Thoughts on Volume, Frequency, Genetics

[casualbb]

Frequency: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this is the most important variable in a training system. Why? Well, the timeframe for muscular growth is hard-wired into people. More intense workouts don't elongate the time necessary to repair the muscle. This is because, at the cellular level, the same thing occurs every time there's damage. mRNA is activated, IGF-1 spills out, etc, etc. This response lasts, at best, 48 hours.

If you don't buy that, PM me because the response is technical.

It makes sense, then, that in order to be in a continuous state of growth, one should work muscles about every 48 hours.

Volume and Genetics: I'm generally a low volume advocate because, the truth is, you really only need one single set to cause growth. But, it's not quite so simple. With volume, it's a case of diminishing returns. That second set WILL CAUSE MORE GROWTH over that first set. But is it going to be twice as much growth? No. The third set? Even less additional growth. Those who are familiar with math will recognize this as a very steep asymptotic function.

So what's the appropriate volume? Here's where the "everybody's different" argument can be applied correctly. People mistakenly use that argument in a Mentzer sort of way to determine frequency. That's counterproductive because our growth is all based on the human norm timeframe. It's all about how much volume one can handle without compromising frequency. Because, more volume is better, but not if you need more time off. Recovery Genetics should determine training volume, not frequency.

So many programs are based around some magic combination of reps and sets. Like the 5x5 program. Why 5x5? No particular reason. My guess would be because they're both 5's, and people like symmety, as well as numbers that are related to 10, the base number system we use. Would 5x3 be any less effective? Probably not. In fact, you could probably work out more than once a week if you dropped the volume in such a way.

HST acknowledges that the volume isn't so set in stone. Nowhere on the site does it say "do x sets," it just says "Start with one of everything. If you still feel energetic, bump it to 2." Etc. I'd love to see more people try HST, because if you already do 5x5 or AnimalMass DFHT, it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to see where HST would be very effective.

-casual

 

[RusPA81]

Interesting post.

 

[T-Rage]

I agree with the volume vs. recovery time. I feel it would be better to hit a muscle twice a week with less intensity than once a week with insane intensity.

Also, it has been said that someone just starting out a lifting program can get away with simply one set for the first six months as that is enough to stimulate growth in a newbie.

I also agree that adding more volume decreases the ROI (return on investment). The extra little bit of muscle gained isn't worth waiting the extra days for complete recovery.

 

[Zander1983]

I also agree that adding more volume decreases the ROI (return on investment). The extra little bit of muscle gained isn't worth waiting the extra days for complete recovery.

Totally agree re: diminishing returns, but I do think that you need some level of volume...

I'm also partial to more frequent workouts than once a week. 2-3 days in between the same workout is my norm.

Why do people do workouts like 5x5 and DFHT? Strength gains, bigger weights etc... But I think one big reason would be that they are more enjoyable workouts.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Very good post. It makes alot of sense, honestly. Karma to you, Casualbb. I would sticky this, but that's not up to me.

 

[coolcolj]

I don't fully agree - you do need a certain amount of volume to create the right amount of protein degradation to trigger strutural changes. Nueral changes don't require as much volume though.

 

[sk*]

casualbb,

Can you please give a short answer to why you think it takes a muscle 48hours to recover?

Thanks.

-sk

 

[casualbb]

Check out my post on this thread and then let me know if you still have any questions:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232917&highlight=muscular+system

-casual

 

[sk*]

Check out my post on this thread and then let me know if you still have any questions:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232917&highlight=muscular+system

-casual

Thanks bro, but it still doesn't say where you got the number 36-48hours. I know Arnold says the same thing in his book, but based on what?

-sk

 

[endpoint]

and what are you basing all this on?
what uni do you go to? what are you studying?

5x5 is taken from many years of study. its not some numbers pulled out of the air. it is almost offensive the way you have said it.


how much do you get paid to advertise HST?

 

[sk*]

and what are you basing all this on?
what uni do you go to? what are you studying?

5x5 is taken from many years of study. its not some numbers pulled out of the air. it is almost offensive the way you have said it.


how much do you get paid to advertise HST?

I doubt he was saying it to be offensive. And the 5X5 is good, but I bet 5X4 or 5X6 will work just as well. The numbers were probably picked because it was appealing ...

-sk

 

[T-Rage]

One more thing...

In the book "Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning" from the National Strength and Conditioning Association they say this:

...schedule training sessions so there is at least one rest day or recovery day, but not more than three days, between sessions that stress the same muscle group.

That would suggest hitting a muscle group 2 - 3 times per week and it definetely goes against hitting each muscle group once per week as that would place 6 days between same muscle group workouts.

This book is written by doctors, professional football training coaches, etc. and is not geared toward bodybuilding. It is geared toward peformance.

In terms of strength, from personal experience, I feel that hitting a muscle group more than once a week builds strength more quickly than just hitting it once a week.

 

[endpoint]

In terms of strength, from personal experience, I feel that hitting a muscle group more than once a week builds strength more quickly than just hitting it once a week.

i squat 3 days a week......i feel my strongest when i do

 

[Mike_Rojas]

i squat 3 days a week......i feel my strongest when i do

Those big Russian and Eastern European weight lifters squat all the time, so I've read. Squatting M,W,F and Front Squatting T, Th is very common.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

My uncle, who was fairly big in his prime, told me he used to eat only 3-4 meals a day, roastbeef, tuna, chicken, steak - basically anything with protein. He wasn't a big eater, either. He wouldn't always eat that much each sitting. He trained each muscle group 2x a week Mon/Tues and Thurs/Fri. He's 6' 2" and had about 18.5" arms, squatted 550, benched 400 or so, and deadlifted 400 (my family is known for bad backs).

My point is, you can get anywhere through pretty much any method of weightlifting, so long as you're progressing. Increase in weight means an obvious increase in strength and will lead to an increase in size.

If it worked for him then, it should work for me now. And with two extra meals a day thrown in, with a slightly altered training routine - I don't think I'll have any problem getting there. Considering my grandpa was even bigger than my uncle - never was into bodybuilding either, just lifted and was in the merchant marine. Interesting.

 

[Debaser]

and what are you basing all this on?
what uni do you go to? what are you studying?

5x5 is taken from many years of study. its not some numbers pulled out of the air. it is almost offensive the way you have said it.


how much do you get paid to advertise HST?

1. I'm willing to bet that you're just saying that 5x5 came from "many years of study" just for the hell of it, and don't know either way.

2. How much does he get paid to advertise? And you thought *he* was offensive? I really shouldn't even dignify such an idiotic statement with a response.

 

[endpoint]

1. I'm willing to bet that you're just saying that 5x5 came from "many years of study" just for the hell of it, and don't know either way.

2. How much does he get paid to advertise? And you thought *he* was offensive? I really shouldn't even dignify such an idiotic statement with a response.

ever heard of Prilepin?

And yes i am trying to be offensive.....It may be idiotic, and i may be a jerk.


casualBB
the few things that remain true that change the sweeping statements you make: individualization & specificity.

they will have more of a deciding factor in training than genetics.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

There is no end all be all to any training method. Different strokes for different folks. I've looked over training records, and found I gained the best hitting each muscle once a week. I thought I made better gains on DC, but it was my increased eating that was helping that. Nutrition is key after all. One point that Mike Mentzer made, and it always made sense to me, if you could get the same results using a method such as HIT, as using volume workouts, why would you waste your time in some dungeon of a gym?

I've gone from 144.5lbs to a high of 260 in 3 1/2 years. Thats nothing to sneeze at, but hey thats just ME. As I stated earlier, different strokes for different folks.

ps. I see some flames starting in some earlier replies. Please let's not turn this thread into a flame fest. Nothing ever gets accomplished when that happens.

 

[casualbb]

I'm not trying to offend anybody...like the title says, just my thoughts based on what I know and some opinions. sk*...I also haven't forgotten about you, I'm digging around for the study that supports the 48 hour recovery.

individualization & specificity

Can you elaborate? I've heard those terms before in the context of some IART stuff but I'm still pretty clueless.

-casual

 

[Vortexx]

I make best progress training every muscle twice a week, 12-16 sets and 2 workouts (morning/evening) a day (one large muscle / one smaller). Due to work etc. I am not always in the position of working out twice a day , but if you can, it guarantees to keep your workouts within the 45-60 minutes timeframe, while still hitting all the muscles twice a week.

 

[endpoint]

I'm not trying to offend anybody...like the title says, just my thoughts based on what I know and some opinions. sk*...I also haven't forgotten about you, I'm digging around for the study that supports the 48 hour recovery.



Can you elaborate? I've heard those terms before in the context of some IART stuff but I'm still pretty clueless.

-casual

my problem was that you are stating these things like they are facts.....but i am willing to move on.

individualization: you are training a person. A man or woman who has a certain amount of training experience (none-->alot). this person has good qualitys, bad qualitys, strengths weakness, different body type, different muscle fibre make up, different goals.......the list goes on.
any weight training program will have to be modified to suit this indivdual.......not some run of the mill cut and paste routine from muscle mag. not every one will adapt the same.....so their training will have to suit that. Some people can handle higher volume......from, genetics, drugs+restoration meassures, or adaptation

specificity: not every one has the same goals. When you are talking about sports this becomes more obvious. you have to taylor rep ranges, exercises, sets, tempos etc to fit in with the sport.....so that the program you give them will increase thier performance in the desired sport.
Now with the average joe off the street.
There is no way in hell i (myself) would do HST. I will be competing in a weight class the least amount of weight i gain the better (unless it builds my strength equally which wont happen on HST i will need a program for my "sport").
But take a person who wants to get "big" then you would prescribe something like HST.


so when you are giving these general rules you have to take so many things into considerartion. The most important being the indivdual and the goals.

both these topics will effect your training. and your training of others.

 

[casualbb]

lol...fair enough

Disclaimer: The above posts assume the user's goal is maximum hypertrophy, not endurance or neural strength.

-casual

 

[casualbb]

Here we go, Bryan (HST founder) helped me locate the appropriate studies.

my problem was that you are stating these things like they are facts

Here's why:

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.
Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.

abstract quote:

It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS [muscle protein synthesis] increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.

And another...
Phillips, S. M., K. D. Tipton, A. Aarsland, S. E. Wolf, and R. R. Wolfe. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 273 (Endocrinol. Metab. 36): E99-E107, 1997

abstract quote:

We conclude that exercise resulted in an increase in muscle net protein balance that persisted for up to 48 h after the exercise bout...

Here's the rest of the abstracts...
first study
second study

Personal note: I mean this not to try and correct anybody. I'm just trying to present new information.

-casual

 

[sk*]

Here we go, Bryan (HST founder) helped me locate the appropriate studies.



Here's why:

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.
Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.

abstract quote:


And another...
Phillips, S. M., K. D. Tipton, A. Aarsland, S. E. Wolf, and R. R. Wolfe. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 273 (Endocrinol. Metab. 36): E99-E107, 1997

abstract quote:


Here's the rest of the abstracts...
first study
second study

Personal note: I mean this not to try and correct anybody. I'm just trying to present new information.

-casual

Those studies are board generalizations. In the first one they used biceps as an example but the bicep is the fastest healing bodypart. Can you really compare biceps to legs?

Also, the more poundage you start pushing the harder it becomes to recover. As DC pointed out earlier, your recovery rate only gets better by a little bit as you progress in weight but your weights go up by A LOT.

IMO, there need to be more studies done for a better conclusion. Best thing I would suggest is for everyone to find their recovery rate at their stage in their lifting carrier. Also steroids and some supplements will aid in recovery significantly.

I find that for myself, hitting a bodypart every 3days using DC's style of training works very good. I tried his routine with every 2days and my gains weren't as good.

-sk

 

[casualbb]

All I can say is that muscular and nervous systems recover at different rates. Muscular system at a more fixed one, as per the studies above. You're right about neural recovery though, that's a lot more variable.

But hey if doing what you're doing works, then do it more.

-casual

 

[endpoint]

Those studies are board generalizations. In the first one they used biceps as an example but the bicep is the fastest healing bodypart. Can you really compare biceps to legs?

Also, the more poundage you start pushing the harder it becomes to recover. As DC pointed out earlier, your recovery rate only gets better by a little bit as you progress in weight but your weights go up by A LOT.

IMO, there need to be more studies done for a better conclusion. Best thing I would suggest is for everyone to find their recovery rate at their stage in their lifting carrier. Also steroids and some supplements will aid in recovery significantly.

I find that for myself, hitting a bodypart every 3days using DC's style of training works very good. I tried his routine with every 2days and my gains weren't as good.

-sk

there are tonnes of studies out there.....most in books and research papers......not on the internet, or in bodybuilder books

 

[sk*]

there are tonnes of studies out there.....most in books and research papers......not on the internet, or in bodybuilder books

If you can direct me to books then I will go get them. I will love nothing more than to optimize my training and diet to the point of absolute efficiency.

-sk

 

[SteelWeaver]

The cool thing about threads like this, if they don't turn ito flame fests, is the amount of interesting info that is generated.

IMO the best thing to do is just learn as much as you can about physiology, etc., frame your training on some of the more proven generalisations, keep a log, then try this for a while, try that for a while, and try the other for a while Then you'll know what works for you, until adaptation sets in, then you try something else - that's why this sport is soooo cool - never-ending learning curve.

 

[Dirty Workout]

Great thread

 

[Vortexx]

Paul de Mayo said that before he became an allround bodybuilder he was a real curl-jockey, just doing 20 somewhat sets barbell curls and skull crushers at home every night... his arms grew to 18.5 inches from this. That should tell you something about muscle recovery...

However the keypoint is that he only trained arms at that time, so that he did not have to recover from grueling squats and deadlifts. Obviously Paul de Mayo no longer trains arms every day , now that he has become an allround bodybuilder, but as a rule of thumb we could assume , train a muscle as often as your CNS recovery allows you...

In order to maximize trainingfrequancy we must improve CNS recovery, or at least not doing things that are counterproductive to CNS recovery (such as lack of sleep)

Many pros have two or even three workout sessions a day in order to maximize trainingfrequency of a certain muscle. This approach allows for relative short workouts, wich in turn does no tax the CNS as much as having a marathon workouts.

However, training 3 times a day, how do you make living without bending over for Joe Weider or doing gay tricks?

|Maybe working as a bouncer you could have the time and the money to workout like that...

 

[T-Rage]

Another interesting thing regarding training frequency...

Let's look at calves and forearms. These muscles historically respond best to higher repetitions and more frequent training because these muscles are used so much (calves every time we take a step and forearms for just about every upper body movement). That being said which came first the chicken or the egg? What I mean by that is this...

Are the calves and forearms different than other body parts? Are they more dense and tuff becuase they will have to deal with alot of work or is it the fact that they deal with alot of work and therefore have no other choice but to get dense and tuff?

 

[Deak]

Frequency: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this is the most important variable in a training system. Why? Well, the timeframe for muscular growth is hard-wired into people. More intense workouts don't elongate the time necessary to repair the muscle. This is because, at the cellular level, the same thing occurs every time there's damage. mRNA is activated, IGF-1 spills out, etc, etc. This response lasts, at best, 48 hours.

If you don't buy that, PM me because the response is technical.

It makes sense, then, that in order to be in a continuous state of growth, one should work muscles about every 48 hours.

But if I am still very sore after the workout, should I still train that muscle group? Or you are saying to reduce the volume and intensity to train more often or what?

 

[sk*]

Paul de Mayo said that before he became an allround bodybuilder he was a real curl-jockey, just doing 20 somewhat sets barbell curls and skull crushers at home every night... his arms grew to 18.5 inches from this. That should tell you something about muscle recovery...

However the keypoint is that he only trained arms at that time, so that he did not have to recover from grueling squats and deadlifts. Obviously Paul de Mayo no longer trains arms every day , now that he has become an allround bodybuilder, but as a rule of thumb we could assume , train a muscle as often as your CNS recovery allows you...

In order to maximize trainingfrequancy we must improve CNS recovery, or at least not doing things that are counterproductive to CNS recovery (such as lack of sleep)

Many pros have two or even three workout sessions a day in order to maximize trainingfrequency of a certain muscle. This approach allows for relative short workouts, wich in turn does no tax the CNS as much as having a marathon workouts.

However, training 3 times a day, how do you make living without bending over for Joe Weider or doing gay tricks?

|Maybe working as a bouncer you could have the time and the money to workout like that...

The studies that were posted had the same problem, they only used one bodypart in the first and I forget the second one (yea I know already, lol).

Regarding the 2-3times working out thing, I actually do this. I like to keep my workouts under 30minutes and come to the gym twice. I use DC's training methods and after doing 2bodyparts in the morning i'll do 2more at night. I have a lot of free time on my hands, lol.

-sk

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Wow, great thread! This is something I have put a great deal of thought into over the last few months, and I'm really not in the mood to type 10 pages here, but I would like to point out one thing. The ability to generate enough intensity to stimilate maximum growth on a lower number of sets is a high individual thing. It is in part genetic, but also seems to be linked to neuromusclular effiency. Personally, I've grown very very rapidly doing 1-3 sets for a bodypart during a given workout. Then again, I'm one of those guys who can totally exhaust a muscle in one set. I can take an extremely heavy weight, fail on my 6th or 7th rep, have help doing a couple forced reps, and if I have put everything into it, 3-5 minutes later I am still completely unable to do a single rep with the same weight. So even on my multiple set workouts, I'm rapidly losing reps and droping the weight so that I can do more than one set. That makes me an ideal canidate for one-set-per-bodypart workouts. I'm probably not gaining any additional growth from the extra sets due to greatly reduced intensity. However I've seen guys who can fail on their 8th rep, and taking 2 minutes between sets, they can still get 7 reps with the same weight on set 4 or 5. Usually they seem to be incapable of handling weights I would consider to be moderately heavy for someone of their size. Weither this is a result of low neuromuscular effciency, a high predominance of slow twitch fibers or a combination, these individuals clearly are in need of a higher training volume in order to heavily tax their muscles. While I certainly feel any increase in volume is going to increase recovery time, this type of trainee is not capable of generating a great deal of intensity during a couple of sets, so they are not taxing their recovery ability that heavily with each set, even though they train to failure. However, they would probably not grow without this volume. Though just like those of us on the other extremely, they will reach a point of diminished returns from each set once they do fatigue the muscles and intensity begins to drop. This obseravation has led me to believe that proper training volume is going to vary from person to person, but not because "everyone is different" but for specific reasons that, given time, we will hopefully uncover with scientific research. Ok, that is enough of my ranting for now...

 

[DrBones]

Very interesting post...
Probably the freshest material on here in a while
Good read..

 

[JollyRogers]

Rest when you need rest, eat when you want to eat, if your fresh hit the gym.

best advice right here

 

[SeymourCuts]

Even with 3 full sets per exercise, HST doesn't work for everyone though. Almost without fail, everytime someone comes out and says "this is THE way," some get great results off of it while some get shit. Some find they get the best results from taking a full week off between muscle groups while others do great on six-days-twice-a-day programs. I have found over time that 4-5 days rest of muscle groups is ideal for me. The only way to really understand your body is through trial and error of different styles of training over time keeping records.

 

[sk*]

Rest when you need rest, eat when you want to eat, if your fresh hit the gym.

best advice right here

Nah bro, that's an advice to plateau ... sadly. Maybe it works in your first year of training but if you want some serious size you need to eat when you aren't hungry and when you are hungry. You should also sleep at least 8 hours a day.

-sk

 

[casualbb]

Are the calves and forearms different than other body parts? Are they more dense and tuff becuase they will have to deal with alot of work or is it the fact that they deal with alot of work and therefore have no other choice but to get dense and tuff?

Calves and forearms are the same type of tissue. My guess would be as to why people consider them as different though... they're probably really heavy on the slow-twitch, just given the nature of what they do. That would make neural recovery very fast and growth very slow. Also, if they grew very readily, we would all have enormous calves just from daily activity, even to the point that it would F--- up walking. It's almost a protectionary mechanism that they don't grow well.

But if I am still very sore after the workout, should I still train that muscle group?

Soreness can be trained through with zero risk. In fact I think you'll find it'll go away pretty much immediately after doing a set.

Or you are saying to reduce the volume and intensity to train more often or what?

That's what I'd advise. I do think that's the fastest and easiest way to grow, based on my own personal experience and research.

-casual

 

[Debaser]

Re: Re: Thoughts on Volume, Frequency, Genetics

Even with 3 full sets per exercise, HST doesn't work for everyone though. Almost without fail, everytime someone comes out and says "this is THE way," some get great results off of it while some get shit. Some find they get the best results from taking a full week off between muscle groups while others do great on six-days-twice-a-day programs. I have found over time that 4-5 days rest of muscle groups is ideal for me. The only way to really understand your body is through trial and error of different styles of training over time keeping records.

You're just generalizing that HST doesn't work for everyone. Considering that it is scientifically based on how muscles actually respond to training and grow, it'll essentially work if you have muscles.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Casual, I could use your help with something. From some of the posts I read by you, and by Brian, Blade, etc on the HST board, I think I am a bit confused. Basically what I am trying to understand, is that you can train something like chest, and back on monday with low volume of course, but then you could train something like shoulders, and arms the following day, with little to no affect to the bodyparts worked the previous day? Or even work the same body part again?

I read on the HST board that you can even work each body part 6 times a week, but thats getting risky. I am curious to know more about this. I am not intending on working my body each part 6 times a week mind you, but I would like to learn more. You hear so many things about not working something like shoulders the day after chest, or not more than one body part a week. I would like some clarity on this, and you seem like the man to turn to. Any help would be great. Thank you so much.


ps. I had some problems with my pms, and just saw one, about you helping me set up my HST routine. I will get back to that asap. Sorry about the delay

 

[casualbb]

Sure, I'll address everyday training.

I'm gonna made an "outrageous" claim: Recovery is overrated. The conventional one-factor bodybuilding theory (supercompensation) says that when a muscle is worked, it needs to recovery fully before it grows. This has been shown to be incorrect through a multitude of studes, but I'll focus on a study done on rats because it can illustrate the point in an intuitive sort of way.

I don't have the abstract so I'll paraphrase it:
Essentially the rats had their gastrocnemius cut, to place the standing load entirely on the soleus. By traditional bodybulding theory, the soleus should not grow at all because there's no "recovery" time; the load is born for hours on end. Yet within weeks the soleus explodes in size and weight.

Now some dudes might be thinking "I've trained high frequency in the past and burned out, you NEED to recover!" The thing is, you don't need to "recover," as further loading doesn't exacerbate the muscle repair process. But, training frequently with high volume and ESPECIALLY to failure will bring about systemic overtraining and prevent gains. Training with high frequency is the key to fast gains, but it can be a delicate balancing act. Almost inevitably low volume is required, as well as a willingness to stop failure training.

I personally find that fatigue accumulates over the course of a rep range cycle and goes away when I hit the lighter weights in a new minicycle. So overtraining isn't quite so absolute as people make it out to be. You don't just wake up one day in an overtrained state; one can feel it coming on and adjust volume accordingly.

-casual

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Thank you, that is just what I was looking for! I find myself more and more interested in these things each day.

Where are you located by the way? You are one of the people on here, I would like to train with. I always seem to learn something new from your posts each day. Enough, that I am putting faith into HST. With DC, I was pushing it, but I do believe it was going to failure all the time, going to the edge each session. I have a feeling this is going to be a great experience for me.

 

[collegiateLifter]

Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on Volume, Frequency, Genetics

You're just generalizing that HST doesn't work for everyone. Considering that it is scientifically based on how muscles actually respond to training and grow, it'll essentially work if you have muscles.

this too is a generalization.

 

[endpoint]

rats as in the animals? and not humans?

 

[casualbb]

Correct. One might have a tough time finding volunteers for a human version of that

-casual

 

[Deak]

Casual, can you please tell us how you train(number of sets, reps, how many times a week, how many reps till failure do you stop etc)? And how much progress did you made? Am I the only one who is interested on how casual trains?
Tkanks.

 

[casualbb]

I really don't deviate much from the standard HST routine. I do the normal rep ranges of 15, 10, and 5. Exercise selection, all for one set:

Squats
SLDL
Calf Raise
Weighted Chest Dips
Weighted Pullups
Incline DB Press
DB Row (switching to BB row for next cycle)
DB Shrug (switching to BB shrug)
Upright Rows (switching to lateral raises...after reading up on this exercise I've decided I don't like the rotator cuff danger)
Standing DB Bicep Curl
Rear Delt Isolation

So that's 11 exercises, performed 3.5 times/week (every other day, however it works out). I may take two days off instead of one depending on my schedule.

Progress?
In the past 8 months of training this way I've added 20 lbs of bodymass, with probably around 15 of it being lean. For 2 of those months, I basically dicked around with eating and made zero progress. I find that my gains really depend on how willing I am to stuff myself consistently (I have trouble with it! ) I've traditionally been a hardgainer so I'm pretty pleased.

-casual

 

[endpoint]

Correct. One might have a tough time finding volunteers for a human version of that

-casual

Im not smart with these types of things.......but dont animals (well rodents) have different adaptive responses than humans?

 

[casualbb]

Im not smart with these types of things.......but dont animals (well rodents) have different adaptive responses than humans?

It depends. In the case of muscles they're pretty much the same. Humans and rats both evolved from some shrew-like thing millions of years ago.

-casual

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Right now I hate Casual, and this HST, because tonight I felt as if I was going to cover the entire gym in vomit. It was SICK. Maybe it's because I don't do 15 reps on anything usually (except for calfs). I felt like death. I have never felt so tired in my entire life.

So far I've done the hot/cold shower thing that I read on the HST site. I only did one set per exercise. I thought perhaps I could get 2 on some of the big lifts, forget that, just forget it. I am also getting rid of lying leg curls, and regular deadlifts. I am replacing them both with straight leg deads. Less work.

Anyone who think this program is a walk in the park hasn't tried it. I'm really glad skipping the 15's for the next cycles is optional. I will not be doing them unless by some chance I feel injury coming on. I feel much better doing 5-10 reps on exercises. Anymore and it feels more like cardio work, and leaves me on the floor dead. Showed me just how out of shape I am!

Also, on some exercises I couldn't get to 15 reps. The lactic acid was just too much. It wasn't the weight was too heavy, it felt light, but I could feel the burn building up, I just couldn't go on. That only happened with two exercises. Lowering the weight (which I believe Brian doesn't recommend just for the sake of getting the rep range during that set) wouldn't have fixed it. So, I was a bit worried about that.

All in all it's looking good. I've basically trained for purely strength in the past. 3-6 reps, lot's of deadlifts, dips, squat, etc. This feels different, and training in such low reps for so long really made the 15's hard. I'm counting down the days that the 15's go away. I hope all goes well.

 

[Lord_Suston]

If I remeber right rats can experience hyperplasia where most humans cannot past a certain age. Much growth is cause because of this.

But on CNS adaption and mucle recovery I do believe there were a few studies showin that people who train after 72 hours with a different type of excercises could produce force equivalent of around 95%. This could help in the growth process. But going to another all out workout. I personally think a few speed sets recruiting the previous worked fiber would be suffcient

 

[endpoint]

If I remeber right rats can experience hyperplasia where most humans cannot past a certain age. Much growth is cause because of this.

im sure there are many differences between rats and humans.......i dont buy these rat studies.

casual BB......im not trying to argue with you, damn i squat three times a week, pull 3 times a week, press 3 times a week.........and im growing and getting stronger and faster

 

[sk*]

im sure there are many differences between rats and humans.......i dont buy these rat studies.

You don't realy have to buy it, but there are many similarities between rats and humans. Ever notice how most studies are first done on rats?

-sk

 

[casualbb]

I admit, I don't remember what the exact differences are between rat and human muscle. Suston's right about the hyperplasia. There's gotta be some reason they keep using rats though.

to C3bodybuilding: suck it up, it's good for you.

-casual

 

[nanotitan]

I read someone on the thread (I forget who) mention he tried increasing the frequency of his DC training from every 3 days to every 2 days and felt burn out. I think this was probably due to the fact that DC training requires that you go to failure on each particular exercise. You were probably just exceeding you CNS's ability to recover not your muscles'.

I think one has to look at things a little differently when doing HST or any other comparatively high frequency approach. One must not think in terms of protein degradation and muscle recovery but rather concentrate on muscle loading and CNS recovery.

I always like to refer to Paul Anderson when talking about frequency. The guy squatted 800 for 10 reps, no wraps, no suit AND no juice. He trained squats every other day very heavy for low reps. Rest between sets was half an hour to keep fatigue low. One probably doesn't have to go to this extent but it helps put things into perspective as to what is it that makes a person grow.

 

[SeymourCuts]

Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on Volume, Frequency, Genetics

You're just generalizing that HST doesn't work for everyone. Considering that it is scientifically based on how muscles actually respond to training and grow, it'll essentially work if you have muscles.

Almost every popularized routine is "scientifically based," but no routine takes into account all pertinent aspects of scientific reality as they are not known yet. My earlier statement was based on the fact that in addition to the glowing reports on HST I've read, I have read various anecdotal accounts of people getting lackluster results and going on to get better results from other types of routines after trying it for one or two cycles. And I could list off one popular routine/style after another that has given mixed results/reviews. So then it's still about taking into consideration known scientific evidence and then coupling that broader evidence with what's known about your own individual body.