Beware the effects of Anastrazole

[Komo]

Ok, forget it man, I was getting out of line! you are right....

What I don`t understand though is why the aromatase blockers do not suffice when it comes to prventing shitty lipid profiles..
It should only be a dose matter, right. There will still be an abundance of estrogen in the system compared to the (natural) estrogen concentrations...

Maybe you are right on target here, but could you please post the reference where they show that nolva/clomid do "work" as estrogens in the liver?

Best regards Komo

 

[40butpumpin]

fhg43, while I don't want to seem like an ass, I do stand by my statements.

The bottom line is, for me anyway, that cholesterol does not -- not even LDL cholesterol -- clog ateries. Hardened plaque is what clogs arteries and plaque is not made up entirely of ldl cholesterol, not even close. It also doesn't turn into plaque on its own. There is a very complex process that is taking place there on the arterial wall that even today is not defined by the greatest medical minds in the world. If you can figure it out you'll probably get the Nobel prize. Simplifying it by saying that "cholesterol clogs arteries" is insulting and simply inaccurate.

You cannot get arterial plaque from ldl cholesterol any more than you can build a foundation for a house with water. Without the lime and cement, you simply do not get the hardened concrete.

This is critical because preventing this process from taking place is possible, even with a poor lipid profile (high LDL). If this weren't true then people with great lipid profiles shouldn't be getting CV disease -- but they are.

I won't repeat the points I made in my previous posts in this thread, however, I will say that plaque does not form over night, nor in a few months from having high levels of LDL from taking AAS or Arimidex. Again, you need to have all of the components in place for the plaque formation process to take place. If you're young, healthy, living a clean life-style including diet, exercise and critical supplements, you have NOTHING to fear from a high LDL reading. You are not going to die of a heart attack in the coming months. C-reactive protein is a test you can get to determine your risk for having a heart attack and which involves the inflammation conditions in your arteries. I already talked about supp's to take to minimize this risk.

 

[fhg43]

fhg43, while I don't want to seem like an ass, I do stand by my statements.

40-you are a good bro and post positive stuff on the boards. I respect that. However you are diss'in me and that's not cool. I'm not an MD, but I made some valid points and supported them.

The bottom line is, for me anyway, that cholesterol does not -- not even LDL cholesterol -- clog ateries. Hardened plaque is what clogs arteries and plaque is not made up entirely of ldl cholesterol, not even close. It also doesn't turn into plaque on its own. There is a very complex process that is taking place there on the arterial wall that even today is not defined by the greatest medical minds in the world. If you can figure it out you'll probably get the Nobel prize. Simplifying it by saying that "cholesterol clogs arteries" is insulting and simply inaccurate.

You are insulting me-kinduv. Estradiol inhibits expression of VCAM-1 in coronary arteries, expression of VCAM-1 is one of the early stages of atherogenesis, atherogenesis is the 'formation of abnormal fatty or lipid masses in arterial walls', constriction of arteries is a component of CV disease.

All the stuff I posted follows linearly from beginning to end-you don't have to like it. I don't-but the science and research is there and says that is the way it works...generally accepted medical resources spell it out. My wording is too simple-just by eating food w/cholesterol you are not going to clog your arteries, but if the other factors exist, over a long period of time high cholesterol intake can be a factor that leads to coronary artery build up.

You cannot get arterial plaque from ldl cholesterol any more than you can build a foundation for a house with water. Without the lime and cement, you simply do not get the hardened concrete.

"When LDL cholesterol is elevated, it and other substances build up in the walls of the arteries and form a plaque (atherosclerosis)" That's from a previous post

This is critical because preventing this process from taking place is possible, even with a poor lipid profile (high LDL). If this weren't true then people with great lipid profiles shouldn't be getting CV disease -- but they are.

Well there are other factors involved-family history of CV disease, major expression of VCAM-1, no cardio exercise

I won't repeat the points I made in my previous posts in this thread, however, I will say that plaque does not form over night, nor in a few months from having high levels of LDL from taking AAS or Arimidex. Again, you need to have all of the components in place for the plaque formation process to take place. If you're young, healthy, living a clean life-style including diet, exercise and critical supplements, you have NOTHING to fear from a high LDL reading. You are not going to die of a heart attack in the coming months. C-reactive protein is a test you can get to determine your risk for having a heart attack and which involves the inflammation conditions in your arteries. I already talked about supp's to take to minimize this risk.

I pretty much agree on the above.

My point was that the studies were very alarming (re: low estrogen and it accelerates expression of that VCAM-1). So people may want to avoid anastrozole and letrozole unless they are on high dose test cycles. These anti-e's are becoming common and people need to know that they have side effects which could be detrimental to their health. People are talking about doing l-dex only cycles and I want to point out that that might not be a good idea. I really repect all your good posts 40 so I'm not going to be a dick and sorry if I came off that way. We are entitled to disagree...
FHG

 

[40butpumpin]

Bro, if I'm disrespecting you, I apologize. That was not my intention. My intention was only to put in perspective exactly what we're talking about. I hate seeing people walking around scared shitless with only worry and prescription drugs as their recourse. I've personally known many individuals chained to a host of prescription drugs, needlessly, for their entire lives. And this because there is such a lopsided representation of the facts about disease and prevention of the same. Mainstream med is all about reaction and not about prevention, and I don't think this is by accident.

"When LDL cholesterol is elevated, it and other substances build up in the walls of the arteries and form a plaque (atherosclerosis)"

This is just the type of statement that bugs me. What causes it to start to "build up"? What "other substances" are necessary for plaque to be created? Are all of the other substances necessary for the plaque to start to build-up? What ratios of other substances are necessary for plaque build-up? Can this process be prevented?

There is currently no one in the world that knows the answers to these questions. If they tell you they know, they are lying. The above quote is an attempt at describing a complex process that again, is yet to be fully understood by anyone. High LDL is an indicator because it is known to be high individuals with cv disease. But does that mean that you are going to get cv disease only because you have a high ldl? There is currently no proof of this. Sure, if other "risks" are there, you most probably will. But my comments are directed at individuals that live a lifestyle that is all about health: exercise, diet, supplements, etc. The other risk factors are simply not there.

I was avoiding commenting on the medical paper because I feel it was relatively insignificant, considering everything I've already stated. I mean how does taking arimidex 16 weeks per year compare to smoking, or a sedentary lifestyle, or heavy saturated fat consumption, or working around heavy metals, etc.? I mean it's really a reach to say that this is a major concern IMO. No, I don't agree with a cycle of only arimidex or liquidex but not for reasons of getting cv disease. I do appreciate you're brining this to light, it's very interesting but I personally take such papers with the proverbial grain of salt. Tomorrow they'll surely change their minds to disagree with these findings.

I'm sorry if I've come off as insulting, I guess I don't worry enough about how I sound when I open my mouth. I really am sorry if you've felt anything negative from this, I don't disrespect you and in fact do have respect for you. I've enjoyed reading your posts and always know that your input will be well worth hearing. It's the whole medical industry that I'm frustrated with, I seriously question thier motives anymore.

Take care bro.

 

[fhg43]

Bro, if I'm disrespecting you, I apologize. That was not my intention. My intention was only to put in perspective exactly what we're talking about. I hate seeing people walking around scared shitless with only worry and prescription drugs as their recourse. I've personally known many individuals chained to a host of prescription drugs, needlessly, for their entire lives. And this because there is such a lopsided representation of the facts about disease and prevention of the same. Mainstream med is all about reaction and not about prevention, and I don't think this is by accident.

Agreed 100%!!!!

"When LDL cholesterol is elevated, it and other substances build up in the walls of the arteries and form a plaque (atherosclerosis)"

This is just the type of statement that bugs me. What causes it to start to "build up"? What "other substances" are necessary for plaque to be created? Are all of the other substances necessary for the plaque to start to build-up? What ratios of other substances are necessary for plaque build-up? Can this process be prevented?

There is currently no one in the world that knows the answers to these questions. If they tell you they know, they are lying. The above quote is an attempt at describing a complex process that again, is yet to be fully understood by anyone. High LDL is an indicator because it is known to be high individuals with cv disease. But does that mean that you are going to get cv disease only because you have a high ldl? There is currently no proof of this. Sure, if other "risks" are there, you most probably will. But my comments are directed at individuals that live a lifestyle that is all about health: exercise, diet, supplements, etc. The other risk factors are simply not there.

I was avoiding commenting on the medical paper because I feel it was relatively insignificant, considering everything I've already stated. I mean how does taking arimidex 16 weeks per year compare to smoking, or a sedentary lifestyle, or heavy saturated fat consumption, or working around heavy metals, etc.? I mean it's really a reach to say that this is a major concern IMO. No, I don't agree with a cycle of only arimidex or liquidex but not for reasons of getting cv disease. I do appreciate you're brining this to light, it's very interesting but I personally take such papers with the proverbial grain of salt. Tomorrow they'll surely change their minds to disagree with these findings.

Agreed 'dex is not as bad as really shitty diet/lifestyle-but we as users of the drug should be aware of the sides

I'm sorry if I've come off as insulting, I guess I don't worry enough about how I sound when I open my mouth. I really am sorry if you've felt anything negative from this, I don't disrespect you and in fact do have respect for you. I've enjoyed reading your posts and always know that your input will be well worth hearing. It's the whole medical industry that I'm frustrated with, I seriously question thier motives anymore.

Take care bro.

Props to 40

It's all good. I see your point of view and understand it. I usually take these internet exchanges lightly so I didn't get too fired up. We were just having some 'communication problems.'

FHG

 

[40butpumpin]

Thanks man, and the communication problem I also was frustrated by and feel completely responsible for. It's not the first time, believe me. But you're right, it is indeed all good. That's the beauty of this forum, so many minds, so many good bro's, I really feel privilaged. Thanks so much for discussing this with me, bro!

All the best!
40

 

[jboldman]

I am not sure I get your point here? Nolvadex binds to the er but doen NOT act as an antagonist at all er's , it is a serm and as such blocks the action of E in breast tissue but acts as an agonist for bone, heart., brain, and lipid profiles. That's a good thing compared to the effects of arimidex. Of the two, i would have to cast my vote for nolvadex. (actually i cast my vote for no anti-e's unless you have a known sensitivity for gyno, just have nolvadex on hand in case you need it. There is a lot of money being made on arimidex that could be spent on test! )

I think you are using the wrong comparison. This study is done with Nolva. Nolva, as you stated, blocks the E from the receptor and arimidex merely inhibits the aromatese from making too much estrogen. Taking Nolva will result in less available estrogen in men than arimidex does. Arimidex only reduces estrogen by 59% in men. The reason for using Arimidex instead of nolva is that it's a better method for reducing estrogen and it doesn't have the rebound effect nolva does when you stop. But Nolva stops more estrogen.

 

[Realgains]

I think nolva can help with the lipid profile for those with lipid problems and do not use steroids. There are studies to support this on the net. Yes it does seem to act as an estrogen at the liver and help with the lipid profile. There is one English study that proves Nolva helps men with poor lipid profiles.

BUT...........I tried taking 20 of nolav while on testosterone at 800mg per week and tren at 75 per day. I had my lipid profile checked after 4 weeks and it was VERY SHITTY to say the least. My doc HAD A COW ! My hdl to total cholesterol profile was terrible at 15 to 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I don't think Nolva will help while on androgens.

True there are other risk factors for the developement of heart disease but there is tons of proof stating that high ldl and very low hdl contributes very greatly to artherosclerosis.

I think taking nicain at 1500mg to 3 grams per day will do more for the lipid profile than nolvadex. That is my next experiment. I am going to try the non flush niacin.

note: If you take niacin be sure to follow yourself with liver enzyme blood work every few months as niacin can be somewhat hard on the liver.


oh ...estrogen inhibitors like arimidex do mess with your lipid profile. Bill Lellewyn has a study to support this. The study showed that those that were on a moderate cycle had slightly abnormal lipid profiles but those that did the same cycle and took estrogen inhibitors had a very shitty profile.

RG

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

whats this doing at the bottom??

good stuff here

 

[Racer-X99]

I think nolva can help with the lipid profile for those with lipid problems and do not use steroids. There are studies to support this on the net. Yes it does seem to act as an estrogen at the liver and help with the lipid profile. There is one English study that proves Nolva helps men with poor lipid profiles.

BUT...........I tried taking 20 of nolav while on testosterone at 800mg per week and tren at 75 per day. I had my lipid profile checked after 4 weeks and it was VERY SHITTY to say the least. My doc HAD A COW ! My hdl to total cholesterol profile was terrible at 15 to 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I don't think Nolva will help while on androgens.

True there are other risk factors for the developement of heart disease but there is tons of proof stating that high ldl and very low hdl contributes very greatly to artherosclerosis.

I think taking nicain at 1500mg to 3 grams per day will do more for the lipid profile than nolvadex. That is my next experiment. I am going to try the non flush niacin.

note: If you take niacin be sure to follow yourself with liver enzyme blood work every few months as niacin can be somewhat hard on the liver.


oh ...estrogen inhibitors like arimidex do mess with your lipid profile. Bill Lellewyn has a study to support this. The study showed that those that were on a moderate cycle had slightly abnormal lipid profiles but those that did the same cycle and took estrogen inhibitors had a very shitty profile.

RG

Excellent info again RG. Thanks!