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Ok *nervous laughter* - what about...

  • Thread starter Thread starter The Shadow
  • Start date Start date
Arnie said do it (although I don't think he did it all the time himself), so I did it for the vast majority of my training career. It makes sense that greater effort results in more muscular hypertrophy. It seems that for strength, failure is a no-no, though, which I've really just learned this past year. Ed Coan said he avoids it like the plague. Some of the most impressive gains (to me) that I've ever made on bench press were using a Coan periodization scheme where failure was not a necessity. I say mix it up a little, but back off sometimes. It depends on your goals as well, of course.
 
I always train to failure. It always gives me the best pump. I dont have any information as to why it is best, but i think i remember someone saying it forces the muscle to recruit more muscle fibers or something. Where do you come up with these topics? lol im enjoying them though
 
just things that I think newbies in particular should be thinking about.

So we have yes for size no for strength
 
Cornholio said:
yes for size no for strength
Click to expand...

When I do my bb stuff, I train to failure.

PL training, I don't deliberately go to failure, although it has happened on accessory work.
 
my personal opinion is that most people who say they train to failure actualy do not.

For example, the 20 reps breathing squats. That is a true lesson of training to failure. I was utterly surprised at how much reserve my body had to push that one more rep out.

My answer? No, training to failure is not necessary. Intense training is required!
 
CK - excellent point on the 20 reps squats - they TEACh you intensity the hard way.


Project - most AW is "more typical" bb'ing exercises right??
 
Cornholio said:
CK - excellent point on the 20 reps squats - they TEACh you intensity the hard way.


Project - most AW is "more typical" bb'ing exercises right??
Click to expand...

Well, yes and no.

Tricep work, even though you're doing more reps, is still geared toward strength rather than size. For example, we'll do JM presses, elbows out extensions, or rolling extensions as opposed to pulldowns or skullcrushers.

Upper back work is similar exercises, but not done for width. Like lat pulldowns with a reverse grip, hands in close, or chest supported rows with elbows tucked so you're working the plane you bench in.

Any of that make sense?
 
yeah - but why go to failure on assisitance work when you don't go to failure on "pl" exercises???

Wouldn't the theory apply to both types of training since sterngth is the main goal in each?

wouldn't rows work the same plane as that you bench in??
 
Cornholio said:
yeah - but why go to failure on assisitance work when you don't go to failure on "pl" exercises???

Wouldn't the theory apply to both types of training since sterngth is the main goal in each?

wouldn't rows work the same plane as that you bench in??
Click to expand...

That's what I meant: I don't intentionally go to failure on the AW, it just works out that way sometimes. In theory, I should probably stop prior to failure, but I'm stubborn enough to push through all 10 or 15 reps.

Barbell rows are another option for back, but I don't usually do them because my form sucks. :)
 
project - please do NOT take offense at this - but with 10-15 reps)with a nomal rep cadence) you are getting nothing in terms of size OR strength under the TUT.....
 
..given that research is showing that strength = 20-40 seconds and size = 40-60 TUT
 
Cornholio said:
project - please do NOT take offense at this - but with 10-15 reps)with a nomal rep cadence) you are getting nothing in terms of size OR strength under the TUT.....
Click to expand...

No offense taken, but the reality of it is, I've seen both.

Measurements and strength are both up, and I'm still setting PR's. No way that's just from the 2 main moves.
 
how do you know?

Like Hannibal said could be increased motor recruitment.....
 
Cornholio said:
how do you know?

Like Hannibal said could be increased motor recruitment.....
Click to expand...

That's a very good question, and I don't know how to answer it other than with another question: how do we know that any of the stuff we do works?

I've visibly grown, and my lifts are up, so I'd have to say that in general, things are working.

Or are you trying to say that I would see greater results doing something different with my accessory work?
 
I train to failure in just about every workout, but not on every set. My goal is to have pushed the muscle as far as I can by the end of the workout, so I'll use the heavy 5's to work on my strength and overall thickness, but then take it to the wall on the 8-10 rep sets, including a down the rack or drop set on the last one to make sure I've hit failure
 
TheProject said:


That's a very good question, and I don't know how to answer it other than with another question: how do we know that any of the stuff we do works?

I've visibly grown, and my lifts are up, so I'd have to say that in general, things are working.

Or are you trying to say that I would see greater results doing something different with my accessory work?
Click to expand...

Project I really don't know....in light of research on TUT and I believe the research......maybe changing the WAY you do the assistance work..ie - dropping the TUT to around the 20-40 second range to hit more strength fibers...{the fact that you are growing could be attributed to being in the fringe outer time of 60 seconds for size increases...if you are doing 15 reps with a 2-2 cadence - that makes sense).....maybe try that(dropping TUT) when you hit a plateau.....


I do not want anyone to think this is a personal attack......it's just that the research is/will be overwhelming....
 
Cornholio said:


Project I really don't know....in light of research on TUT and I believe the research......maybe changing the WAY you do the assistance work..ie - dropping the TUT to around the 20-40 second range to hit more strength fibers...{the fact that you are growing could be attributed to being in the fringe outer time of 60 seconds for size increases...if you are doing 15 reps with a 2-2 cadence - that makes sense).....maybe try that(dropping TUT) when you hit a plateau.....


I do not want anyone to think this is a personal attack......it's just that the research is/will be overwhelming....
Click to expand...

I certainly don't take this as a personal attack. Hell, I'm out to learn just like everyone else.

I was stuck at a plateau with my BB training. I felt like a lot of my lifts were stalled.

Since switching to PL style, I have to hit what I would term a plateau. However, it's only been a short period of time, and I would expect a plateau of some sort is inevitable.

At the risk of opening a HUGE can of worms...what about the guys at Westside?
 
It depends on your definition of failiure too.
If failiure occurs when you can no longer proform a given movement within a set. Then i think everyone trains to failiure.
It seems most people are talking about fatiuge. When you've absolutely burnt out every muscle fiber avalible to you, and you cant preform any more reps whatsoever.
For example.
In my chest workout I use Dips and DB incline Presses. I go to failiure in each one of those, with maybe a few foced reps. Then in my following isolation exercises (flys and crossovers) Ill do forced reps, partial reps, Run the rack a bit, whatever i need to do to completely fry the muscle. That is what i define as fatigue. And it appears to be best for muscle building.
While Failiure with low reps and high reps is best for strength
So
Mass Bulding: (After Compound Movements) Isolation Exercises: 10 reps + 5 forced reps(or untill complete fatiuge)
Strength Training: Compound Movements: 1-5 reps
 
I train to failure on Bench and DLs.

I also train to failure on most of my assistance exercises.

I haven't lately forced myself to failure on squats--feel like I left that kind of intensity behind when I stopped playing football.

I feel like I have pretty much reached my genetic peak as far as size and strength are concerned. I guess I am just trying to eke out whatever little extra gains there are and burn calories to get cut.

JC
 
Training to failure is fine, but you need to take into consideration the need for extra recovery it presents, because of a couple things.

1. DOMS - DOMS is more common when training to failure, and DOMS can interfere with recovery.

2. CNS fatigue - your CNS has to work much harder when training to failure (eccentric, concentrenic, anything) and even a couple sets to failure can extend recovery by a few days in an average individual.

The reason I think failure is not advised among strength trainees is because they are already stressing CNS very hard by training in 1-5 rep range, failure would extend recovery even more than it already has to be.

Even for hypertrophy training, I don't think it's wise unless you have extremely good genetics.
 
I rarely ever go to failure...just simply too dangerous with my current set up.

I think that it is important to push the muscles in many different ways. Failure is just one way...but there are many.

B True
 
The reason strength athletes don't train to failure is it causes Golgi tendon organ inhibition. The excitation threshold (the signal sent to your brain to stop your muscle from over-exerting itself and tearing off the bone) is actually lowered by training to failure. ie You are making yourself, from a neuro-muscular viewpoint, less efficient. That's where the phrase "Failure breeds failure" on this subject comes from.

In bodybuilding, where you are looking for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and scar-tissue build up and not strength, it has a place, but the metabolic demands of recovery are not worth it compared to other methods. I tried some Mike Mentzer routines for a while and gained some size but no strength and ended up overtrained and detrained at the same time.

BTW very few people really understand what it is to go to failure. It's not when it get's hard to move the weight through a full range of motion, because you may be able to do a few partials fairly easily, it's when you have been straining at the weight as if someone has a gun to your head for 15 seconds and it doesn't move an inch.

I still like 20 rep squats though.
 
I can't explain everything...can't explain much really. What I do know is that if you go into the gym a few days a week, for a few years, eat a lot, train hard, and give it all that you have...

YOU WILL GROW.

B True
 
ThePolishHammer said:
What is failiure defined as?
Click to expand...

3 types of failure, concentric, isometric and eccentric.

for this discussion it looks like concentric is the topic.

from what ive been reading lately, going to failure or even sticking and being forced back on the concentric places very damaging stresses on the myosin crossbridges. ie similar to heavy eccentric work. this in turn can greatly increase recovery time and possiblity of DOMS.

i have avoided training to failure, only going to fatigue (last rep i can squeak out alone) and my recovery time is quick. i feel ready to train that bodypart soon after, with increases in strength.

the TUT principle has been mentioned frequently but not MAX tension. TUT is great but max tension is what is stimulating white fibers. max tension is the portion of the set that counts for strength and size. olympic/pl'ers are notorious for low reps, short sets etc. and have some awesome strength and size because they train at max intensity for a short duration. doing singles, triples, even 5's, plyos etc. in many sets adds up the true MAX TUT. a bodybuilder's set of 8-12 is ramping in intensity only reaching max tension on the last 2-3 or so depending on whether there are forced reps given. maybe some white fiber stimulation in the early part of the set but not to the intensity that it could because the load is low to facilitate the higher reps. the "ramping" intensity will primarily stimulate intermediate fibers due to their characteristics. the white fibers (IIb) get some work in the beginning provided the rep speed is faster to allow for more to be "turned on". with the loads light, the excitation threshold is not always reached for these white fibers all at once (maximum recruitment). as the set wears on, some white fibers have fatigued, mostly intermediate (IIa) are working due to their nature. the reason most of the research states (8-12) for hypertrophy is probably due to the fact that there is a well rounded effect (of stimulation) in that rep range. some IIb stimulation, some IIa stimulation and enough intensity to increase sarcoplasmic adaptation too.

all this is fine from a bodybuilders point of view because the goal for a bb'er is overall hypertrophy. so SR gains, some white fiber growth, increased capillarization, satellite cells etc, will overalll effect the size of the muscle. but for those looking at strength and size a lower rep scheme to work in a more maximum effort setting would be more productive.

<opinion>i look at size gains as being an increase in cross sectional area (CSA) of the muscle which is directly correlated to strength increase. (call me old school) so that would mean i would train for strength and size will follow. i appreciate that there are other means to make a muscle larger, but as an indivudual my muscle needs to be as functionally strong as it is large. </opinion>
 
I am currently trying to train my penis for maximun hypertrophy. I am looking for cross sectional area as well as overall length.

What kind of rep range should I be looking at for these kind of gains?

Right now I am in the 2-4 rep range where one in-out cycle=1 rep. TUT is minimal (approx. 5 secs.), though I am often tense throughout the day.

I keep insisting this is the proper training methodology but my girl friends aren't too happy.

Please back me up on this because they don't understand that it can take years before you see results from this kind of training.

JC
 
I never train to reach failure on purpose, and you can't argue with my gains at all - 12+ lbs and similar strength increases in the last 7 weeks.

And also my TUT is barely over 15 secs in any set, so much for that theory on maixmal muscle growth :)
 
If Time Under Tension is key...then is it to say that I could do one super slow rep that lasted for 15 seconds and get the same effect as 3 reps that lasted 5 seconds each?

B True
 
b fold the truth said:
If Time Under Tension is key...then is it to say that I could do one super slow rep that lasted for 15 seconds and get the same effect as 3 reps that lasted 5 seconds each?

B True
Click to expand...

Yes...in theory...that would fall under the TUT for strength....something similar was done a while back on static holds(ie -SUPER slow rep)....size and dtrength gains were crazy over a 6 week trial
 
CoolColJ said:
I never train to reach failure on purpose, and you can't argue with my gains at all - 12+ lbs and similar strength increases in the last 7 weeks.

And also my TUT is barely over 15 secs in any set, so much for that theory on maixmal muscle growth :)
Click to expand...

hence my point on my post...:)
 
I have a problem on my bench press most of the time. When using a heavy weight I should move the weight quickly downward (not too quickly though) but tend to take it super super slowly. For strength I should be moving it downward quickly...but with a heavy weight I just don't feel that I can control it or reverse my kinetic energy very well if I do that.

I know...makes no sense...

B True
 
b fold the truth said:
I have a problem on my bench press most of the time. When using a heavy weight I should move the weight quickly downward (not too quickly though) but tend to take it super super slowly. For strength I should be moving it downward quickly...but with a heavy weight I just don't feel that I can control it or reverse my kinetic energy very well if I do that.

I know...makes no sense...

B True
Click to expand...
comfort level and control is all you need to worry about. minimizing the eccentric is a good idea in that case but you dont want to trade off injury for faster eccentric. keep in mind you still have a bit of a pause at the bottom where you are stopped so if its easier on you to lower slowly so the weight doesnt come crushing down on you at the weakest part of the rep (most vulnerable at least). my eccentric strength is pretty good so i dont feel nervous coming down with a bit of speed (not dropping like a rock but not taking over a second)
 
B, I'm with you, heavy bench makes me nervous, especially with my bad shoulder, so the negative on the first rep is always really slow to get everything set
 
CoolColJ said:
I never train to reach failure on purpose, and you can't argue with my gains at all - 12+ lbs and similar strength increases in the last 7 weeks.

And also my TUT is barely over 15 secs in any set, so much for that theory on maixmal muscle growth :)
Click to expand...


so you do, what sets of 3-4 reps ONLY?
 
If I am doing a 3 rep set...the first rep is always the slowest...

Something I need to change...

B True
 
I do sets of 3-5 for some and sets of 6-8 for others, but I don't accentuate the negative - just control it, and I lift as fast as I can so 3 secs per rep if that. Most of it in the negative.
I lift pretty ballisticly, I use CAT on just about every exercise I do.

I personally think total time under load is the real cause for growth, and the magnitude of the load. Perhaps TUL over a period of time such as a week.
 
Last edited:
I don't seem to get much out of low rep sets.

The next day I am not as sore even though I went to failure.

Here is my reasoning:

when you pick a weight you can get 10 times you actually have a better chance to go closer to failure. here's why:

let's say you get 3 reps clean but need help for the fourth. how much help did you need? maybe 10% worth. you still had 90% of a final rep in you.

But when you do 10 reps you probably need a lot more help to do that last rep.

It's hard to put into words but there is more resolution as far as how close you actually get to failure on higer rep sets. However for other reasons (that I have trouble articulating) I don't like going much over 15. Definitely never over 20.

Also with more reps you are doing more work in the mechanical sense of the word.

IE 165# raised 25 inches 10 times represents more work than 185# raised 4 times.

Again my goal is not 1RM and I also switch things around every few months so I do do low rep training just for a changeup.

JC
 
I'm plenty sore from 2 sets 4-5 rep squats! Not DOMS, just a dull ache. I use CAT though, that maybe the key.
 
Compes training causes crazy soreness for me.


Super slow reps??

I'm saying that the research looks very good...use whatever TUT that meets your goals....it also completely reduces lifting momentum......
 
I swear that strength training is so much less complicated. All I have to do is just go kill myself with heavy objects...

Corn...c'mon up man and we can discuss all of this over a pizza..

B True
 
actually you are right.

Most people including myself shot-gun things...like Spatts and hannibal using pl work and assistance and high reps...my idea is ok:

Let's find out what has the most bang-for-the-buck and let's then emphasize that.


Fold - I'm tellin ya...when things settle a little....I'm going to NY in NOV...maybe i'll take off two weeks instead of one...
 
CoolColJ said:
I'm plenty sore from 2 sets 4-5 rep squats! Not DOMS, just a dull ache. I use CAT though, that maybe the key.
Click to expand...

CAT training can give just as much stress if not more than a controlled rep. explosive training will recruit tons of white fibers as well. i think more than "superslow".
 
I guess that I am just finding that anything and everything is working for me at the moment. I get better every training session because my technique is improving and I am feeling more comfortable with the implements...

yes...definately take 2 weeks off...

B True
 
bignate73 said:


CAT training can give just as much stress if not more than a controlled rep. explosive training will recruit tons of white fibers as well. i think more than "superslow".
Click to expand...

I agree.

I think superslow is primarily most beneficial for bb'ers...
 
Cornholio said:
actually you are right.


Fold - I'm tellin ya...when things settle a little....I'm going to NY in NOV...maybe i'll take off two weeks instead of one...
Click to expand...

I'll meet ya in KY...I'll even bring you some smurf slaw. :D
 
Sure...B True talks about pizza and lifting odd objects and he MAY come up... A hot woman offers smurf slaw and he is there...

:lmao:

B True
 
I think we should all converge in STL at Eagle, personally.

Corn...doesn't your wife ever make you smurf slaw?
 
August 31st: Group of strongmen coming to my place to train (KC, NC, FL, etc...)
Sept 7: Going to STL to practice train.
Sept 14: Night Fly's Nationals in STL.

B True
 
lol at Fold - you big old scoop of sexy - you could have mentioned slaw yourself - you big old shy lug you.


um....I'll plead the 5th on the slaw comment for now Spats...
 
I'm still lost on the slaw deal...

You like BBQ or bean n taters?

Would I get bigger if I ate my meals in spoonfull sets of 8 reps or should I get LARGE scoops and try to do a series of sets with singles or doubles? Do I need to focus on pasta, steak, or butter with these sets for best results?

B True
 
:lmao:

B True
 
A R T H U R B R Y A N T S ! ! ! !

Although, I can smoke up some mean country style pork ribs. Fall off the bone. :D
 
Hmmm...we have Bad Bob's here:)

B True
 
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