I will Not Marry the White WALES of the USA

[Caleb's Tree]

I hear what you are saying however, I have a very different point of view.

Eros - is a sexual love. That is not *true love*.
This is based on hormones, our biological need to reproduce and not much more.

Philos - is a non-sexual love. Love between parent/child, siblings, friends. This has nothing to do with hormones or reproduction but isn't the same feeling/drive that brings together life parners.

Agape - is the highest form of love. It is the love of all mankind. Think Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr, etc.

Since a couple is initially drawn to one another because of sex they don't commit because of love, they commit because of sex. Love is what happens along the way.

In my humble opinion: LIKE, RESPECT and COMMON LIFE GOALS are what couples should base their decision about who it is they should consider when choosing a life mate.

Men by virtue of their biology are very visual creatures. They are initially and very strongly attracted to a woman's beauty (whatever that definition of beauty might be).

Women by virtue of their biology are attracted to security. Even though initially brawn might stimulate their eyes because we no longer live in the bush LOL a SMART woman will pass over muscles for very large brains every single time.

But that is only what attracts the sexes initially it is NOT what keeps them paired.

How will a woman know if a man values her for more than her *look* and how will a man know if a woman values him for more than his *portfolio*? I believe that when one removes BOTH from the equation, they will be free to make better choices.

There is a bit more to it, all outlined in my book but that is the gist of it.

*TRUE LOVE* is not why couples marry. How can they when they haven't been through life together?

LOVE is what they find during their journey in life together. It isn't what brings them together.

I didn't know you were wiser than Aerostotle.

You are describing friendships of pleasure and friendships of utility. These are incomplete and flawed relationships, if that is the prime motivating factor for hooking up with someone. If, as you say a woman is attracted to a man's portfolio, then that indeed makes them very shallow, and as such, then most men knowing that a woman is looking for financial security as her primary drive (per your comments) to developing and maintaining relationships, should take steps to protect himself against the transferance of his hard earned wealth to that woman which seeks to get her greedy hands on it. Any man who is cognisant of this should by default take action which would protect himself from such wealth seeking individuals.

Likewise any man that enters into a relationship initially based on pleasure....."she is pleasing to the eyes" or sexual attraction is equally shallow. Attraction and Security are nothing more than different words for "utility" and "pleasure"

True Love also isn't defined by shared experiences. True Love is defined by virtue, and only two people with good virtue can experience True Love. One must be virtuous before they encounter "True Love" for without virtue, "True Love" cannot exist, nor can it be formed. Oh, pehaps weak facsimiles of it, counterfits, but counterfits fade, and facsimiles are just weak imitations of True Love.

This is what you are missing entirely. True Love is selfless, and only people with virtue can be selfless. Agape also is not purely love of mankind. Agape is selfless love. Altruistic Love. Agape Love can be directed towards individuals as well as groups of people. True Love is giving without expecting anything in return, but in order for that love to be reciprocated, one must have a mate, that is equally virtuous and selfless.

Agape Love.....and True Love based in Virtue, are pretty much synonomous with each other.

No greater Love hath a man than to lay down his life for his brother.
Love your wife as Christ Loved the church, and willingly laid his life down for her.

This is the essence of True Love. True Love springs first from one's virtue. It is a state of being. True Love (romantically) occurs when one person of virtue, has a relationship with another person of virtue.

In today's society, there are very few virtuous people, so seldom is any marriage or relationship based in "True Love" They are contractual agreements, that two parties agree to, because they see benefit in such a relationship. Because of this, one should protect one's assets, as Love based on Utility, or Pleasure, never lasts.

Pay attention here...you might learn something about love....and your next book, could end up being a best seller. Make sure to give me credit.

 

[Caleb's Tree]

BTW - American men who truly think that a *foreign* woman will leave her entire life behind to marry him for something other than security (read = green card AND money) are fooling themselves to the Nth degree. The fact is that she is fully aware that if he couldn't find an American woman that was *good enough for him* that REALLY MEANS THAT HE IS DEFECTIVE and not *good enough for her either*. She would only be with him as a means to justify an end, so that SHE could have a better life (economic opportunities) for herself and any children she has or may have. PERIOD... then she will leave your ass in the gutter that it was when she met you.

I was American born but am Eastern European raised. My family has left the United States to return to our country so don't even TRY to debate me. I know what I am talking about. There are exceptions to every rule, true. But in general - I AM SPOT ON.

True, these women were raised with different family/life values than MOST American women. But that does not translate to abandoning them for an American man because he is *so much better than ALL of the men in HER country*. Hell many times she can't even speak English. What ON EARTH could she find soooooo appealing in a man who does not share HER CULTURE, RELIGION, HISTORY AND LANGUAGE?!?!?!

Why don't you see German or French or Spanish or Australian Bride dating sites? Hell the Aussies can speak English so you would think they would be immigrating to the US in droves... yet - THEY DON'T. Why do yall think THAT IS?!?!

DUH - It's because these women do not live in countries where their personal or their men's economic opportunities are so limited. Try and approach women from these countries and *offer them the chance of a lifetime to marry an American man*. The reaction would be for her to straight up LAUGH IN HIS FACE.

Please... yet these same men call American women gold-digging whores?!

HUH?

You have GOT to be kidding me.

You are wrong here again.

A Marriage is a contractual agreement with which two parties enter into for the mutual benefits that they may enjoy under that contract.

There is no difference then between marrying a foreign bride, and a domestic bride. Each party decides what they want in the relationship and what they will not tolerate. If a foreign bride has perceived or actual better "benefits" than a domestic bride, then that is a better contract for both parties, the bride, and her suitor. If the man chooses, a domestic bride, it is the same deal. He chose her, and she chose him based on a criteria which is mutually beneficial to both.

A man is not defective if he has a taste for women with a different cultural upbringing and set of values than an American woman. He sees those values as more appealing and for him it's a better deal. A deal worth entering into contractually.

If American Women are upset by this, and find themselves being cast aside, because they cannot compete with the benefits packages foreign brides sometimes offer those men which seek such things, I suggest that they ramp up their game and compete.

If you can't compete, then bitch about how men are flawed for trying to find happiness on a distant shore. It might make you feel better, but you'll have missed a chance at introspection. Missing that chance, and failing to look at one's self is a failure to be the best you, you can be.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

You got it all wrong BIKINI MOM. Hey, I read some of your posts, and like things you say, but on this account you are wrong.

They claim they are repulsed by gold-diggers yet all they could talk about is how to protect their assets as if THAT is all they had to offer a woman.

Prostitution is illegal in most states......correct?

And we can pretty much state that most of the times, love has nothing to do with money........correct?

But......what happens to most men.....is that they first "marry for love" and then later end up having to "pay for it."

Men are more than willing to take a chance on love, and most men don't really care how much a woman makes. What they do care about is being punished for taking that chance. Because the way this country punishes men for taking a chance on love, a prudent man is forced to consider things like prenups etc., especially if that man has been burnt by love before.

Men don't think in terms of "money is all I have to offer her" You are totally wrong on that. Men want love more than anything, but they don't want to be financially devastated for taking a chance on love, a chance that I might add should have nothing to do with money either before or after that chance is taken.

If you take a "chance on love," and have to "pay for it" later, then it's no different than prostitution. Prostitution should be legalized then so that some men can relieve their biological needs, and pay up front and be done with it, rather then paying a much larger bill at the end.

Love was explained to me by a man of 89. He said when I met my wife 67 years ago I thought I was in love. I was so wrong.

I started loving my wife on our 50th wedding anniversary. I looked at her frail body and thought I love that woman. Before that we were just companions through thick and thin. I finally found what love was. She took care of me when I was sick, put up with me when I was an ass, mothered our 5 children, held my hand when my oldest son was buried and wiped my tears when I call his name. She watch me succeed and watched me fail and still stood by my side.

The moral is, we don't know love when we first meet we find love after the lust wears off.

I love my wife more than I can say, she puts up with my shit and has watch me fail and watched me succeed. Puts up with my shit and helps me when I most need it, I found love after 2 years, at first it was like, lust and respect and then it grew into love.

All these "Finding love" stuff is not correct, love comes after and it can't be found it has to grow.



So all yo

 

[Bikini Mod]

You are wrong here again.

A Marriage is a contractual agreement with which two parties enter into for the mutual benefits that they may enjoy under that contract.

There is no difference then between marrying a foreign bride, and a domestic bride. Each party decides what they want in the relationship and what they will not tolerate. If a foreign bride has perceived or actual better "benefits" than a domestic bride, then that is a better contract for both parties, the bride, and her suitor. If the man chooses, a domestic bride, it is the same deal. He chose her, and she chose him based on a criteria which is mutually beneficial to both.

A man is not defective if he has a taste for women with a different cultural upbringing and set of values than an American woman. He sees those values as more appealing and for him it's a better deal. A deal worth entering into contractually.

If American Women are upset by this, and find themselves being cast aside, because they cannot compete with the benefits packages foreign brides sometimes offer those men which seek such things, I suggest that they ramp up their game and compete.

If you can't compete, then bitch about how men are flawed for trying to find happiness on a distant shore. It might make you feel better, but you'll have missed a chance at introspection. Missing that chance, and failing to look at one's self is a failure to be the best you, you can be.

I am not bitching about anything as I would have never married an American man either. I did that the first go round and boy did I get EXACTLY the opposite of what was desirable (and no, I am not talking about him being the scurge of the earth as there are plenty of Magyar men that fit that bill quite nicely). I am talking about every desirable characteristic that a European man (or American man who is well-traveled and has an uncommonly strong sense of self, his view of the world and his place in it that can only come from shedding the typical "the US is the center of the universe and every place else pails in comparison" mentality). My first husband was a typical American male. He might have been highly desirable for a typical American female (were he not a loser in all other regards) but was ultimately NOT desirable for a woman like myself. My last husband though born in America is hardly the typical American male. He has lived on nearly every continent.

These American men (the ones who go on and on downing the typical American female, when they themselves are *the typical American male*) have an over inflated sense of self-importance thinking that these foreign women *seem* to prefer them for love. Hence, their most obvious defect.

So now for a *typical American male* to think that he is desirable to a foreign female by virtue of his economic desirability but then to reject the *typical American female* because she is a *gold-digging whore* is pretty silly. Don't you agree?

 

[Bikini Mod]

The moral is, we don't know love when we first meet we find love after the lust wears off.

You know, I didn't lust my husband until much later in our marriage, and the love didn't come till even after that. And HE KNOWS I didn't marry him for his money... 'cause he didn't have none when I married him.

I married my husband because of how he treated me. <--- THAT was the deciding factor.

I knew he was smart, charismatic, rapier wit, well-mannered, cultured, driven, kind and had a strength of character that is unmatched. But I married him because he treated me like I was the only woman alive. He believed me even though my story was insane. And he fought MY FIGHTS even though he had nothing to do with the situations that caused those battles. You wanna talk knight in shining armour?

If ya'll only knew.

And why did he fight so hard and for so long? Dunno exactly to be honest, I think he's nuts and just loves a challenge. LOL

In the end I truly believe that once money and sex are removed from the equation people are forced to look at why else they would give up their precious time getting to know another.

ALL the men I dated made a lot of money. So then why would I choose *this one* in particular?

Conversely for a man to date ONLY women that he finds very physically appealing, why would he choose *that one*?

When the sexes feel the need to pretend with one another that only wastes precious time.

 

[Caleb's Tree]

I am not bitching about anything as I would have never married an American man either. I did that the first go round and boy did I get EXACTLY the opposite of what was desirable (and no, I am not talking about him being the scurge of the earth as there are plenty of Magyar men that fit that bill quite nicely). I am talking about every desirable characteristic that a European man (or American man who is well-traveled and has an uncommonly strong sense of self, his view of the world and his place in it that can only come from shedding the typical "the US is the center of the universe and every place else pails in comparison" mentality). My first husband was a typical American male. He might have been highly desirable for a typical American female (were he not a loser in all other regards) but was ultimately NOT desirable for a woman like myself. My last husband though born in America is hardly the typical American male. He has lived on nearly every continent.

These American men (the ones who go on and on downing the typical American female, when they themselves are *the typical American male*) have an over inflated sense of self-importance thinking that these foreign women *seem* to prefer them for love. Hence, their most obvious defect.

So now for a *typical American male* to think that he is desirable to a foreign female by virtue of his economic desirability but then to reject the *typical American female* because she is a *gold-digging whore* is pretty silly. Don't you agree?

You rail against men that want to marry foreign brides, and claim they have some sort of defect. I think I want that defect then. Marriages to Foreign Brides only have a 20% divorce rate. Most of these marriages 80% are sucessful and the participants both husband and wife report on the whole they are happy.

Domestic Marriages in the US on the other hand have a 52% and climbing failure rate. The majority of these marriages fail, and the majority of the participants in these marriages report that they are unsatisfied with their marrage.

If having an 80% chance of having a sucessful marriage is a defect, then I'd gladly be defective. I'm not one who'd marry a foreign bride, but I am not going to be so arrogant, pompous and uninformed to claim that men who want to marry foreign brides, are defective.

That's a biased statement with no basis in fact.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

You rail against men that want to marry foreign brides, and claim they have some sort of defect. I think I want that defect then. Marriages to Foreign Brides only have a 20% divorce rate. Most of these marriages 80% are sucessful and the participants both husband and wife report on the whole they are happy.

Domestic Marriges in the US on the other hand have a 52% and climbing failure. That majority of these marriages fail, and the majority of the participants in these marriages report that they are unsatisfied with their marrage.

If having an 80% chance of having a sucessful marriage is a defect, then I'd gladly be defective. I'm not one who'd marry a foreign bride, but I am not going to be so arrogant, pompous and uninformed to claim that men who want to marry foreign brides, are defective.

That's a biased statement with no basis in fact.

We agreed that foreign women were the choice. All of my reiends that married women from Russia, Ukraine are married after 15yrs and the ones that were married 5 yrs ago are happy still and looks like they will continue.

American men think they are "IT" but most are self centered assturds.

I married an American, but she has European upbringing and thought process. Otherwise if I were to marry I would be in Russia,Ukraine or Belarus.

The fact is that those that feel a foreign bride is defective are small minded and don't realize that anyone that is in the US is foreign unless they are Native American, sadly like the Indians here a long process of "Americanization" occured where Americans have no clue about the outside world.

 

[Bikini Mod]

You rail against men that want to marry foreign brides, and claim they have some sort of defect. I think I want that defect then. Marriages to Foreign Brides only have a 20% divorce rate. Most of these marriages 80% are sucessful and the participants both husband and wife report on the whole they are happy.

Domestic Marriages in the US on the other hand have a 52% and climbing failure. The majority of these marriages fail, and the majority of the participants in these marriages report that they are unsatisfied with their marrage.

If having an 80% chance of having a sucessful marriage is a defect, then I'd gladly be defective. I'm not one who'd marry a foreign bride, but I am not going to be so arrogant, pompous and uninformed to claim that men who want to marry foreign brides, are defective.

That's a biased statement with no basis in fact.

Any many who claims to reject all the women in his country because they are "gold-digging whores" but then seeks a wife outside of his country based on the fact that she would only leave her entire life behind based on what he can offer her materially is DEFECTIVE. That is not an arrogant claim but rather, a logical conclusion based on HIS behavior.

What does a *typical* American man know about culture, traditions and family values (that are NOT typically American) as he lackes them AS WELL??!!

It is all about HIS money and THE FACT that this guy THINKS he can *buy* a hot, subserviant version of A MOTHER... and not someone who wants a life PARTNER. The joke is on that man though, as the majority of foreign brides are more cunning and deceptive than he could have EVER imagined.

Why don't you EVER hear these guys talking about Japanese, German, Australian, French, Spanish mail order brides. Why?

IT IS BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST.

I know of many MANY mail order bride situations where the guy got scammed hands down. I also know of many foreign women personally who are just lying there waiting for the next poor American shmuck who is waiting for her with his jugular exposed. It is a running joke with the women AND men in those countries.

You began expressing your point of view by saying that THE ONLY way that a man can protect his assets is to marry laterally (in regards to finances) or for him to marry up. And now you claim that the opposite it true with overwhelming statistics that do NOT support you original arguement.

So which is it then?

I am confused.

You can't use arguements from opposite ends of the same continuum and hope to sound logical. Can you?

 

[Bikini Mod]

Oh and for the record, I could care less who these sillies marry. It does not offend me in the least as:

1. I am merely American by birth and not upbringing.

2. I am hardly a whale.

 

[Caleb's Tree]

Any many who claims to reject all the women in his country because they are "gold-digging whores" but then seeks a wife outside of his country based on the fact that she would only leave her entire life behind based on what he can offer her materially is DEFECTIVE. That is not an arrogant claim but rather, a logical conclusion based on HIS behavior.

What does a *typical* American man know about culture, traditions and family values (that are NOT typically American) as he lackes them AS WELL??!!

It is all about HIS money and THE FACT that this guy THINKS he can *buy* a hot, subserviant version of A MOTHER... and not someone who wants a life PARTNER. The joke is on that man though, as the majority of foreign brides are more cunning and deceptive than he could have EVER imagined.

Why don't you EVER hear these guys talking about Japanese, German, Australian, French, Spanish mail order brides. Why?

IT IS BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST.

I know of many MANY mail order bride situations where the guy got scammed hands down. I also know of many foreign women personally who are just lying there waiting for the next poor American shmuck who is waiting for her with his jugular exposed. It is a running joke with the women AND men in those countries.

You began expressing your point of view by saying that THE ONLY way that a man can protect his assets is to marry laterally (in regards to finances) or for him to marry up. And now you claim that the opposite it true with overwhelming statistics that do NOT support you original arguement.

So which is it then?

I am confused.

You can't use arguements from opposite ends of the same continuum and hope to sound logical. Can you?

You are confused and rightly so, because you are overmatched in this debate. They are two seperate arguments which you are confusing with each other. One argument addressed contractual marriage, and marrying an equal. The equal has to either be equal in wealth for a contractual marriage or equal in virtue for a marriage borne of love. The argument about contractual marriage was to either A: marry an equal, or B: contractually ensure that greed isn't the primary motivating factor in the marriage and sign a prenup.

I think you have a personal problem with this. Did someone pass you over for a mail order bride at one time? Or are you just a fanatical women's liber, who can't possibly understand that some women are perfectly happy raising a family, and caring for a home and their man. You seem to have a great deal of pent up hostility against this phenomena. I'd like to know why.

You really don't know what you are talking about either, and most of your claims are bogus. You are all opinion, and you don't back any of your claims up with any facts. If you want to be intellectually dishonest to attempt to win a debate go ahead, but don't be shocked when you are called on it.

Why don't you EVER hear these guys talking about Japanese, German, Australian, French, Spanish mail order brides. Why?

IT IS BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST.

http://www.ajapaneseprincess.com/
http://www.bridesagency.com/german-brides.html
http://www.1000mailorderbrides.com/Australian_mail_order_brides/
http://www.1000mailorderbrides.com/French_mail_order_brides/
http://www.latin-wife.com/photo_profile.asp

Anyways, if you did 30 seconds of research to back up any of your foolish claims you wouldn't have made them. I hope your books aren't this poorly researched. There are mail order brides for every nationality and just about any country you'd want.

The reason some men choose to go the mail order bride route isn't because they are defective, they see American women and their bitchy, domineering attitudes as defective, and they want someone raised up in a culture that still practices respect and honor, in a culture that still values home life as the most important contribution to a society.

You talk to a Russian woman for instance, and they'll tell you how they love children, gardening, cooking and taking care of a house, and loving her man.

An American woman, talks about clothes, jewelry, credit cards, expensive toys, and sports cars, and leaving her man when she is bored with him, or he falls on hard times.

It's nothing more than a lifestyle choice, and for these men that choose mail order brides, they are choosing to try to find someone that isn't tainted by American Greed, Arrogance, Selfishness, and a LACK OF VIRTUE.

You readily admit Americans, women and men have this flaw, yet chastise men for recognizing this, and choosing to look elsewhere to avoid this problem.

Of course, that somehow is offensive to you. Maybe its because you value clothes, jewelry, credit cards, expensive toys, and sports cars more than you do raising a family and keeping a good happy home.