INSULIN conclusions

[Nelson Montana]

Wrong again HighIntensity.

Although the metabolites od Deca are detectable for months, the anabolic effects last for only a few weeks. If you were to take a single 600mgs shot of Deca do you think you'd still be making gains from it a month later? Get real.

Look man, you're just trying to discredit me because I'm making you see how insulin use is dumb and you don't want to face that fact.

But hey, maybe insulin use is the greatest thing in the world! To each his own.

 

[HighIntensity]

Wrong again HighIntensity.


Look man, you're just trying to discredit me because I'm making you see how insulin use is dumb and you don't want to face that fact.

I am not trying to discredit you, you already did this nicely yourself.

BTW Steriods are not class 2, they are class 3.

 

[TPH]

Nelson - your information has been an interesting read. Earlier in this thread you said that pancreas damage from insulin use is a "no brainer". Since I am currently using insulin this concerns me.

I ran the issue by a very knowledgable and respected former member of this Board, and he responded with the below:

"In type 2 diabetes peripheral insulin resistance causes the pancreatic beta cells to overcompensate and produce more and more insulin, leading to eventual beta cell destruction in a way that is not well understood. It could be from sustained high levels of insulin, or sustained hyperglycemia, or some other process leading to beta cell burnout. Hyperinsulinemia also eventually leads to defects in the peripheral insulin receptor signalling process.

Will these happen during a 'slin cycle lasting a few weeks? I don't know but I am skeptical because it takes many years of sustained hyperinsulinemia in type 2 diabetics for this to occur. I have done a number of 'slin cycles over the years and my glucose tolerance is normal. I am not dismissing the possibility of it happening, but I think it is unlikely. "

This seems sensible... so how is pancreas damage a non-brainer?

 

[LivinLarger]

Wow, lots of mixed opinions on this one.
I am an idiot as I am using slin now with my current cycle (conservatively).

I have to differ with the statement that slin may not put on muscle weight as I have a whole list of personal bests from training the last 3 wks since using slin for the first time.

I do believe that slin is one of the reasons that todays pro's would drawf the pro's of the 70's/80's or even 90's.

I agree it's a risk/reward situation, all of us make that choice every day in this game.

 

[Frackal]

Nelson I think the point is that such glaring errors in your article bring up questions about your knowledge elsewhere....The point about the deca was not whether the anabolic effects woudl be present, but that you would be shutting your system regardless with these nandrolone injections which would kind of defeat the purpose of a short cycle, especially since you're trying to keep your cycle down to 3 weeks, but injecting deca in the middle of week 2, well....

With the tren thing, I would assume anyone with the right knowledge would know that tren is androgenic.

And I was surprised that you did not know what schedule steroids were in, them being C-III unless they were C-II back in '97 but I doubt it.

Nelson I respect your efforts to state your opinion about something you feel to be dangerous, but what we need are true facts, just as if we were talking about steroids.... and its hard to buy your comment about pancreatic damage or shutdown if all you have to offer to support it is 'common sense.'

 

[Fonz]

Nelson - your information has been an interesting read. Earlier in this thread you said that pancreas damage from insulin use is a "no brainer". Since I am currently using insulin this concerns me.

I ran the issue by a very knowledgable and respected former member of this Board, and he responded with the below:

"In type 2 diabetes peripheral insulin resistance causes the pancreatic beta cells to overcompensate and produce more and more insulin, leading to eventual beta cell destruction in a way that is not well understood. It could be from sustained high levels of insulin, or sustained hyperglycemia, or some other process leading to beta cell burnout. Hyperinsulinemia also eventually leads to defects in the peripheral insulin receptor signalling process.

Will these happen during a 'slin cycle lasting a few weeks? I don't know but I am skeptical because it takes many years of sustained hyperinsulinemia in type 2 diabetics for this to occur. I have done a number of 'slin cycles over the years and my glucose tolerance is normal. I am not dismissing the possibility of it happening, but I think it is unlikely. "

This seems sensible... so how is pancreas damage a non-brainer?

Its sustained use that will damage the Pancreas.

And its probably due to hyperglycaemia more than hyperinsulanemia.

2 6 week insulin cycles/year is what I'm advocating as a safe
dosaging pattern.

Might seem overly safe, but remember that there are no long term studies done on healthy insulin using adult subjects.

And HI, The Scheduling of AAS is kind of a minor error.
Its not like that puts all his knowledge of AAS at fault.

Fonz

 

[Nelson Montana]

I think TPH's post and Fonz's comments explain this in more scientific terms than I can. Although I agree with both statements.

This is the thing. People often tend to base their personal opinion not so much on logic, but the dogma of the most "scientificly knowledgable." Which is fine, but it can also lead to disaster for several reasons. Sometimes the science is flawed. Sometimes the scientist has an ulterior motive. Sometimes the scientist is knowledgable in one area and ignorent in another or he or she just flat out gives bad advice.

There is more than enough evidence to prove the dangers of insulin. Will a couple of light cycles a year make a difference? Who knows? Maybe not right away. The point is, it is an unnecessary risk in my opinion.
And as Fonz pointed out, there's too little research to know for sure. We MUST use our intellect and reason to make decisions. The lack of research does not mean it isn't unsafe!

If my statements are to be dismissed because I've made some inaccuacies in the past, then EVERYONE'S statements must be dismissed -- unless it's someone who hasn't been known to the public yet. And soon enough, he'll be wrong about something. Nobody is always right. But whatever technical innacuries I may have reported in the past, the basic advice was sound, and I stand by it.

Hell, Patrick Arnold has made a slew of rotten products and people praise him like he's a genius!

Scheduled II Scheduled III. You get the idea. Actually, this varies from state to state.

You know, the same argument can be made for diuretics. Lots of guys have used it with no problems. But mess up, and you mess up big time -- maybe the last time. If you think something is worth the chance, be my guest.
Just remember, all the arguing in the world won't mean a thing if ou wind up in a hospital bed. But hey, I bet the fact that your bench went up another 25 pounds will make it all worth while.

The writng, as they say, is on the wall.

 

[Athernigy]

I think TPH's post and Fonz's comments explain this in more scientific terms than I can. Although I agree with both statements.

This is the thing. People often tend to base their personal opinion not so much on logic, but the dogma of the most "scientificly knowledgable." Which is fine, but it can also lead to disaster for several reasons. Sometimes the science is flawed. Sometimes the scientist has an ulterior motive. Sometimes the scientist is knowledgable in one area and ignorent in another or he or she just flat out gives bad advice.

There is more than enough evidence to prove the dangers of insulin. Will a couple of light cycles a year make a difference? Who knows? Maybe not right away. The point is, it is an unnecessary risk in my opinion.
And as Fonz pointed out, there's too little research to know for sure. We MUST use our intellect and reason to make decisions. The lack of research does not mean it isn't unsafe!

If my statements are to be dismissed because I've made some inaccuacies in the past, then EVERYONE'S statements must be dismissed -- unless it's someone who hasn't been known to the public yet. And soon enough, he'll be wrong about something. Nobody is always right. But whatever technical innacuries I may have reported in the past, the basic advice was sound, and I stand by it.

Hell, Patrick Arnold has made a slew of rotten products and people praise him like he's a genius!

Scheduled II Scheduled III. You get the idea. Actually, this varies from state to state.

You know, the same argument can be made for diuretics. Lots of guys have used it with no problems. But mess up, and you mess up big time -- maybe the last time. If you think something is worth the chance, be my guest.
Just remember, all the arguing in the world won't mean a thing if ou wind up in a hospital bed. But hey, I bet the fact that your bench went up another 25 pounds will make it all worth while.

The writng, as they say, is on the wall.

You just keep saying it's bad and expect us to believe it without ANY proof. I have probably done more insulin than anyone on this board (or pretty much up there) and have yet to have a side effect. Please enlighten me with my future problems ...

-sk

 

[Frackal]

Good points Nelson, Fonz....my insulin dosage is going to be even more conservative, during my 9 week cycle I will be using it 3 on, 3 off, and thats it, 2wice a week, 2x a day on those days, 10ius max.

 

[LivinLarger]

But hey, I bet the fact that your bench went up another 25 pounds will make it all worth while

Could not have said it better myself!
Oh, we're you kidding?
LOL

I have to agree that it may very well cause damage if abused, but I will live with the chance that my 10Iu's 3xWK is going to hurt me permanately.
If I am wrong I am only hurting myself, and until there are studies performed that will either confirm of deny your beliefs I will continue to put myself in what I believe to be minimal risk.
Although Nelson I respect your opinion and the opinion of the other more knowledgable bropthers it is a personal choice and if it ends up biting me in the ass I will have no one to blame but myself.


LL