Millions can't find family doctor (Ah, The Joys of socialized medicine)

[Delinquent]

Sorry Poink but Nordi's right.


I have insurance (THANK GOD!) - which is just shy of $500 a month for just myself and I have a hard time finding a doctor. Cut out the ones not covered by the carrier, the ones that don't accept new patients, the ones that are 2-3 hours away leaves me with the local yahoo's that I fear will one day kill me because they lack the motivation to be knowledgeable of lethal prescription drug interactions. (Don't get me started on the local pharmacists.)

Ya but you live in New York so that's expected

 

[Lao Tzu]

You can opt out of socialized healthcare in most, if not all, countries that have it. its called a 2-tier system. It lets the well off and those who want better care obtain it for a fee. If you want a transplant ASAP, you can still get one by opting out. Hell, you can even travel to india to get one. At the end of the day you'd probably pay about 40% less for universal socialized healthcare and private healthcare in Australia than you would for 'our' selective socialized healthcare and private healthcare in the US.

And good luck getting rid of medicare/medicaid and all the small programs (immunization, education, etc). Even if you did get rid of it all it would mean is old people and poor young people would end up putting off medical procedures until they get expensive, then they would run to the ER with an 8k bill. That 8k will be passed onto the private industry and the cost of your insurance, drugs and medical bills will go up dramatically. You end up paying for other people one way or another, the argument that because you don't pay directly doesn't prevent you from paying later on because their bills end up much higher and are passed onto people like you when you go in for care.

i know a girl who can't afford a dentist. a visit (w/o a discount card) is about $110, a filling is maybe $100 and a root canal is $1500. All fillings become root canals if you wait long enough. She couldn't afford the $100 visti and $100 fillings so now she has alot of $1500 root canals (but she will probably get them pulled instead). Things like this happen in the healthcare system if you cut out assistance for the poor, their problems just get bigger and when tehy are emergencies (which it is illegal to not treat) people like you end up paying more to make up for the fact that they can't afford 30k in emergency surgery.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Also, the US has the least government intervention in healthcare and we spend the most per person for our healthcare. Not only that but i put up an article earlier about how private hospitals were alot more corrupt than public hospitals.

You may not like VA care but i can think of alot of people who would take VA care over no care whatsoever.

 

[Razorguns]

Who says there's no *FREE* medical? What's medicare for? When was the last time an illegal alien got a bill for having a baby, or going in for a gunshot wound. We ALL pay for emergencies. It's non-emergency procedures that healthcare is for. We can give FREE healthcare to all, but you really want to pay an extra 5% tax per year so others can USE the system to their hearts content???

 

[Code]

Per capita though, it's aboot the same since Canada has like 4 full-time citizens.

The rest play hockey in America.

wow, 1.2 million who had trouble finding a regular doctor compared to our 41 million uninsured and 50 million underinsured people. Those poor communist bastards.


Comparing 1.2 million people who don't have a regular doctor and 91 million who don't have a doctor period is a very, very, very bad argument against socialized medicine.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You can opt out of socialized healthcare in most, if not all, countries that have it. its called a 2-tier system. It lets the well off and those who want better care obtain it for a fee.

Can you opt out of paying into the system AT ALL? Everything socialized in the US can be described as "rich people pay the overwhelming majority of the costs".

Additionally, the creation of a tier of government payors increases the cost of private care, because it bastardizes the idea of supply and demand, that is why we have such exorbitant costs here.....the government has forced costs up.

If you want a transplant ASAP, you can still get one by opting out. Hell, you can even travel to india to get one. At the end of the day you'd probably pay about 40% less for universal socialized healthcare and private healthcare in Australia than you would for 'our' selective socialized healthcare and private healthcare in the US.

you can't expect me to believe that involving the government would save money. It never does.

And good luck getting rid of medicare/medicaid and all the small programs (immunization, education, etc). Even if you did get rid of it all it would mean is old people and poor young people would end up putting off medical procedures until they get expensive, then they would run to the ER with an 8k bill. That 8k will be passed onto the private industry and the cost of your insurance, drugs and medical bills will go up dramatically. You end up paying for other people one way or another, the argument that because you don't pay directly doesn't prevent you from paying later on because their bills end up much higher and are passed onto people like you when you go in for care.

Unless we just don't treat them. Then the costs will drop preciptiously, won't they? A restaurant can refuse service to anyone. Why not doctors? Why do we expect doctors to provide their service any time it is needed?

The other side of your coin is that people will start going to the doctor every time they have a sniffle.

The best system is one whereby people consider what they can afford, how they feel, and decide whether or not they need care.

i know a girl who can't afford a dentist. a visit (w/o a discount card) is about $110, a filling is maybe $100 and a root canal is $1500. All fillings become root canals if you wait long enough. She couldn't afford the $100 visti and $100 fillings so now she has alot of $1500 root canals (but she will probably get them pulled instead). Things like this happen in the healthcare system if you cut out assistance for the poor, their problems just get bigger and when tehy are emergencies (which it is illegal to not treat) people like you end up paying more to make up for the fact that they can't afford 30k in emergency surgery.

This highlights the flaws of our system. Government bureaucracy highlights your proposition.

Mine is based on voluntary association of free individuals. What's so bad about that?

All you are doing is saying "A sucks, let's try B". What about, neither A nor B?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Sorry Poink but Nordi's right.


...local yahoo's that I fear will one day kill me because they lack the motivation to be knowledgeable of lethal prescription drug interactions. (Don't get me started on the local pharmacists.)

Imagine how bad things will get when even these local yahoo's no longer have to fear competition because the Fed has taken over.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Can you opt out of paying into the system AT ALL? Everything socialized in the US can be described as "rich people pay the overwhelming majority of the costs".

Additionally, the creation of a tier of government payors increases the cost of private care, because it bastardizes the idea of supply and demand, that is why we have such exorbitant costs here.....the government has forced costs up.

you can't expect me to believe that involving the government would save money. It never does.

Unless we just don't treat them. Then the costs will drop preciptiously, won't they? A restaurant can refuse service to anyone. Why not doctors? Why do we expect doctors to provide their service any time it is needed?

The other side of your coin is that people will start going to the doctor every time they have a sniffle.

The best system is one whereby people consider what they can afford, how they feel, and decide whether or not they need care.

This highlights the flaws of our system. Government bureaucracy highlights your proposition.

Mine is based on voluntary association of free individuals. What's so bad about that?

All you are doing is saying "A sucks, let's try B". What about, neither A nor B?

You can't opt out totally. No developed country lets you opt out totally. That is one of the 'drawbacks' of living in a wealthy, developed country. All of them have socialized healthcare in one form or another.

Actually costs in the US are due to a multitude of factors, most of which are cureable with government intervention (hear me out)

Administration. Administration takes up 25% of private healthcare funds, about $400 billion. But with medicare it takes up 3%. In places like Canada i think its around 14%. Government intervention cuts down administration costs drastically. Medicare is a great example of this. If medicare made up our 1.5 trillion a year spending on healthcare then 45 billion would be spent on administration instead of the 400 billion we currently spend.

No price negotiation on drugs. I know you're against this but government intervention would save people money by doing this.

Unnecessary treatments for the rich and poor treatments for the poor. The rich end up spending alot more money than they need on unnecessary treatments. They may end up buying the 'newest, bestest' heart medication that costs $3000 a year and studies show works no better than aspirin, which costs about $1 a year. The poor on the other hand put off medical care until their problems are major and cost 20x as much to treat. Government intervention would treat both of these things. If you are rich and still want the 3k pills, go ahead. But you'd have to pay for them yourself if the $1 aspirin works just as well.

SO when you combine all 3 of these things its easy to understand why in the US we pay 15% of GDP while places like Japan or the UK pay 7-8% of GDP on healthcare. Even though people visit the doctor more in Japan.

Voluntary association of free individuals is great if you are in the top 5% of wage earners and 28 years old with no real medical problems. But your arguments are as self serving as the 70 year old diabetic, retired factory worker who is on medicare.

Go into detail about voluntary association of free individuals? You mean treating healthcare like a commodity, just like paper plates you mean? Buy as much or as few as you can afford if that is what you want?

my point is 'true' voluntary association will end up raising administration costs to 30%, the poor will die in droves and/or end up spending tons at the last minute while the rich will blow through money on stuff they don't need. A very inefficient system and 90% of the public will not stand for it.

 

[Code]

Why is the government's job to save people money?

No price negotiation on drugs. I know you're against this but government intervention would save people money by doing this.

 

[Razorguns]

Don't forget the US has a HUGE problem of illegal aliens.

Can you IMAGINE the national crisis that would develop if people from mexico, africa and china could all jump the border here and get heart transplants, cancer treatments and kidney problems???

People would DYE trying to get into this country, rather than lead a certain a death in their own 3rd world country.

The circumstances alone forbid the US from even "thinking" about any more nationally-run healthcare program. Illegals already are abusing it to kingdom-come for everything they can, and paying squat back.