Some more questions on BACK training

[SteelWeaver]

Making wonderful strides with back training - getting some nice smooth moves with deep contractions and a big pump.

Just a few things though:

Do you always touch the bar to the floor when doing deadlifts? Should one? Is it necessary? There's always more tendency to bounce the weight off the floor when doing the reset thing, but on the other hand, form breakdown comes slower when touching at the bottom. Opinions?

Another one: on barbell rows - what sort of back to hip angle is optimal? I know Dorian Yates goes for a more upright posture, at about 45 degrees. Others say bend almost to 90. I know there's more stress on the lower back the bigger the angle, but what about the muscles targeted?

And one more: how far down do you bend on GM's? Down to 45 degrees? 90? Vary it?

 

[makedah]

I always set the bar down between DL reps. As I understand it, the point of the DL is to move the bar from a still (dead) position.

If I do barbell rows, I do Yates rows (45 degree bend). I can't speak for folks in general, but I have a long history of low back pain (hurt myself when I was 11), and I can't do bent-over rows. I did them about a month ago and had sharp pains in my low back for days afterward.

I haven't read about the muscles worked (the yates row isn't in exrx, either!), but yates row feels different, definitely. It feels like less lats and more rhomboids.

 

[vinylgroover]

I don't set the bar down on deadlifts.

On rows, my body is almost parallel to the floor. It means i use less weight, but it also means my mid back gets worked more than my lats/traps which is what i'm looking for with the movement.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Ah hah! OK, so smaller angle = more lat involvement. Cool.

Do you work off a platform for DL's, or off the floor? How far down do you lower the bar?

Do you EVER do cycles where you touch the floor with the weights?

OH! Makedah - smaller angle = less lat, more rhomboid in your case ...

 

[vinylgroover]

Yates actually performed his rows at about 70 degrees (ie his body was more upright). That places less stress on the lower back and places the lats in a much stronger mechanical position, hence the ability to use more weight.

Steelweaver it's more important to use textbook form than it is to get the angle exacty right to the milimeter on rows. As long as you've got some angle in there to work with, just concentrate on squeezing and getting a peak contraction in your mid back.

Grip can also have an influence. A narrower grip will involve the lats more......a wider grip will place primary stress on the rhomboids. Similarly, an underhand grip will stimulate the lats more than an overhand grip.

For deadlifts, i do them off a platform. The bar comes down to just below shin height, which would probaby be the equivalent of the plates touching the floor if i were doing them off the floor.

 

[makedah]

Vinyl - you're right about that 75 degrees. (I was measuring in relation to standing erect, not in relation to the floor. This is how I do the Yates row (It's called Robo Row here). My grip is fairly wide, as my stance is fairly wide. I'll see what it feels like with a narrower (shoulder width) stance.


http://www.stumptuous.com/badrow.html

 

[THeMaCHinE]

I always touch the plates to the floor on full-range deads to get the full range of motion; sometimes I'll even use smaller plates to increase the range of motion. It doesn't make me bounce because I treat each rep separately. I lift on a deadlift platform.

I also do a lot of pin pulls (partial DLs from knee level in the rack). This may be a good option for you if you don't like full range DLs. (though there is less leg involvement.)

On rows, I use a variety of angles, depending on the session. If I'm going to do rows with an almost parallel angle, I'll often straddle a bench face down and use the bench to stabilize. This will make your lats scream. The heavier I get, the more upright I go. I have also found that reverse grip below the navel and pronated grip rowed above the navel seem to work well for me. Elbows point as directly back as possible at all times for maximum lat recruitment.

 

[SteelWeaver]

I'm just trying different ideas right now (with textbook form vg developing a nice clear mind-muscle connection) - and am interested in what other folks are doing, and their results. Guess I'll try all different angles and feel what I can feel.

What's the difference between touching the floor on DL's between reps, and not touching the floor? Just uninterrupted stimulus on the muscles?

THeMaCHinE - when you say lifting on a platform - uh - what kind of platform? The platform I have in mind is the type that allows the weights to actually go lower than floor level than if one were actually doing it on the floor - I think like what vinylgroover described.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

I'm just trying different ideas right now (with textbook form vg developing a nice clear mind-muscle connection) - and am interested in what other folks are doing, and their results. Guess I'll try all different angles and feel what I can feel.

What's the difference between touching the floor on DL's between reps, and not touching the floor? Just uninterrupted stimulus on the muscles?

THeMaCHinE - when you say lifting on a platform - uh - what kind of platform? The platform I have in mind is the type that allows the weights to actually go lower than floor level than if one were actually doing it on the floor - I think like what vinylgroover described.

Difference between touching and not touching is complete range of motion vs. incomplete (although you may be coming so close to the floor that the difference is negligible).

I also believe it fires the muscles a different way as an imperceptible pause allows you to "reload" and fire differently than a continuous set; I think this is more important the heavier you go for mind-mucle.

A deadlift platform is a wood platform with rubberized ends. It's basically the same as lifting from the floor. The type of platform you're referring to is what I think of for doing stiff-legged deads.

 

[SteelWeaver]

A deadlift platform is a wood platform with rubberized ends. It's basically the same as lifting from the floor. The type of platform you're referring to is what I think of for doing stiff-legged deads.

Oooohhh, yes, I see. I've been lifting straight off the floor til now. I imagine there's less bounce that way than with a rubberised platform. But I'm thinking of trying the "SLDL" platform without stopping at the bottom. It's too hard to judge the distance otherwise, and I end up hitting the floor anyway.

I guess one's working more on starting strength when stopping at the bottom, but more TUT when not stopping.

About what percentage of DL sets do you spend on partials? I've never done them - I like the full-range move, but I want to try things out. Do you use low reps on these? Throw in a couple of sets after full deads?

 

[THeMaCHinE]

About what percentage of DL sets do you spend on partials? I've never done them - I like the full-range move, but I want to try things out. Do you use low reps on these? Throw in a couple of sets after full deads?

I don't think I could train deadlift on a SLDL platform without sacrificing weight on the lift. Would you plan on re-racking the weight at failure?

I LOVE pin pulls! I don't do them on the same day (or week) that I deadlift. It's more of a pure back exercise, so I will do them for primary back day in a week that I don't do deadlifts (and do perform squats).

I do pin pulls more than I do deads from the floor anymore. The overload is different and you can go pretty darn heavy on them. It also allows me to squat in the same week and maintain max intensity on both lifts.

I don't train DL or pin pulls every week.

I do keep the reps low, generally around sets of 6, with the occasional double or triple if I'm feeling spry.

Set the power rack with the pins about knee level; you want the bar to make contact just above the knee. Set the feet about shoulder width (or whatever is comfortable), start with the bar against your legs, shoulders behind the bar and lever the bar up, maintaing contact with the thighs on both the positive and negative. I use an over-under grip and strap on sets above 500.

You will be able to go quite a bit heavier (fun!) than DLs when you get used to them. Great way to fry the upper body (back especially) and a little bit of legs, while leaving you fresh enough to toast legs later/earlier in the week.

I'll usually do 3 warmups and 4 to 5 work sets on this lift.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Yes, I expect to have to bring the weight down a bit, but I'm thinking the increased TUT will give me a different stimulus for a change, and will allow me to work on form without my ego getting in the way. I want perfect form on everything. Although I've always been pretty anal about it, I've been finding out lately with my trainer why I've always had (small) problems with certain moves. Perfect form is so beautiful to watch - powerful and fluid - and so rare in most gyms. When I target a muscle, I want to feel THAT muscle.

Umm, dunno how I'm gonna rack it - hadn't thought of that ...

Thanks for the tips on pin pulls. Yes, I'm regularly too sore for deads in a heavy squat week, or the other way round - I try to alternate heavy and light weeks. But my lower back is still a weak point anyway.

 

[2Shy]

I decided to set the bar down on each rep (deads) and lift every one like my first one. It was definitely different feeling, though I lack the experience to express exactly how. Obviously you must be working your muscles differently if you lift every lift like the first, right? Glutes more?

P.S. Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays everyone

~Shy (thinking of changing my handle to "Sponge" since I soak up so much good info on this board!)

 

[Nonerz]

Some people think Romanian Deadlifts are deadlifts. They are not. RDL's are far riskier, IMHO. A "deadlift" comes off the floor. Anything else is a variation.

Spatts, why are they are far riskier?

 

[THeMaCHinE]

I think RDLs have their place, as long as you can control them. (unless I'm doing light sets) I do prefer them off the floor, and with a slight bend at the knee, so as not to overstretch the body and place undue stress on the knees. They hit very hard on the low back, hams and glutes. I won't go so far as to use the rounded back version on lighter sets though...

I also use negatives on deads as it leads to more overall growth.



SW: lol about the re-rack -- let me know what you figure out

 

[SteelWeaver]

Aaaaah, so THAT'S why you just dropped the weight in that video I asked you about, spatts. I see ...

Mmm, well, I like negatives And I'd probably break something in the gym if I just dumped it.

Anyway, I must be doing something right - did sumo deads last night - my max several months ago, the last time I wasn't dieting, was 90kg for about 5 reps, touching between reps. Well, last night, I pulled 90kg for 7 smooth, clean reps, WITHOUT touching the floor. Lovely controlled form. Next goal, double bodyweight

THeMaCHinE: I guess re-racking would mean one would sacrifice one last possible rep. But on the other hand, that's usually the rep people get injured on, so maybe it's not such a bad thing ...

 

[fitmedic]

SLDL

I thought DL or SLDL were for hams? Have I been training the wrong body part on the wrong day all these years?

 

[Nonerz]

I could be wrong, but from what I've read here on the boards, SLDL hit the hams more than DL...which works more lower back.

Can anyone verify this?

 

[makedah]

PLUS: when you "set" the bar down each time, it makes a cool noise.

 

[fitmedic]

right on makedah!