How OFTEN do you SWITCH EXERCISES?

[Nelson Montana]

Okay Debasser; Get ready to be enlightened.

The guy in that example was not a hardgainer. Being skinny at 18 years old means nothing. EVERYBODY fills out in the post teen years. And since he never trained before, there's no way of knowing hw well he would have responded. This is the problem with so many of these examples provided as "proof." Everybody's a 98 pound weakling once.

I was 145 pounds at age 36!
Well past my "formitive years" I put on 25 pounds of muscle witout ever seeing a steroid. And this was after a lifetime of training. So yes, I believe my example is more powerful and more applicable to adult trainers.

I will also reiterate, that I agree with a lot of Stu's methods. In fact, I wrote a review of "Beyond Brawn" and called it "one of the best books on the market." But even though he uses the term "hardgainer" his approach is a little too "one size fits all" for me. He's also a little closed in regard to steroid use, calling those who partake "cheaters." I don't want to slam Stu. He's one of the good guys. (And there are plenty of scum out there.) I just disagree with him on this issue. I believe my methods are better for hardgainers and I practice what I preach. The thousands of people who respond to my methods are proof as well. But if another method works for you, great.

 

[Debaser]

You were at that weight because you didn't know how to train correctly. That was one example but Stuart has listed other examples of guys that did 5-10 years of conventional training and gained little or nothing (sounds like your definition I suppose), then once switched to hardgainer style training they made gains unfathomable to them (drug free to boot).

Iron Addict never got past 180 lbs at 6'1" after 10 years of conventional training. After learning these methods (he's published a few articles since then and written so much on the subject of training and personally trained so many that I consider him an online guru), he too made the gains of his life. He made 235 drug free, 270 juiced.

 

[Realgains]

STUART MCROBERT....advocates proper training for THE NON STEROID USING TYPICAL MAN. He did not invent anything new at all but ia a TRUMPET on the subject of proper steroid free training.

He built his body from nothing with very shitty genetics to pretty decent with a true 300 plus bench 400 plus rock bottom squat and 500 plus deadlift WITHOUT TOUCHING ROIDS.

Stuart IS NOT that rigid when it comes to what he considers correct training as he talks about variations and finding out what works best for you. BUT ...he is smart enough and has the guts to say BULLSHIT to the glossy magazines that promote BS for the average steroid free trainee.

The fact is that very few men can train intensly with weights steroid free more than three days per week without over training.

NELSON MONTANA....did I hear you right?....You think that McRobert doesn't want to admit that there are hard hainers and that he doesn't want to bother with them...WHAT!..MCROBERT calls himself a "hard gainer" and has a magazine called "Hard Gainer" ALL his advice is directed toward hard gainers. He believes that a very high percentage of men out there(MOST) are hard gainers.

Tell me you were talking about someone else.

I respect the guy for not using gear...and in a way Nelson he is right, we are cheaters for using steroids.

When I am not using roids I train very much along the lines that McRobert advocates. Even with roids I often only train three days per week and with a low volume of working sets and with mainly the big basic exercises....and I am no hard gainer. The most you will ever see me in the gym is every other day on a three way split but with two off days after every 4-6 workouts....this is too much frequency even for me, and my stout genetics, while off roids.

One of the lost secrets of the old timers(pre roids) that McRobert advocates is MICRO LOADING, that is using progressively heavier weights in tiny increments over months of training to trick the natural body into gains. I have even used this method while on roids with great success. See my sticky post on the womens forum on proper steroid free training for a detailed explaination of micro loading.

Too bad that proper training has been lost for the most part due to all the BS in the glossy mags. The people in the mags are genetic freaks on a ton of gear...shit they can train any way they want and achieve that level of developement.

Man do I miss the old "IRONMAN MAGAZINE" that was put out by the late great Peary Rader...it was full of great stuff for the non steroid using and typical man.


www.hardgainer.com


RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Okay let me set the record straight here.

First of all, who are (Non pro-ball) steroid users cheating against? Is drinking coffee, cheating? Against who? What? I think that's a puesdo-morality issue, and one that McRoberts or anyone else has no right to make.

Now, on to the training style.

In a nutshell...

SM essentially recommends heavy intense, brief training with progressively heavier weights as do I. It can take an "average" person and turn them into something extrodinary.

BUT...

Not everyone responds well to that type of training. So although it must be a PART of everyones training protical, it isn't the optimum way to train for many people, especially in an exclusive manner. There are many reasons for this. (as mentioned in a previoious post) Also, for the older athlete or anyone who has been injured, ths type of training simply is not practical.

This line of thinking is a little too much like the myopic "Mike Menzter" approach, which is the cause of more injuries than an other training method. So if you survive not getting injured...great! You're a testement to the program. But if you get injured...well, then you have to stop and there's no way of knowing.

Get it?

 

[Zoomster]

WTF? The girl only asked about hamstrings.

Egomaniacal responses.

 

[Realgains]

Okay let me set the record straight here.

First of all, who are (Non pro-ball) steroid users cheating against? Is drinking coffee, cheating? Against who? What? I think that's a puesdo-morality issue, and one that McRoberts or anyone else has no right to make.

Now, on to the training style.

In a nutshell...

SM essentially recommends heavy intense, brief training with progressively heavier weights as do I. It can take an "average" person and turn them into something extrodinary.

BUT...

Not everyone responds well to that type of training. So although it must be a PART of everyones training protical, it isn't the optimum way to train for many people, especially in an exclusive manner. There are many reasons for this. (as mentioned in a previoious post) Also, for the older athlete or anyone who has been injured, ths type of training simply is not practical.

This line of thinking is a little too much like the myopic "Mike Menzter" approach, which is the cause of more injuries than an other training method. So if you survive not getting injured...great! You're a testement to the program. But if you get injured...well, then you have to stop and there's no way of knowing.

Get it?

Come on Nelson ...in a way roids use is cheating bro....but who really cares...I don't.

IMHO the only way to train for the average man is very strickly and well warned up to avoid injury, infrequently, low volume, and with a decent amount of intensity on the big basic exercises especially the squat and deadlifts. Pumping/isolation exercises will do little to nothing for most men.

There is no need to kill yourself in the gym with forced reps and the like as this is counter productive for most non roid users...but who really trains hard on the squat and deadlifts in your gym bro's...ALMOST NOBODY SQUATS or does DEADLIFTS of any kind let alone do them correctly and with enough intensity.


You need to train as heavy as you can most of the time, except early on in a training cycle, but it must be done very strickly and controlled.

Progressively increasing weights used in small to tiny jumps is also needed because it is difficult to gauge the stess given to a muscle effectively over a long period of time without doing this.

The average man needs to train for STRENGTH and size will come along...get that squat up to 400 for ten deep reps and you are going to have good legs.

Steroid users can train for FEEL if they wish, or for the feeling of stress on a muscle, and they will grow well and get strong as a result BUT non steroid users need to focus on strength most of the time and then size will come along well.

But I think it should be everyone goal, both non steroid user and steroid user, to add weight to the bars progressively and in small jumps...this is the best way see good mass gains IMHO.

RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Zoomster: It's a discussion board bro.

RG: I agree with much of what you say but you're missing one very important point.

Intensity is not gauged by weight alone.

I can show you a way of doing squats with HALF the weight you normally use ad you'll be dying after 3 sets. And your legs will grow.

Working just to increase weight isn't always wise. Everyone plateaus after a while -- which brings us back to the original pont. You need to mix things up in order to get the greatest muscle building effect.

 

[Zoomster]

Ok Nelson, I deserved that one.

So lets discuss.

Much like a lot of you I have trained naturally most of my life. I am not a hardgainer, again, I am not a hardgainer.

I agree with a lot that has been stated here between you and RG.

RG, I do not believe that most people overtrain @ three days per week of intense training. I never could get the gains that I needed on less than 5 days per week. I actually do not like days off. I have tried almost every training (natural system) out there.

Anyway, I agree with Nelson when he says that intensity is not defined but increases in weight alone.

Intensity is defined many ways..

Additional Reps
Speed of the reps
partial reps
negatives
supersets
Tri sets
High reps
Get the workout done in 20 less minutes.

There are many ways to shock the muscle into growth.

Consistency is the key.

 

[Realgains]

Zoomster: It's a discussion board bro.

RG: I agree with much of what you say but you're missing one very important point.

Intensity is not gauged by weight alone.

I can show you a way of doing squats with HALF the weight you normally use ad you'll be dying after 3 sets. And your legs will grow.

Working just to increase weight isn't always wise. Everyone plateaus after a while -- which brings us back to the original pont. You need to mix things up in order to get the greatest muscle building effect.

I agree Nelson...for sure intensity isn't gauged by weight alone.

However, I think making the focus on progressive poundages used in good form, weight as the focus and not intensity as the focus, is better than intensity as a focus ...Too many focus too much on intensity and end up using roughly the same weights year after year and don't get much larger. This is because they use too much intensity and do not allow for adaptation.

ALSO, It is hard to judge progressive intensity over the weeks without increasing weights used.

Yes you can plateau, everyone always does no matter how they train, and thats why you train in cycles and purposely NOT training intensely early on in a cycle.

IMHO plateaus come more often if you ave an "intensity focus" as opposed to a weight progression focus.

Yes variation is important....thus training in cycles which varies intensity, changing up the exercises used while still keeping mainly to the compound movements, using different rep ranges etc . BUT I still think the focus needs to be more on progressive poundages used in good form on the big compound movements.

I think we are saying much the same Nelson....but I am a little more focused on progressive poundages than you may be.
I think a progressive poundage mindset is critical, especially for the natural trainee, but I don't think you do and thats okay with me.

Oh...by the way the method promoted by McRbert is quite a bit different than that promoted by Mentzer. Mentzer was intensity focused and not progressive poundage focused and he also did not believe in cycling training intensity.

I am not tooting my horn but I have trained as I discribe for 25 years...I got it from the old Iron Man magazine, as did McRobert.
At 40 years of age I can deep high bar squat 700 pounds, bench almost 450 and deadlift close to 800...and yes I am large and especially in the legs. Steroids did help but I don't think I would have gotten anywhere near my currect size and strength without training exactly like I have/did.




RG

 

[Debaser]

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