Post-workout insulin spike bad when cutting?

[SteelWeaver]

I shouldn't go to the diet forum - I always find stuff there that disrupts my peaceful I've-got-it-all-worked-out-for-now state of mind.

Anyway - anyone have any thoughts on this? Do you use high GI or low GI carbs post w/o when cutting?

 

[Rémy!]

Post-workout insulin spikes are very usefull as they increase the absorbtion / uptake of other nutrients such as protein or creatine. It is not bad for cutting, as long as you take the high concentrations of sugars after workouts only.

Seing as your body after a workout is depleted of nutrients - this is a good time (and almost the only time) to take high-GI carbs such as dextrose/sucrose/fructose they won't get digested just uptaken into the blood stream fast, which will enable you to get more out of the protein from your post workout shake. Blending some more complex carbs (lower GI) is also not a bad idea - but most utilize the faster GI post workout.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks Rémy! That's just what I thought, but then I saw a bunch of people at the diet forum saying they either don't take carbs, or not high GI one's post w/o when cutting, so I got to wondering ...

 

[BigEasy]

Actually fructose is a poor choice of sugar to cause an insulin spike.

I'll post more on that later, but stick to dextrose for the insulin spike and DO add in some complex carbs as Rémy! recommends.

[Edited to remove stupid mistake)

 

[wilson6]

Remy,

Can you explain this statement?

'carbs such as dextrose/sucrose/fructose they won't get digested just uptaken into the blood stream fast"

W6

 

[diamonddiceclay]

when cutting-you don't need post w/o carbs-just eat a high protein meal

 

[Robboe]

Big easy, sucrose is a poor choice also. It is half glucose and half fructose.

Fructose needs to be processed in the liver into glucose and is not broken down into glucose in the gut like most carbs [or even the mouth.] Because of this, most of the glucose never quite reaches the blood stream and this is why fructose is said to replenish more liver glycogen than muscle glycogen. Also, this process takes a bit more time so an insulin spike never quite ensues. There's also the factor of fructose predominantly coming from fruit. Fruit has more fibre and this slows digestion down further. At the end of the day, frut and fructose are poor choices for post training.

I actually consume complex, low GI carbs post workout when cutting. The spike, albeit providing anabolic conditions also provides fat storing conditions. I prefer complex carbs with low GI for 'stable' insulin levels. This way i also don't feel tired or fatiqued when the spiked levels drop too. And since my post training meal is the last meal of the day with active carbs i want some sort of sustainance. of course it's totally up to you. As long as you're consuming less calories than you burn off you'll lose the weight.

 

[Robboe]

when cutting-you don't need post w/o carbs-just eat a high protein meal

That is an expensive way to replenish glycogen stores!

The protein will be converted into glucose via gluconeogenesis to replenish the glycogen stores. Maybe if you eat some fat along with it [like NHE style] then fair enough...


also, if it's a whey shake you consume after training, on it's own, will digest rather quickly and most will prolly be oxidised by the liver.

 

[Rémy!]

Remy,

Can you explain this statement?

'carbs such as dextrose/sucrose/fructose they won't get digested just uptaken into the blood stream fast"

W6

Monosaccharides (single sugar molecules) deliver energy to the body quickly as they do not need to be digested into smaller pieces before absorption takes place. Glucose and fructose are the two most common dietary monosaccharides. The linking of two monosaccharides results in a disaccharide, while long chains of sugar molecules are referred to as complex carbohydrates or polysaccharides.

Most dietary carbohydrates come from food molecules made up of the two monosaccharides sucrose (found in familiar table or cane sugar, apples, bananas, oranges) and lactose (milk sugar found in dairy products), and from complex carbohydrates or starches which are primarily supplied by grains. Before they can be absorbed from the intestinal tract, all disaccharides and complex carbohydrates must first be digested and converted back to a monosaccharide or single sugar form.

I was using the (dextrose/sucrose/fructose) statement to show examples of high GI sugars, not the best sources. I don't reccomend fructose or sucrose for the athlete.

Fructose does not need insulin for its transport into the cell and is preferentially extracted from the blood stream by the liver (versus the muscle cell). (Int J Sport Nutr 1997 Jun;7(2):117-27) looked at the metabolism of glucose versus fructose eaten as a preexercise meal from 180 to 90 min before exercise in 6 subjects. it appeared that fructose had no advantage (and perhaps even a disadvantage) to glucose as an immediate carbohydrate energy source and glycogen sparing drink when ingested DURING exercise.

 

[wilson6]

"Fructose does not need insulin for its transport into the cell and is preferentially extracted from the blood stream by the liver (versus the muscle cell). (Int J Sport Nutr 1997 Jun;7(2):117-27) looked at the metabolism of glucose versus fructose eaten as a preexercise meal from 180 to 90 min before exercise in 6 subjects. it appeared that fructose had no advantage (and perhaps even a disadvantage) to glucose as an immediate carbohydrate energy source and glycogen sparing drink when ingested DURING exercise."

Correct.

"Monosaccharides (single sugar molecules) deliver energy to the body quickly as they do not need to be digested into smaller pieces before absorption takes place."

True, but I'm not sold on the contention that "digestion" in the case of carbohydrases makes much difference if you're starting with glucose (monosaccharide) or maltodextrin (polysaccharide). In fact, both produce similar blood glucose and insulin responses ( ANNALS OF NUTRITION AND METABOLISM. vol. 32, no. 1 (1988): 23-9.). The -ases act very quickly and the end result is similar.

The other point that needs to be made here is that fructose is passively absorbed by the gut while glucose is actively absorbed. Another reason not to use fructose as it can cause osmotic diarrhea.

AND,

I completely agree with this.

"Post-workout insulin spikes are very usefull as they increase the absorbtion / uptake of other nutrients such as protein or creatine. It is not bad for cutting, as long as you take the high concentrations of sugars after workouts only."

Sugars = maltodextrin or glucose, not table sugar.

W6

 

[wilson6]

Remy,

Were you at the Dieticians of Canada Conference in Winnipeg last June?

W6

 

[rez]

Sugars = maltodextrin or glucose, not table sugar.

W6 [/B][/QUOTE]

whats the best form to get these in? powder or recovery drink eg gatorade?
is there a protein powder that would be appropriate for post workout...i have only ever purchased zero carb protein powders..

 

[dieslgrl]

hey guys quit with all the scientific bullshit... eat a few rice cakes after your workout with a whey protein shake while cutting and call it even.

dg

 

[BigEasy]

Big easy, sucrose is a poor choice also. It is half glucose and half fructose......................

Dough!!! You are correct of course, thanks for correcting that! I think that I shall go back and edit my post to avoid confusing others. [Note to self: In the future do not try to whip off short consise answers to complex questions, especially while in a hurry!]

One other common source of sugar for many is honey. I think I remember seeing somewhere that honey is mostly fructose sugars, and a poor source of carbos for post-workout. On the other hand, I think it was supposedly touted to be great for endurance athletes pre-event for sustained energy. Anybody remember this study, I can't put my fingers on it now....


W6, and Remy, how do you feel about claims by food processors that maltodextrin rich products, like Splenda, have no insulin response? I have heard the arguments that a one teaspoon sugar-equivalent serving of Splenda is insufficient to evoke insulin responses. Is this correct? At what serving point should those on CKx diets (of which I do not personally care for) be concerned?

 

[SteelWeaver]

Wow, thanks guys! Don't worry - I knew that fructose is a bad choice. I was just concerned that the insulin spike from high GI carbs would, as Robboe said, provide fat-storing conditions. However, since calories are in deficit, I need not worry about this, right?

Next question: Exactly HOW many grams, on average, does it take to replenish muscle glycogen stores after an intense weight training workout?

 

[wilson6]

"Next question: Exactly HOW many grams, on average, does it take to replenish muscle glycogen stores after an intense weight training workout?"

Depends on how much you oxidize. With endurance athletes (males) after complete depletion, probably 350 - 600 grams over 24 - 36 hours. For a bout of resistance exercise, much less. Don't know if that's ever been looked at. I'll have to dig in the lit.

"hey guys quit with all the scientific bullshit... "

What the **** did I go to grad school for if I can't have a little fun?

W6

 

[rez]

w6, in your opinion...

many g of carbs should a female consume post training

 

[dieslgrl]

w6- you know I was only messing with you honey... LOL.. your knowledge is very much appreciated on these boards.

dg

 

[Robboe]

"Wow, thanks guys! Don't worry - I knew that fructose is a bad choice. I was just concerned that the insulin spike from high GI carbs would, as Robboe said, provide fat-storing conditions. However, since calories are in deficit, I need not worry about this, right?"

***The only concern you should have is whether you'd feel fatigued from the falling insulin levels [unless you have another carb meal afterward which would 'stabilise' insulin] and whether you feel you won;t get hunger pains from the fast digestion. This, however, is easily side stepped by incluidng fibrous green vegetables in every other remaining meal. I do this and have become quite accustomed to caulieflower and broccoli...

"Next question: Exactly HOW many grams, on average, does it take to replenish muscle glycogen stores after an intense weight training workout?"

***Depends on quite a lot of factors. How big are your muscles? how depelted are your glycogen stores? [eg marathon runner compared to say a HIT trainer] etc..

I think i remember seeing a formula like 0.8g carbs per kilo of bodyweight. I dunno if this is true in general, only true for 'bulking' purposes or only true for males.

Bigeasy, honey is half glucose half fructose I believe. I'm not sure about endurance athletes, but i've heard something similar to that myself. Oh, and all the studies showing that honey is a good post workout carbohydrate source for weight training athletes was financed by the national honey board. Hmmmm...

 

[‡ÅnãBöLïK]

Remy,

Were you at the Dieticians of Canada Conference in Winnipeg last June?

W6

No, I didn't get the opportunity.

I agree with the statement 'In fact, both produce similar blood glucose and insulin responses' my response was regarding the digestion factor not specifically the outcome insulin response, I believe that blending the carb sources would produce the best overall result.

My other account under the handle Remy is not working right now incase you were wondering about the name change.

 

[‡ÅnãBöLïK]

W6, and Remy, how do you feel about claims by food processors that maltodextrin rich products, like Splenda, have no insulin response? I have heard the arguments that a one teaspoon sugar-equivalent serving of Splenda is insufficient to evoke insulin responses. Is this correct?

From what I have read, Sucralose (brand name Splenda) is a new sweetener that is derived from sugar.
- regarding its insulin responce -


.::Glycemic effect of a single high oral dose of the novel sweetener sucralose in patients with diabetes. (Mezitis NH, Maggio CA, Koch P, Quddoos A, Allison DB, Pi-Sunyer FX.)::. The study was done to examine the effect of a single high oral dose of the noncaloric sweetener sucralose on short-term glucose homeostasis in patients.

RESULT:Regardless of the type of diabetes, areas under the curves for changes of plasma glucose and serum C-peptide levels after sucralose administration were not significantly different from those after placebo.

CONCLUSION: The present results support the conclusion that sucralose consumption does not adversely affect short-term blood glucose control in patients with diabetes.

.::Repeated dose study of sucralose tolerance in human subjects.(Baird IM, Shephard NW, Merritt RJ, Hildick-Smith G)::.Two tolerance studies were conducted in healthy human adult volunteers. The first study was an ascending dose study conducted in eight subjects, in which sucralose was administered at doses of 1, 2. 5, 5 and 10mg/kg at 48-hour intervals and followed by daily dosing at 2mg/kg for 3 days and 5mg/kg for 4 days. In the second study, subjects consumed either sucralose (n=77) or fructose (50g/day) (n=31) twice daily in single blind fashion

RESULT: No adverse experiences or clinically detectable effects were attributable to sucralose in either study. Similarly, haematology, serum biochemistry, urinalysis and EKG tracings were unaffected by sucralose administration. In the 13-week study, serial slit lamp ophthalmologic examination performed in a random subset of the study groups revealed no changes. Fasting and 2-hour post-dosing blood sucralose concentrations obtained daily during week 12 of the study revealed no rising trend for blood sucralose

 

[MS]

I think that a high GI meal is a good idea post workout when you're trying to add LBM with minimal fat gain. I've not seen any evidence (personal or scientific) that is makes any difference in an underfed state. You also don't need to worry too much about liver glycogen as long as you're getting plenty of protein/carbs in your diet, and having high carb refeeds. Stay away from fructose. Despite what honey-board research may say, there is compelling evidence that fructose directly increases insulin resistance. I can't think of any time during a diet when this is a good thing. High carb (non fructose) refeeds will fill up your muscles, then fill up your liver as long as you eat enough.

I agree protein is an expensive way to refill muscle glycogen. However that is the main reason for increasing protein intake when on a hypocaloric diet. Your muscles are like a sponge post workout on a hypocaloric diet. As long as you get enough protein to prevent catabolism you don't absolutely NEED a postworkout insulin spike. Remember: Fat loss requires minimization of muscle catabolism, LBM gain requires maximization of anabolism. You can't adequately do both at the same time in a normal female hormonal mileu IMHO.

 

[wilson6]

Maltodextrin and sucralose are two different substances.

Maltodextrin will break down rapidly into glucose in the gut. The insulin response is the same as glucose.

Sucralose is a sugar alcohol. Very different response.

W6

 

[missyd143]

why is spenda no sugar and 0 calories but contains malto and dextrose..is it ok to have cause i use alot of it..will it prevent fat burning and raise insulin?

 

[SteelWeaver]

If I were Steel, I'd be thinking, "Would someone just tell me what to put in the pie-hole!?!?!??!?!" (Thanks for the suggestion DG)

Correct. Although, as you know spatts - I'll happily read anything that will increase my knowledge of how to do this whole BB thing more effectively and efficiently, and more importantly - know WHY - that's precisely why I hang around here - to watch people like W6 "play" .

Now, would someone just tell me what to put in the pie-hole?????

I work out at night, I drink my post-workout drink between 9 and 9:30 pm, I eat my final meal at 11 pm or so. Both of these meals contain high(ish) GI carbs (plus protein). Hunger is not a problem after this, since I go straight to sleep, although I have fibrous carbs too since they are yummy.

I'm not having a problem cutting right now, but is this a variable/manipulable factor for potential slow-downs?

 

[SteelWeaver]

As long as you get enough protein to prevent catabolism you don't absolutely NEED a postworkout insulin spike.

OK, but the question is, will it be detrimental to fat loss?

 

[dieslgrl]

remember that after a workout, this is the time you will LEAST likely store those carbs as fat... just don't over do it. I weigh 158lbs now around !0%bf--caliper tests said I was 9.7 at 15 weeks out, so I am not sure about accuracy, so I say 10% to be safe. (I am cutting- 12 weeks five days out) I normally stick with all food, because I can... after my workout, I have 35grams protein (usually talapia or orange roughy) with 5-7 lightly salted rice cakes.. (35-49 carbs--depending on WHAT I trained--- legs get the 7 rice cakes, everything else gets 5) This works well for me.... but I am sure everyone is different... I know you should probably have liquid post-workout, but I take 10g glutamine, 1000mg vit c, and 1000iu's vit E just before I eat...

give a few things a try... all options are great, but I like to EAT, and to not eat for another two hours after a shake makes me crazy with hunger... one thing is for sure... stay away from the fructose!

dg

 

[MS]

"OK, but the question is, will it be detrimental to fat loss?"

I dunno, my crystal ball is broken. I must be suffering PMS. Please don't obsess about every little thing. Remember I told you before how catabolic stress is?

I suspect that IF your high GI carbs are taken after a workout as part of a carb cycling diet AND you're losing mostly fat and little muscle AND your appetite is in control THEN it doesn't matter. I personally haven't tried this on myself or clients, and I'm certain there are no scientific studies that directly address this question in dieting female bodybuilders.

Personally (when cutting) I prefer to stick to low GI carbs except for carb refeed days when anything goes as far as GI. When not cutting I usually have high GI meals post workout.

 

[SteelWeaver]

"OK, but the question is, will it be detrimental to fat loss?"

I dunno, my crystal ball is broken. I must be suffering PMS. Please don't obsess about every little thing. Remember I told you before how catabolic stress is?

Haaah ha ha ha haah hah ha!!! Crystal ball! That's good! Damn, I KNEW you couldn't just KNOW all this stuff - not just off the top of your head.

Well, I hope you get it fixed soon.

OK, now I've had a good, relaxing belly laugh, I'll stop obsessing - tee hee!

(Until the NEXT question occurs to me ... don, don, don, don - theme to Jaws in background ...)

(Hey, there are studies on stress and catabolism in dieting female bodybuilders? What stress levels? How much catabolism? What variables? What did they use for controls? How much LBM loss ? ... )

 

[BigEasy]

Splenda

You are correct, Splenda brand sweetener is indeed a chlorinated sucrose derivative. The interesting thing is the box label shows it contains maltodextrins (probably to add volume and allow it to be measured the same a regular sugar). I know this falls in the "unimportant minutia department", so ignore my wanderings if you find them offensive, I am just curious.

I am unclear how a product with maltodextrins can be zero calories. Unless perhaps the maltodextrin caloric contribution is less than .5 kcalories and is rounded down, it would seem contradictory to state 0 kcals and a malto content. I know most diet soft drinks claim 1-5 kcals, so there seems to be some precedense for claiming even minor kcal content.

Or is this another US legal definition thing, somewhat like the "That depends upon the meaning of IS," comment by the ex-president?


Inquiring minds want to know?! LOL

 

[Benz1]

Post Workout Carbs

I have wondered for a while now what I should put in my body after my workout, while dieting. I've experimented with a couple different suggestions. A very knowledgeable Dr. advised me to take bcaa's and creatine after my workout only (when dieting) and drink 1/2 of a (low carb) protein drink 1 hour after training. I gave it 4 weeks and couldnt take any more. This killed my energy level and I severly suffered on my next workout. Just as W6 was saying "you need carbs to burn fat." I have been sticking with a 1/2 carb-protein drink along with bcaa's immediatly following my workout. This is helping my energy and following workouts, but is it helping cut body fat?? I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing... I know everyone's different, but I want some more opinions.

 

[rez]

after cardio i like to have low gi carbs and high protein MEAL..real food, im too hungry if ii just have a shake.

 

[SteelWeaver]

I suspect that IF your high GI carbs are taken after a workout as part of a carb cycling diet AND you're losing mostly fat and little muscle AND your appetite is in control THEN it doesn't matter.

And, just for clarity, your definition of a carb cycling diet (for our purposes here on this thread in relation to this specific topic) is ... any hypocaloric diet where carbs are periodically raised above maintenance caloric levels, be it every 3, 5, 7, 10, or even 14 days, right?

I personally haven't tried this on myself or clients,

Why not?

and I'm certain there are no scientific studies that directly address this question in dieting female bodybuilders.

Maybe it's time the Elite ladies did some experimenting ...

Personally (when cutting) I prefer to stick to low GI carbs except for carb refeed days when anything goes as far as GI.

Why?

 

[SteelWeaver]

W6, Robboe said perhaps 0.8g/kg bodyweight. Did you manage to find anything on this?

 

[JJFigure]

Thought I'd bump this old thread, since Slinky and I are in muscle-building mode. Any more women out there have success with high GI carbs post-workout?

I've been doing low GI post-workout; I'm curious to see how the high GI approach is working for other women trying to gain lbm with minimal fat gain.

 

[wilson6]

Why not give it a try for a couple of weeks and decide for yourself?

W6

 

[rez]

Thought I'd bump this old thread, since Slinky and I are in muscle-building mode. Any more women out there have success with high GI carbs post-workout?

I've been doing low GI post-workout; I'm curious to see how the high GI approach is working for other women trying to gain lbm with minimal fat gain.

im doing a ckd, but tried higi carbs post w/o for a few weeks, and found that i gained size and bf%..so it wasnt for me. but try it - each to their own..

 

[lil k]

Thought I'd bump this old thread, since Slinky and I are in muscle-building mode. Any more women out there have success with high GI carbs post-workout?

I've been doing low GI post-workout; I'm curious to see how the high GI approach is working for other women trying to gain lbm with minimal fat gain.

i am really having sucess with it......im cutting and actually starting a few cutting experiements i will be documenting....for post workouts now i am taking about 50grams of cabs from dextrose (g.i. 100) with 40grams of whey isolate.....

last year i did a mock pre-contest diet and managed to maintain and gain lbm, while dropping bf% to a low level....it seems to work quit well for me.

 

[JJFigure]

Actually, I guess I'm been doing moderate GI, since I'm using rolled oats - 50 grams of whey isolate followed by 1 cup of oatmeal post workout. I'm really into eating my carbs right now - especially that oatmeal. I really missed my oats.

I'm gonna stick with my current approach for a while to see how it works. Plus, the thought of drinking dextrose just skeeves me - too sweet. I can't even add honey to my whey isolate; it just gags me.

 

[seeclear]

post w/o

i have been looking into chngng post w/o meal. for over 1 yr i have used whey w/ orange juice or other high GI juice. I am very insulin sensitive and seem to be increasing so lately. sometimes i become extreamly sleepy and even disoriented. i tried to chnge to blending whole fruit instead of using juice to see if added fiber would help. did some but not much. i really want to use carbs w/ some nut value. i thought everyone used high gi carbs after w/o. have never considered anything eles. i have experienced nice results with what i am doing but it is affecting my studing time. do low gi carbs reach muscle in enough time? does dextrose have same insulin effect as juice?

 

[JJFigure]

I'm making a generalization here, but women are more insulin sensitive than men, so we have to be a little more careful with our high GIs. I just finished up with a contest diet, and high GI foods still make me feel like mierda after I eat them, so I've pretty much avoided them - even post workout. Rolled oats have been my solution, and I'm feeling pretty good, so we'll see how it plays out.

Dextrose would have more than an insulin effect than juice; if you're insulin sensitive, you might just use a small amount, say 25 grams.