A weird UFC rule and...a flaw in the Brazilian jiu-jitsu system?

[megamania500]

From my recollection, Royce Gracie fought regularly in the UFC until they started implementing the current rules. The Gracies didn't like the fact that there were time limits involved, since they're game sometimes involved having to wear down their opponents, which took time in some cases (over 16 mins for Royce to defeat Dan Severn). They stated their disappointment over the new time limits publicly, and said that they would only fight if time limits were lifted.
As for defeating a bjj fighter w/kicks while he shoots, Igor Zinoviev defeated Mario Sperry in the World Combat Championships in a manner similiar to this. While Sperry controlled the match, Zinoviev would manage to escape to his feet on occasion. After about his 5th escape to his feet, Zinoviev knee'd Sperry in the face while Sperry went to shoot in for his legs. Although Sperry was still able to execute the takedown, the knee opened up a cut on Sperry's face big enough to cause stoppage of the fight in Zinoviev's favor.
As for outlawing headbutts, before they did that...aww, those were the days! They banned headbutts, I believe, because they were just too brutal. They inflicted more damage that any punch or elbow could deliver. I highly recommend watching the first several UFCs to see the sheer brutality of it all (just 2 rules: no biting, no eye gouges). Besides that, everything goes. Keith Hackney defeated Joe Son by punching him in the nuts! Big John McCarthy would let the fights go on until one fighter was totally unconsious. Some may feel that it was TOO brutal, But that was UFC in the early days.

 

[Kane Fan]

You are not allowed to kick anyone with a knee on the ground, regardless of style. The fighters name is Gilbert Yvel not Eifel. You are also not allowed to elbow to the base of the skull or directly on the spine. These rules were implimented long after any Gracie fought in the ufc, in order to improve the appearance of mma in usa and to get it sanctioned by the state athletic boards. Also Gilbert Yvel is a notorious dirty fighter, he has been dq'd several times.

the originoal poster said you couldn't elbow the top of the head
I'm pretty sure in UFC you can tho right?

 

[Kane Fan]

Rgjujitsu,

That article had to be edited a bit. In it they spelled "allowed" as "aloud," so I'm not surprised they got Yvel's name wrong.

After reading what you wrote, being able to elbow a BJJ guy in the neck and head might seem to be a good countermeasure for a Muay Thai guy to use on a BJJ guy who just shot in for a takedown, or a shoot. I'm talking about a street confrontation and not a ring match.
As I mentioned earlier, that's what someone else seemed to think in another thread. It was his opinion that the BJJ guy would fall like a wet breadstick. That isn't an opinion that I can endorse with overwhelming vigor, as I've never tried it nor have I ever seen a scenario like that take place before.

Another option would be for the non-BBJ guy to use an eye gouge on the BJJ guy as the BJJ guy is executing the takedown. It would seem his face would be in the perfect position. The right thumb would go in his left eyesocket and the left thumb in the right eyesocket. The palm of each hand would be firmly attached to the side of his face. Again, and for the reasons mentioned earlier, this is all hypothetical and speculative. But it would seem like a BJJ guys face would be wide open for an eye gouge IMO.

it's hard to eyegouge someone while they are taking you down cus your hands insticintvly fly out towards the groudn to brace your fall (which is a bad ting to do btw)
but BJJ does have a huge disadvantage for streetfighting
you can't be 100% sure no one else on the street is goign to help the guy your grappling with, and it is difficult to tap a guy out while his friend is booting you in the back of the head...
that's a big failing of BJJ for the street

 

[Djimbe]

Rgjujitsu,

That article had to be edited a bit. In it they spelled "allowed" as "aloud," so I'm not surprised they got Yvel's name wrong.

After reading what you wrote, being able to elbow a BJJ guy in the neck and head might seem to be a good countermeasure for a Muay Thai guy to use on a BJJ guy who just shot in for a takedown, or a shoot. I'm talking about a street confrontation and not a ring match.
As I mentioned earlier, that's what someone else seemed to think in another thread. It was his opinion that the BJJ guy would fall like a wet breadstick. That isn't an opinion that I can endorse with overwhelming vigor, as I've never tried it nor have I ever seen a scenario like that take place before.

Another option would be for the non-BBJ guy to use an eye gouge on the BJJ guy as the BJJ guy is executing the takedown. It would seem his face would be in the perfect position. The right thumb would go in his left eyesocket and the left thumb in the right eyesocket. The palm of each hand would be firmly attached to the side of his face. Again, and for the reasons mentioned earlier, this is all hypothetical and speculative. But it would seem like a BJJ guys face would be wide open for an eye gouge IMO.

HEre is somethign you CAN try/Drill ...

Catch the guys face .

Not like a Guillotine , but in your hands , like a Football . When you catch it , spin his Chin tward the ceiling . It helps if you put all your Weight down on your Front leg and put your back one WAY back , like a 1/2 Sprawl ...

http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference/bow2.jpg
http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference/bow.jpg

A Pictures faster , but ignore what hes doing with his hands , obviously . He wont be able to Curl all your weight over your Front leg , and thatl give you time to deal with his Head .

 

[Area5150]

HEre is somethign you CAN try/Drill ...

Catch the guys face .

Not like a Guillotine , but in your hands , like a Football . When you catch it , spin his Chin tward the ceiling .

Are you by chance alluding to snapping the shooters neck?

And people, as hideous as this sounds, we're talking about steet survival here, and not a ring match.
Who knows, maybe you'll be in a strange city, say like Rio De Janeiro, a place where many American guys go for women and travel. Rio is a city that is notorious for high crime and violent confrontations. Rio or wherever, it doesn't matter, it's all about survival.

Anyway, I like the football analogy, and when you say spin the guys neck, I assume that would inflict a neck injury. It seems ideal because you could use the guys chin like a handle.(Well hell, I guess I just answered my own question, duh on me.) If there are any flaws in this scenario that you see here, point it out to us.

BJJ is all the rage, especially here in San Diego. Everyone and their mother is taking it or so it seems. And because of this I'm very interested in techniques for the average and as yet unschooled fighter to use on a BJJ shooter.

I once dated a girl who was schooled in TKA, an Indian from India. Some guy in New York City went hostile on her and there was a racist angle to it. I don't remember the whole story, but she said that when he was down on the ground she snapped his neck. Obviously, a jury would most likely would have condoned her actions. (I never asked her about what happened afterward. If I remember right, she told me she actually went to the hospital afterwards to see him, I think.)

The technique your showed and explained to us seems Krav Maga-like. Thanks for the pics. I tried to give you karma but I was blocked.

 

[Djimbe]

Actually , unbless theres something REALLY wrong , or youre doing it top a child or something it may HURT but it shouldnt Damage the neck particularly ...

Its the way a "Cowboy" takes down a Steer if he wants to . you break the Archetechture of the Spine , and Where The Head Goes The Body Will Follow . Spin a guys chin so its Pointing at the ceiling , and you can pretty much do what you want with him if youre standing over his head .

The technique your showed and explained to us seems Krav Maga-like. Thanks for the pics. I tried to give you karma but I was blocked.

Actually , its from Tai Chi . It even comes with a Funny-Sounding name ('Embrace Balloon' , or 'Hold The Ball')
Shown at 0:24 in this clip :
http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/tj_day_03.wmv


No , its not a good Clip , but it shows the General Idea .

And BRR hates this guy , so its KIND of fun when hes Right .

 

[Judo Tom]

i like that technique.

do you practice that? im wondering what would happen if you were a bit late or a bit off in the technique? can you still 'reverse' him onto his back? can you pull guard easily? can you stop him from picking you up? in practice how do you follow it up?

thanks

 

[Djimbe]

i like that technique.

do you practice that ?

Yeah . Its pretty Standard Taiji/Baguazhang Application .

im wondering what would happen if you were a bit late or a bit off in the technique?

There are a LOT of Options from there ...

can you still 'reverse' him onto his back?

Well , If youre Late you can go under an Armpit with a Hand and basicaly try turning hin the same way , but that takes a bit more Muscle , obviously . An Option is to Slam an Elbow into him First , then use the Recoil time to get at the Chin again . If yorue quick you can REALLY easily hit a Triangle or Armbar if you Control the Outside elbow & step over him with your Back Leg .


HOWEVER ...

Usually he ends up on his FACE , a "Snapdown" performed on the back of the neck from here is REALLY Effective , as are Downward Elbows , and its also really easy to get "Americana" like moves in on a guy from here , because of how he has to reach "Up" from his Perspective . Even with a FAST BJJ guy you will end up in Knee on Stomach or NorthSouth .

can you pull guard easily?

Thats a basic question of Mobility , and with your Leg way back , you can pretty much Rotate either way at a Whim , youre really OVER one Leg , so you COULD fall into Guard , but you would MORE LIKELY end up on TOP , because you would have control of the Head ,

can you stop him from picking you up?

The Position Itself stops him . Youre basically putting 100% of your Bodyweight over that one leg , and getting so Low over it that he cant get his Hips under your mass . Youre Basically reducing all your Bodyweight to Knee Height . So if he wants to Lift you , he has to be able to not only CURL YOUR MASS , but do so while youre Harrassing him !

The posture has all the Benefits of a Sprawl without the Drawback of your opponent controlling where any of your Mass is . The key is to keep the Posture LOW , as in , Thigh Paralell to the ground , and foot WAY back .

in practice how do you follow it up?

thanks

Again , Ill refer to the Video . at 0:35 he shows you what to do to get to a Position of Side Control ... You Bring your Knees Together , and Spin outward Trapping his arm between youyr Legs , while pulling on his head .

I also find that if you reach your Outside arm across his Back , and then underhook him you can combine it with the above for a shot at a Crucifix , if youre so Inclined .

But Honestly , Thats just me trying to think from a Grappler's prspective ...

I usually just slap him in the Throat and level Elbows at his Skull for as long as hes both stupid enough to think he can Curl me and Conscious . Either that or I pick the poor fool up by the waist then Powrbomb him on his head .

Size Hath Its Privelages .

 

[Judo Tom]

thanks for the great post!

i still have lots and lots to learn and practice when it comes to being a 'well rounded fighter'

im just getting into cross training now and i am really liking the feeling of learning new things.

 

[redbear]

OOS! bjj is an incomplete system. No disrespect it`s just is. Why? Bjj is a fad
now,the Gracies Eldest father was training under a japanese shi-hon. When the
Shi-hon died senior gracie brought back and practiced the grappling aspect of
JU-JITSU. JU-JITSU is the way of the SAMURI!!! Nuf said! But i will continue,Judo,
bjj, nin-jitsu,Akido and i think 2 other styles come from japanese JU-JITSU. So in
certain fases of combat a bjj will feel uncomfortable and try to bring it back to his
limited but extremely effective relm.OOS!