing the response (diet) is a controlling factor. However if you let the stimulus vary, the best diet (response) won't get you anywhere if the training sucks (stimulus). Of course the way BBing has approached it is to take enough drugs to magnify the response to where any stimulus (even none - just look at farmers juicing cattle) will work and then they tweak diet to maximize it. Of course, a better stimulus allows even a drugged athlete to either get more gains from a given dosage or make equivalent gains at a lesser dosage. But really, if someone below their genetic potential requires the testosterone of 20 men just to put on some muscle - we are dealing with a horrid imbalance here.
EDIT: Ironically this was ceasar989's last post making specific mention of eating a shitty diet and still gaining. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643616&postcount=20
psychedout
New member
JKurz1 said:
I might do a couple days of 5x5 of 5x3 or something in there, but basically, my thigh development is quite satisfactory at the moment, and I am not interested in building them up so much as mainataining them. I find 20 rep squats to be great for getting the metabolism going to. Might be all psychological, but I swear they really get it going fast.
Boss101
New member
I've been reading this thread for the last few days and I just want to make sure I have the routine right.
If my max bb row is 1x5 for 200
In week 1 I would start off lighter and work up to and try to beat my max. So on Mon my rows each week would look something like this.
week 1 pyramid up to 160
week 2 pyramid up to 180
week 3 pyramid up to 200
week 4 pyramid up and set a new record
If I get 210 in week 4, week 5 on Mon would be 1x3 210.
If my 3 rep max on the bb row is 225. I wouldn't ramp correct? I would look at week 4 weights and add 5-10 and go from there trying to add weight each workout for the next 4 weeks?
When I start back on the volume phase I would put my record weight of 210 in week 3, start lighter in weeks 1-2 and set a new record in week 4?
Is this right?
Question about exercises selection.
Could I do sumo deadlift instead of conventional deadlift?
Why are military presses done standing? I've always done them seated are standing better? How do you recommend to do them. From vids and pics online some people lower to their chin and others to their chest. Should I keep my elbows out or close to my body?
I tried the bb row from the floor yesterday. Even though the weight was light I was having a hard time keeping my head, I should be looking up and not down?
If my max bb row is 1x5 for 200
In week 1 I would start off lighter and work up to and try to beat my max. So on Mon my rows each week would look something like this.
week 1 pyramid up to 160
week 2 pyramid up to 180
week 3 pyramid up to 200
week 4 pyramid up and set a new record
If I get 210 in week 4, week 5 on Mon would be 1x3 210.
If my 3 rep max on the bb row is 225. I wouldn't ramp correct? I would look at week 4 weights and add 5-10 and go from there trying to add weight each workout for the next 4 weeks?
When I start back on the volume phase I would put my record weight of 210 in week 3, start lighter in weeks 1-2 and set a new record in week 4?
Is this right?
Question about exercises selection.
Could I do sumo deadlift instead of conventional deadlift?
Why are military presses done standing? I've always done them seated are standing better? How do you recommend to do them. From vids and pics online some people lower to their chin and others to their chest. Should I keep my elbows out or close to my body?
I tried the bb row from the floor yesterday. Even though the weight was light I was having a hard time keeping my head, I should be looking up and not down?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Yes and no. You have everything right up until here:
"If my 3 rep max on the bb row is 225. I wouldn't ramp correct? I would look at week 4 weights and add 5-10 and go from there trying to add weight each workout for the next 4 weeks?"
You are still ramping to records - unless you are dealing with really light weights where you don't have plates to match the required ramp (or the gap between your best 5 and best 3 is very small) you are still ramping. For week 5 you switch to 3x3 and drop the Wednesday squat. You are going to be very thankful for this week. After that you are ramping upward to records in 3x3 and 1x3. There should be enough room to continue to move the weight up.
Also - this is the way I want you to run the records the first time with your previous best on week 3 and exceed it on week 4. The reason being that if you start too high you can't ramp the weights and the load is too much too soon basically botching the program so conservatism pays off. That said, once you have a relevant max (let's say you run this program a second time) you want to best it on week 3 and 4 (after all, it's not a new record if you don't push it up). So if going into the program with a 200 max, you might do 165, 185, 205, 215 for example weeks 1,2,3,4 respectively. Don't do this the first time though as people historically overshoot which is why I harp on it. Alternatively those not used to the program can run the initial phase for 6 weeks starting much lighter and progressing to records in weeks 5/6 before deloading and continuing on to the Intensity. It might look like 100, 135, 165, 185, 200*, 210* where * indicated records.
1) Yes, although I believe that for general athletics and development the conventional is the supperior developer although most people find that sumo provides the best functional use of existing strength.
2) Far better full body exercise due to stability required to press overhead. A lot lower likelyhood of turning it into an incline too. The low point depends a lot upon how long one's forearms are. If you have long arms your low point is much less advantageous for pressing than someone elses. That said, always aim for full range of motion but don't kill yourself - do what's comfortable. Elbows don't matter much it will largely be a function of your hand placement as there's less varriance for your elbows overhead than on the bench. Do what feels best.
3) Well, for the dynamic rows - part of the exercise is in arching the back with both the lats and the errectors while rowing. When you go from starting to arch your head generally moves. I'm not advocating looking down at all (you will almost certainly round badly) but it's often helpful to start with your head looking out and forward and then initiate by arching which leads the head up (it's all attached to the same spine so it goes together). It's tough to describe, I never really broke it down like that but it should do the job. Let me know if you have issues. (also, to do this you need to be rowing with 135 or have full sized lighter discs). Also key is to accelerate the row into you just like an oar in the water where the rower is always pulling as hard as possible which continuously accelerates the oar. I think I have a Bolded Article a few pages back on the importance of acceleration in strength, hypertrophy and stimulating a training response.
Boss101 said:
Yes and no. You have everything right up until here:
"If my 3 rep max on the bb row is 225. I wouldn't ramp correct? I would look at week 4 weights and add 5-10 and go from there trying to add weight each workout for the next 4 weeks?"
You are still ramping to records - unless you are dealing with really light weights where you don't have plates to match the required ramp (or the gap between your best 5 and best 3 is very small) you are still ramping. For week 5 you switch to 3x3 and drop the Wednesday squat. You are going to be very thankful for this week. After that you are ramping upward to records in 3x3 and 1x3. There should be enough room to continue to move the weight up.
Also - this is the way I want you to run the records the first time with your previous best on week 3 and exceed it on week 4. The reason being that if you start too high you can't ramp the weights and the load is too much too soon basically botching the program so conservatism pays off. That said, once you have a relevant max (let's say you run this program a second time) you want to best it on week 3 and 4 (after all, it's not a new record if you don't push it up). So if going into the program with a 200 max, you might do 165, 185, 205, 215 for example weeks 1,2,3,4 respectively. Don't do this the first time though as people historically overshoot which is why I harp on it. Alternatively those not used to the program can run the initial phase for 6 weeks starting much lighter and progressing to records in weeks 5/6 before deloading and continuing on to the Intensity. It might look like 100, 135, 165, 185, 200*, 210* where * indicated records.
Boss101 said:
1) Yes, although I believe that for general athletics and development the conventional is the supperior developer although most people find that sumo provides the best functional use of existing strength.
2) Far better full body exercise due to stability required to press overhead. A lot lower likelyhood of turning it into an incline too. The low point depends a lot upon how long one's forearms are. If you have long arms your low point is much less advantageous for pressing than someone elses. That said, always aim for full range of motion but don't kill yourself - do what's comfortable. Elbows don't matter much it will largely be a function of your hand placement as there's less varriance for your elbows overhead than on the bench. Do what feels best.
3) Well, for the dynamic rows - part of the exercise is in arching the back with both the lats and the errectors while rowing. When you go from starting to arch your head generally moves. I'm not advocating looking down at all (you will almost certainly round badly) but it's often helpful to start with your head looking out and forward and then initiate by arching which leads the head up (it's all attached to the same spine so it goes together). It's tough to describe, I never really broke it down like that but it should do the job. Let me know if you have issues. (also, to do this you need to be rowing with 135 or have full sized lighter discs). Also key is to accelerate the row into you just like an oar in the water where the rower is always pulling as hard as possible which continuously accelerates the oar. I think I have a Bolded Article a few pages back on the importance of acceleration in strength, hypertrophy and stimulating a training response.
Berkiebtvs
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Hey really like this program...but one of the things thats holding me back from starting is my current avaliable day split...I am only able to get to the gym- Wed, Thurs, Sat and Sun....And as you can tell theres no way to make up any split like the m,w,f one proposed...would it be ok to do a wed, thurs, sat? or something to that effect? I'm not making excuses for the days I cannot make it to the gym...my gym closes at 11...and with school and work, and going into the city every day...theres no way to do it on the three days i havent mentioned...thanks so much in advance...
-Matt
Hey really like this program...but one of the things thats holding me back from starting is my current avaliable day split...I am only able to get to the gym- Wed, Thurs, Sat and Sun....And as you can tell theres no way to make up any split like the m,w,f one proposed...would it be ok to do a wed, thurs, sat? or something to that effect? I'm not making excuses for the days I cannot make it to the gym...my gym closes at 11...and with school and work, and going into the city every day...theres no way to do it on the three days i havent mentioned...thanks so much in advance...
-Matt
Berkiebtvs
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I was just curious....since I am not able to (scared to) do Military Press (shoulder surgery, dislocation) I saw you suggested Incline Press for this? Incline Chest Press? Would a Hammer Strength Chest Plate Loaded Incline Machine be sufficient (ive noticed your disdain for machines, but sometimes this helps me with my shoulder.)
Also how much time would you reccommend to rest in between the sets of 5x5? 2-3 mins? ex: 1 set bench, rest 2mins, 2nd set bench, rest...etc
Thanks in advance
-matt
I was just curious....since I am not able to (scared to) do Military Press (shoulder surgery, dislocation) I saw you suggested Incline Press for this? Incline Chest Press? Would a Hammer Strength Chest Plate Loaded Incline Machine be sufficient (ive noticed your disdain for machines, but sometimes this helps me with my shoulder.)
Also how much time would you reccommend to rest in between the sets of 5x5? 2-3 mins? ex: 1 set bench, rest 2mins, 2nd set bench, rest...etc
Thanks in advance
-matt
Last edited:
psychedout
New member
Madcow, what do you suggest if your shoulders hurt on flat bb bench. DB bench?
I answered the last two below:
Well, machines just aren't a good stimulus. That's the bottom line. I don't disdain them at all and feel that they can serve very well in a rehab scenario or one where someone suffers from a specific imbalance that is impeding them from progress in the more core lifts. I use them for this purpose and they've served me very well.
Now for building muscle or strength - they're shit. Pure and simple, no bones about it. They just don't work well and the stimulus is poor. I can take a super disciplined individual with phenomenal work ethic and a lazy bastard who goes through the motions. I give them the same workout with the lazy bastard on free weights and the superdiciplinarian on machine variations. Guess what. Mr. Lazy Bastard is gonna blow past the guy in results.
So if I'm going to spend time in the gym I'm going to use the best equipment for me to get from point A to B in the most expedicious manner. More often than not, that means mostly free weights unless I have a special requirement.
Now Hammer Strength I do happen to disdain. Beautiful equipment but if I'm using a machine I want to be as lazy as possible and those things make you load plates onto a machine. If I'm moving around tonnage I'm using free weights. Most of the hypertrophy in natural lifters caused by Hammer is no doubt from moving the plates around. I'm half joking here but you get my point. I'm not the only one who holds this opinion on machines - it is fairly universal although there are some excelent specialty machines out there like glute/ham raise, reverse hyper etc...
When I suggested Inclines it was incline barbell presses. I'd be more concerned with rehabing your shoulder and ensuring it's strong again. I've had a dislocation in the past and just healed up a torn labrum recently (neither lifting related). What a whore shoulders are. I'd work light and try to get that puppy back in shape. Hell, I couldn't press over 135 for 7 months without searing pain. Believe me, I know the shoulder deal and those injuries take a long time to heal.
You do what you have to do but make no mistake that the stimulus suffers in orders of magnitude from using a machine variant.
As for shoulders hurting on flat bench. I honestly think the best substitute is a slight incline bench which is a bit more healthy on the body. Dumbells are good but the issue is that you can't apply as much weight to the system so the stimulus for general growth tends to be weaker although for specialty work there can certainly be a rational as dumbells are miles ahead of machines and just a bit behind barbells for general purposes.
Well, machines just aren't a good stimulus. That's the bottom line. I don't disdain them at all and feel that they can serve very well in a rehab scenario or one where someone suffers from a specific imbalance that is impeding them from progress in the more core lifts. I use them for this purpose and they've served me very well.
Now for building muscle or strength - they're shit. Pure and simple, no bones about it. They just don't work well and the stimulus is poor. I can take a super disciplined individual with phenomenal work ethic and a lazy bastard who goes through the motions. I give them the same workout with the lazy bastard on free weights and the superdiciplinarian on machine variations. Guess what. Mr. Lazy Bastard is gonna blow past the guy in results.
So if I'm going to spend time in the gym I'm going to use the best equipment for me to get from point A to B in the most expedicious manner. More often than not, that means mostly free weights unless I have a special requirement.
Now Hammer Strength I do happen to disdain. Beautiful equipment but if I'm using a machine I want to be as lazy as possible and those things make you load plates onto a machine. If I'm moving around tonnage I'm using free weights. Most of the hypertrophy in natural lifters caused by Hammer is no doubt from moving the plates around. I'm half joking here but you get my point. I'm not the only one who holds this opinion on machines - it is fairly universal although there are some excelent specialty machines out there like glute/ham raise, reverse hyper etc...
When I suggested Inclines it was incline barbell presses. I'd be more concerned with rehabing your shoulder and ensuring it's strong again. I've had a dislocation in the past and just healed up a torn labrum recently (neither lifting related). What a whore shoulders are. I'd work light and try to get that puppy back in shape. Hell, I couldn't press over 135 for 7 months without searing pain. Believe me, I know the shoulder deal and those injuries take a long time to heal.
You do what you have to do but make no mistake that the stimulus suffers in orders of magnitude from using a machine variant.
As for shoulders hurting on flat bench. I honestly think the best substitute is a slight incline bench which is a bit more healthy on the body. Dumbells are good but the issue is that you can't apply as much weight to the system so the stimulus for general growth tends to be weaker although for specialty work there can certainly be a rational as dumbells are miles ahead of machines and just a bit behind barbells for general purposes.
Berkiebtvs
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
sounds good...yeah i've had no luck with shoulders...I had a left shoulder repair because it was slipping...which I tried to rehab back...still with pain when I lift...then dislocated the right...ive had no luck...but i truly believe that my pain comes from doing a lot of reps in a row...my shoulder would start to hurt on the 7-10 rep part of a normal work out...not really weight dependent more of a frequency dependent thing...which is why I'm trying to turn to a different work out where less reps, higher weight may work better for me...or my shoulder might fall out...i'm not quite sure how my theory holds hehe
-Matt
sounds good...yeah i've had no luck with shoulders...I had a left shoulder repair because it was slipping...which I tried to rehab back...still with pain when I lift...then dislocated the right...ive had no luck...but i truly believe that my pain comes from doing a lot of reps in a row...my shoulder would start to hurt on the 7-10 rep part of a normal work out...not really weight dependent more of a frequency dependent thing...which is why I'm trying to turn to a different work out where less reps, higher weight may work better for me...or my shoulder might fall out...i'm not quite sure how my theory holds hehe
-Matt
Madcow2 said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I think your theory has a major issue. This is not my area of expertise but you might want to run this symptom by an orthopedist - preferably someone with a lot of sports experience.
When doing reps the weakest link in the chain begins to fail first and then gets carried by the others. That gradual pain sounds like there might be a lot of weakness in the interior shoulder muscles relative to the exterior muscles involved in the lift. I can't say for sure if this is true in your scenario but obviously it's not the range of motion or a specific position - it is fatigue related in some way. It might also be certain interior muscles failing which then aggrivates something else in the shoulder as the alignment changes post small muscle-failure as the reps continue and your body shifts the alignment to a more mechanically advantageous angle.
This is all conjecture but this is something that you want to address. If you drop the rep range and have weak interrior muscles the failure could be far more dramatic rather than gradual and leave you with another injury.
Berkiebtvs said:
I think your theory has a major issue. This is not my area of expertise but you might want to run this symptom by an orthopedist - preferably someone with a lot of sports experience.
When doing reps the weakest link in the chain begins to fail first and then gets carried by the others. That gradual pain sounds like there might be a lot of weakness in the interior shoulder muscles relative to the exterior muscles involved in the lift. I can't say for sure if this is true in your scenario but obviously it's not the range of motion or a specific position - it is fatigue related in some way. It might also be certain interior muscles failing which then aggrivates something else in the shoulder as the alignment changes post small muscle-failure as the reps continue and your body shifts the alignment to a more mechanically advantageous angle.
This is all conjecture but this is something that you want to address. If you drop the rep range and have weak interrior muscles the failure could be far more dramatic rather than gradual and leave you with another injury.
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