Ok *nervous laughter* - what about...

[TheProject]

Project I really don't know....in light of research on TUT and I believe the research......maybe changing the WAY you do the assistance work..ie - dropping the TUT to around the 20-40 second range to hit more strength fibers...{the fact that you are growing could be attributed to being in the fringe outer time of 60 seconds for size increases...if you are doing 15 reps with a 2-2 cadence - that makes sense).....maybe try that(dropping TUT) when you hit a plateau.....


I do not want anyone to think this is a personal attack......it's just that the research is/will be overwhelming....

I certainly don't take this as a personal attack. Hell, I'm out to learn just like everyone else.

I was stuck at a plateau with my BB training. I felt like a lot of my lifts were stalled.

Since switching to PL style, I have to hit what I would term a plateau. However, it's only been a short period of time, and I would expect a plateau of some sort is inevitable.

At the risk of opening a HUGE can of worms...what about the guys at Westside?

 

[ThePolishHammer]

It depends on your definition of failiure too.
If failiure occurs when you can no longer proform a given movement within a set. Then i think everyone trains to failiure.
It seems most people are talking about fatiuge. When you've absolutely burnt out every muscle fiber avalible to you, and you cant preform any more reps whatsoever.
For example.
In my chest workout I use Dips and DB incline Presses. I go to failiure in each one of those, with maybe a few foced reps. Then in my following isolation exercises (flys and crossovers) Ill do forced reps, partial reps, Run the rack a bit, whatever i need to do to completely fry the muscle. That is what i define as fatigue. And it appears to be best for muscle building.
While Failiure with low reps and high reps is best for strength
So
Mass Bulding: (After Compound Movements) Isolation Exercises: 10 reps + 5 forced reps(or untill complete fatiuge)
Strength Training: Compound Movements: 1-5 reps

 

[Lumberg]

I train to failure on Bench and DLs.

I also train to failure on most of my assistance exercises.

I haven't lately forced myself to failure on squats--feel like I left that kind of intensity behind when I stopped playing football.

I feel like I have pretty much reached my genetic peak as far as size and strength are concerned. I guess I am just trying to eke out whatever little extra gains there are and burn calories to get cut.

JC

 

[gettinlarger]

I think training to failure on every set would just be stupid. You'd be so burnt out ...

 

[lemur]

Training to failure is fine, but you need to take into consideration the need for extra recovery it presents, because of a couple things.

1. DOMS - DOMS is more common when training to failure, and DOMS can interfere with recovery.

2. CNS fatigue - your CNS has to work much harder when training to failure (eccentric, concentrenic, anything) and even a couple sets to failure can extend recovery by a few days in an average individual.

The reason I think failure is not advised among strength trainees is because they are already stressing CNS very hard by training in 1-5 rep range, failure would extend recovery even more than it already has to be.

Even for hypertrophy training, I don't think it's wise unless you have extremely good genetics.

 

[b fold the truth]

I rarely ever go to failure...just simply too dangerous with my current set up.

I think that it is important to push the muscles in many different ways. Failure is just one way...but there are many.

B True

 

[Doktor Bollix]

The reason strength athletes don't train to failure is it causes Golgi tendon organ inhibition. The excitation threshold (the signal sent to your brain to stop your muscle from over-exerting itself and tearing off the bone) is actually lowered by training to failure. ie You are making yourself, from a neuro-muscular viewpoint, less efficient. That's where the phrase "Failure breeds failure" on this subject comes from.

In bodybuilding, where you are looking for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and scar-tissue build up and not strength, it has a place, but the metabolic demands of recovery are not worth it compared to other methods. I tried some Mike Mentzer routines for a while and gained some size but no strength and ended up overtrained and detrained at the same time.

BTW very few people really understand what it is to go to failure. It's not when it get's hard to move the weight through a full range of motion, because you may be able to do a few partials fairly easily, it's when you have been straining at the weight as if someone has a gun to your head for 15 seconds and it doesn't move an inch.

I still like 20 rep squats though.

 

[ThePolishHammer]

What is failiure defined as?

 

[b fold the truth]

I can't explain everything...can't explain much really. What I do know is that if you go into the gym a few days a week, for a few years, eat a lot, train hard, and give it all that you have...

YOU WILL GROW.

B True

 

[bignate73]

What is failiure defined as?

3 types of failure, concentric, isometric and eccentric.

for this discussion it looks like concentric is the topic.

from what ive been reading lately, going to failure or even sticking and being forced back on the concentric places very damaging stresses on the myosin crossbridges. ie similar to heavy eccentric work. this in turn can greatly increase recovery time and possiblity of DOMS.

i have avoided training to failure, only going to fatigue (last rep i can squeak out alone) and my recovery time is quick. i feel ready to train that bodypart soon after, with increases in strength.

the TUT principle has been mentioned frequently but not MAX tension. TUT is great but max tension is what is stimulating white fibers. max tension is the portion of the set that counts for strength and size. olympic/pl'ers are notorious for low reps, short sets etc. and have some awesome strength and size because they train at max intensity for a short duration. doing singles, triples, even 5's, plyos etc. in many sets adds up the true MAX TUT. a bodybuilder's set of 8-12 is ramping in intensity only reaching max tension on the last 2-3 or so depending on whether there are forced reps given. maybe some white fiber stimulation in the early part of the set but not to the intensity that it could because the load is low to facilitate the higher reps. the "ramping" intensity will primarily stimulate intermediate fibers due to their characteristics. the white fibers (IIb) get some work in the beginning provided the rep speed is faster to allow for more to be "turned on". with the loads light, the excitation threshold is not always reached for these white fibers all at once (maximum recruitment). as the set wears on, some white fibers have fatigued, mostly intermediate (IIa) are working due to their nature. the reason most of the research states (8-12) for hypertrophy is probably due to the fact that there is a well rounded effect (of stimulation) in that rep range. some IIb stimulation, some IIa stimulation and enough intensity to increase sarcoplasmic adaptation too.

all this is fine from a bodybuilders point of view because the goal for a bb'er is overall hypertrophy. so SR gains, some white fiber growth, increased capillarization, satellite cells etc, will overalll effect the size of the muscle. but for those looking at strength and size a lower rep scheme to work in a more maximum effort setting would be more productive.

<opinion>i look at size gains as being an increase in cross sectional area (CSA) of the muscle which is directly correlated to strength increase. (call me old school) so that would mean i would train for strength and size will follow. i appreciate that there are other means to make a muscle larger, but as an indivudual my muscle needs to be as functionally strong as it is large. </opinion>