Millions can't find family doctor (Ah, The Joys of socialized medicine)

[MattTheSkywalker]

I'm sounding like a broken record here. Yes, there are wait times at our emergency rooms and for some surgery. It is due to government cutbacks on staffing because our government idiots do not know how to run a country without wasting billions on administrative and other bullshit. It IS NOT due to our 'free medical' system. Our 'free medical' system worked like a well oiled machine for decades before the last 10 years of govermental fuckups.

You are sounding like a broken record. It is appreciated though, some people will listen, others won't.

You are missing one point, though. The issue is not "the last 10 years of government fuck-ups". It is not as if your government of 10 years ago was somehow smarter, better, more talented, and they have been replaced by zoo animals.

Rather, the expenses associated with the system are growing and - I suspect - voters are clamoring for some sort of cost control. So the politicians give it to them. As government always does, they act in a heavy handed manner and make across the board cuts without awareness of the specific outcomes. Government never trims spending without people clamoring for it.

Reduced staff and the like are the result of these cuts. Canadians are willing to bear a high tax burden. However, the costs of the health care programs will continue to go up, since there are no MARKET forces acting to control them, only legislation.

Note that legislation acts by cutting staff, (or whatever) not by increasing efficiencies, which is how a market fixes costs.

The cost of services is the same (to government, the payor) yet the amount of people providing them has decreased. Assuredly, this will continue. Eventually, there will be cuts in other areas, in order to meet the public's cry for "affordable healthcare".

The price of the services (drugs, hospitals, whatever) NEVER come down absent the action of a free market. If the price is forced down, you can be assured that quality will follow by definiton.

This is why universal healthcare is inherently flawed. You either get reduced amounts of services (happening in Canada now, according to you, staff cuts) or you get reduced quality of service...which, is coming. The last option is a tax increase, meaning that maintaining the same level of care costs more. However, without market forces, the same dollar cannot deliver MORE.

There is no corrective market action. The system is innately inefficient.

For the last time, our country has healthcare problems (as does the US and every other country) due to government mismanagement. It does not have problems due to our 'socialized, universal healthcare system'. That has been proven over and over again in our country to work beautifully.

Thank you

I am repeating myself too. It is not "mismanagement". It is, economically, the only possible outcome in a universal system.

 

[bluepeter]

I wish i could post articles, news stories and government reports on the waiting times for emergencies and various medical services throughout various parts of Canada. I do not just "pull facts out of a hat". This is from actual investigative news sources. It's NOT uncommon to wait 8 hours in some cities to get emergency medical treatment. And are you NOT in agreement -- that Canada's hospitals are lagging in modern technology and availabilty of funds for expansion, more personnel and better treatment??? Most hospitals I read are still in crisis mode when it comes to finances.

Great by-product of the socialist healthcare system. All that money and they're STILL broke and under-staffed.

>before the last 10 years of govermental fuckups.

No, the problem is the government never took into accordance the insertion of 300,000+ immigrants every single year. All which puts a major strain on the healthcare system as soon as they get here. The amount of medical services, hospital beds, availablity of well-trained doctors, medical equipment as well as budgets for most provinces have NEVER kept up accordingly with the population increases. In some cases it has DECREASED.

If i went to Cedars-Sinai here in Beverly Hills -- trust me, i do NOT expect to be told they only have *1* doctor right now on staff and to come back in 8 hours.

And let's NOT even get into the huge disparity in salaries and incentives between US and Canadian doctors. Another reason many of the country's brightest head south.

*sigh* read my previous posts. It has nothing to do with the 'socialist' system we operate under and everything to do with government mismanagement. We have had huge influxes of immigrants for years and none of this was a problem. It only became a problem in the last 8 years under our Federal Liberal government and their excellent handling of our tax dollars.

 

[Razorguns]

The reason your "new" government is struggling to keep up a respectable level of health-care in the country, is, as Matt succintly described -- due to the system itself.

It's akin to trying to package a pinto for a car race. It's futile, frustrating and involves just tacking on more and more expensive additions to try to make it faster.

Now if Canada had tried to reach a balance of socialist and market-driven in terms of the industry -- that I could understand to a point. And perhaps could be even commendable. But just merely solving the problem by wastefully throwing out taxpayer dollars and getting VERY LITTLE back for that dollar, is a disservice for every Canadian out there.

Nothing like paying 15% sales tax and exoburent income taxes and still getting second-rate health-care compared to the US. Not bad compared to the rest of the world, but still second-rate.

You'd be surprised at how well a free market, profit-driven, capitalist industry can result in efficiency and advances that beforehand, was unheard of. Ask any government agency that decided to "outsource" certain elements of their department to the private industry and all the benefits they got out of it. Which of course, speaks volumes of the INEFFICIENCY of government workers as well. But that's another discussion.

 

[bluepeter]

The reason your "new" government is struggling to keep up a respectable level of health-care in the country, is, as Matt succintly described -- due to the system itself.

Nope. As I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread, the system functioned perfectly FOR DECADES with huge influxes of immigrants. In the last decade, we have had increasing problems with our government farting tax dollars out of their ass rather than putting them where they need to go. This does not only affect healthcare, it affects our education system, it affects our social programs, it affects our road systems, if affects everything. We just recently had a government scandal where it was discovered they pissed away over a billion dollars. That's just the tip of the iceberg and you don't think if that money was allocated correctly that our staffing levels would have increased and our wait times would decrease? We pay essentially the same in taxes we did 20 years ago and our population hasn't increased tenfold so do the fucking math.

It's akin to trying to package a pinto for a car race. It's futile, frustrating and involves just tacking on more and more expensive additions to try to make it faster.

See above.

wastefully throwing out taxpayer dollars and getting VERY LITTLE back for that dollar, is a disservice for every Canadian out there.

I know, I believe that's what I've said 15 times already.

Nothing like paying 15% sales tax and exoburent income taxes and still getting second-rate health-care compared to the US. Not bad compared to the rest of the world, but still second-rate.

It isn't 2nd rate to anybody. It isn't perfect as I've said 20 times. I reiterate again, we pay the same taxes we pay now that we paid 20 years ago and our system then was IMO, one of if not the best around.

You'd be surprised at how well a free market, profit-driven, capitalist industry can result in efficiency and advances that beforehand, was unheard of. Ask any government agency that decided to "outsource" certain elements of their department to the private industry and all the benefits they got out of it. Which of course, speaks volumes of the INEFFICIENCY of government workers as well. But that's another discussion.

I believe government inefficiency is something I have mentioned a few times on here.....can't remember exactly where.

I would not be surprised how it works because I have lived in the US and have family that lives there.

In terms of government agencies privatizing services, I've seen this happen many times and sometimes benefits are derived from it but many other times, the cost of that service goes through the roof.

 

[bluepeter]

As an example to you Razor, residents of Toronto paid 9 billion more in taxes to our federal government last year than we got back in services. How's that for a bunch of shit? How do you think that money would have served to fix some of the problems I have outlined?

 

[Razorguns]

> I reiterate again, we pay the same taxes we pay now that we paid 20 years ago

The fact that such a grossly incorrect statement is being passed around like fact in your argument, is beyond amazement.

Care to back that statement up with facts?

You still seem to be clutching to your "let's blame the politicians" agenda. You sure you aren't American? In that case -- i can only refer you back to Matt's well though-out and definatively explained explanation above. No sense in me re-iterating the same logic in pretty much the same words.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Nope. As I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread, the system functioned perfectly FOR DECADES with huge influxes of immigrants. In the last decade, we have had increasing problems with our government farting tax dollars out of their ass rather than putting them where they need to go.

You've just hit the core of the problem of socialization; there is no free market to determine where the dollars need to go.

The heart of capitalism is that money flows where returns are greatest. Therefore, inefficiencies in the system are corrected as money seeks the highest return. Inefficiency produces a lower return than efficiency, every time.

This is why a true free healthcare market is the only way to reduce costs as low as they can go to everyone.

Will everyone be able to afford them? No. Never. Capitalism is not idealism, idealism has no place in this world when setting policy. However, when prices are set by the free market, they are as low as they can possibly be without decreasing quality.

This should be any government's aim.

I really appreciate all of your posts on this thread bluepeter.

 

[bluepeter]

> I reiterate again, we pay the same taxes we pay now that we paid 20 years ago

The fact that such a grossly incorrect statement is being passed around like fact in your argument, is beyond amazement.

Care to back that statement up with facts?

You still seem to be clutching to your "let's blame the politicians" agenda. You sure you aren't American? In that case -- i can only refer you back to Matt's well though-out and definatively explained explanation above. No sense in me re-iterating the same logic in pretty much the same words.

How can I not blame the politicians when I see them not returing my tax dollars in services? How can I not blame them when the result of that is healthcare cuts, education cuts, deteriorating roads etc.? The evidence is all around me and I actually live here.

In terms of how much I pay in taxes, I'm sorry if you apparently know my paycheque better than I.

 

[Razorguns]

How can I not blame the politicians when I see them not returing my tax dollars in services? How can I not blame them when the result of that is healthcare cuts, education cuts, deteriorating roads etc.? The evidence is all around me and I actually live here.

You *should* blame them. It *IS* their job to ensure PROPER healthcare to all, and ensure it is of the HIGHEST quality possible. That's what they're paid for.

But what the real issue is just HOW to go about getting it. Having the government sticking their hand and controlling an industry which, in all other industries in the free world, a free market capitalist run design -- places undue limitations in almost every sector of that industry. All of which results in inadequecies, inefficiencies, lack of investment capital and gross misuse of funds. Systematic dysfunctions, which as you have described, are pretty well-documented.

The knee-jerk reaction is of course throw more money at it, lay off people, hire people, etc. But the simpleton's band-aid solution isn't the *best* solution. The problem goes deeper than that. Understanding the root of the problem is the *key* to fixing it.

 

[bluepeter]

You've just hit the core of the problem of socialization; there is no free market to determine where the dollars need to go.

The heart of capitalism is that money flows where returns are greatest. Therefore, inefficiencies in the system are corrected as money seeks the highest return. Inefficiency produces a lower return than efficiency, every time.

This is why a true free healthcare market is the only way to reduce costs as low as they can go to everyone.

Will everyone be able to afford them? No. Never. Capitalism is not idealism, idealism has no place in this world when setting policy. However, when prices are set by the free market, they are as low as they can possibly be without decreasing quality.

This should be any government's aim.

I really appreciate all of your posts on this thread bluepeter.

You must spread some karma around before giving it to MattTheSkywalker again