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smallmovesal
New member
i'm typical... i gain in the hips/thighs.
Do you put fat back on in the same places you took it off?
- Thread starter SteelWeaver
- Start date
circusgirl
New member
but what about us girls who have a male (apple-shaped) fat distribution to being with? I know that my breasts have shrunk quite a bit in the last 6 months, the rest of me hasn't...
circusgirl
circusgirl
Rather than me interpreting the science for you, here's something to show I don't just make this stuff up off the top of my head. It shows that there ARE premenopausal women with apple shaped fat distribution, but this is not the norm and they almost always have a different hormonal profile than pear shaped women:
Testosterone responses after resistance exercise in women: influence of regional fat distribution.
Regional fat distribution has been associated with metabolic derangements in populations with obesity. For example, upper body fat patterning is associated with higher levels of free testosterone and lower levels of sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). We sought to determine the extent to which this relationship was true in a healthy (i.e., non-obese) female population and whether regional fat distribution influenced androgen responses to resistance exercise. This study examined the effects of regional fat distribution on total testosterone, free testosterone, and SHBG responses to an acute resistance exercise test among 47 women. Regional fat distribution was characterized by 3 separate indices: waist-to-hip ratio, ratio of upper arm fat to mid-thigh fat assessed with magnetic resonance imaging (MRI ratio), and ratio of subscapular to triceps ratio (SB/TRi ratio). Skinfolds were measured for the triceps, chest, subscapular, mid-axillary, suprailaic, abdomen, and thigh regions. The acute resistance exercise test consisted of 6 sets of 10 RM squats separated by 2-min rest periods. Blood was obtained pre- and post- acute resistance exercise test. Total testosterone, free testosterone, and SHBG concentrations were determined by radioimmunoassay. Subjects were divided into tertiles from the indices of regional fat distribution, and statistical analyses were performed by an ANOVA with repeated measures (regional fat distribution and exercise as main effects). Significant increases following the acute resistance exercise test were observed for total testosterone (approximately 25%), free testosterone (approximately 25%), and SHBG (4%). With multiple regression analysis, anthropometric measures significantly predicted pre- concentrations of free testosterone, post-concentrations of total testosterone, and pre-concentrations of SHBG. The SB/TRi and MRI ratios were discriminant for hormonal concentrations among the tertiles. In young, healthy women, resistance exercise can induce transient increases in testosterone, and anthropometric markers of adiposity correlate with testosterone concentrations.
Testosterone responses after resistance exercise in women: influence of regional fat distribution.
Regional fat distribution has been associated with metabolic derangements in populations with obesity. For example, upper body fat patterning is associated with higher levels of free testosterone and lower levels of sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). We sought to determine the extent to which this relationship was true in a healthy (i.e., non-obese) female population and whether regional fat distribution influenced androgen responses to resistance exercise. This study examined the effects of regional fat distribution on total testosterone, free testosterone, and SHBG responses to an acute resistance exercise test among 47 women. Regional fat distribution was characterized by 3 separate indices: waist-to-hip ratio, ratio of upper arm fat to mid-thigh fat assessed with magnetic resonance imaging (MRI ratio), and ratio of subscapular to triceps ratio (SB/TRi ratio). Skinfolds were measured for the triceps, chest, subscapular, mid-axillary, suprailaic, abdomen, and thigh regions. The acute resistance exercise test consisted of 6 sets of 10 RM squats separated by 2-min rest periods. Blood was obtained pre- and post- acute resistance exercise test. Total testosterone, free testosterone, and SHBG concentrations were determined by radioimmunoassay. Subjects were divided into tertiles from the indices of regional fat distribution, and statistical analyses were performed by an ANOVA with repeated measures (regional fat distribution and exercise as main effects). Significant increases following the acute resistance exercise test were observed for total testosterone (approximately 25%), free testosterone (approximately 25%), and SHBG (4%). With multiple regression analysis, anthropometric measures significantly predicted pre- concentrations of free testosterone, post-concentrations of total testosterone, and pre-concentrations of SHBG. The SB/TRi and MRI ratios were discriminant for hormonal concentrations among the tertiles. In young, healthy women, resistance exercise can induce transient increases in testosterone, and anthropometric markers of adiposity correlate with testosterone concentrations.
SteelWeaver
New member
What's ANOVA?
I don't understand a lot of that, but I take it the last two sentences are saying that the findings are what the article started out saying: that differing hormonal levels correlate to body fat distribution patterns, and women with more upper body fat have higher testosterone levels? What comes first, the hormones or the body-fat distribution pattern?
And if that's the case (and I don't think anybody here thinks you make stuff up off the top of your head), my most pressing question is - will this naturally higher level of test help me build muscle faster???? And if I do have naturally higher levels of test, why is it so hard to keep fat off?
I don't understand a lot of that, but I take it the last two sentences are saying that the findings are what the article started out saying: that differing hormonal levels correlate to body fat distribution patterns, and women with more upper body fat have higher testosterone levels? What comes first, the hormones or the body-fat distribution pattern?
And if that's the case (and I don't think anybody here thinks you make stuff up off the top of your head), my most pressing question is - will this naturally higher level of test help me build muscle faster???? And if I do have naturally higher levels of test, why is it so hard to keep fat off?
ANOVA is a statistical mesure. (remembering this from my masters programme, might be wrong). It is a analysis of variance of a sample. Gives statistics that show the spread of a sample on a particular quality. (sorry Steel, do not know how in english to say this well).
If i understand rightly then the male pattern fat distribution does predict higher unbound T and lower SHBG. Means that possbly there is a reliable (repeatable) correlation from between the fat distribution and hormone levels.
Steel there are plenty of men with higher endogenous T who have rather high bf levels. A high T level does not mean you will naturally be quite lean. Very few of us are purely mesomorphic. Remember the endomorphic type? Gains muscle AND fat easily.
If you do have higher T then most women then it will certainly help you add muscle. Look how much you have already!!
If i understand rightly then the male pattern fat distribution does predict higher unbound T and lower SHBG. Means that possbly there is a reliable (repeatable) correlation from between the fat distribution and hormone levels.
Steel there are plenty of men with higher endogenous T who have rather high bf levels. A high T level does not mean you will naturally be quite lean. Very few of us are purely mesomorphic. Remember the endomorphic type? Gains muscle AND fat easily.
If you do have higher T then most women then it will certainly help you add muscle. Look how much you have already!!
circusgirl
New member
woohoo! this makes me happy. I am definitely apple-shaped. So this means I can gain muscle easily? That explains why my thighs and butt got more muscly doing lots of tkd when other people in my tkd class didn't notice the same effect.
What's interesting is high test is associated with aggressiveness and competitiveness as well yes? Coz I have both of these in spades, more than the average gal and as much as a guy.... I guess that would explain some things....
circusgirl
What's interesting is high test is associated with aggressiveness and competitiveness as well yes? Coz I have both of these in spades, more than the average gal and as much as a guy.... I guess that would explain some things....
circusgirl
B
BronzedGoddess
Guest
I carry all my fat in my abs and obliques (gross) my legs always stay pretty lean. Fat sucks no matter where its at (except for the tatas).
smoknjilly
New member
the grass is always greener....no matter how much I weigh, my midsection stays lean and the fat goes to my hips...grrrr...
Yes, higher test levels in pre-menopausal women are associated with increased muscle mass. Unfortunately (you can thank your ovaries for this) these same women are more prone to obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, PCOS and other fun things. So more muscle AND more fat, but you get to store your fat around your trunk instead of your thighs! I'm referring to naturally high test levels here. If you take a lot of AAS (especially non-aromatizable) then you can suppress endogenous estrogen enough to maintain a lean and muscular body. Otherwise you become a super she-he man with big boobs, stick legs and a beer belly LOL! OK, I'm painting worst case scenarios here, but the trend towards higher %bf in women with high test levels is very strong if they don't get pro-active about their diet and exercise program. But I know I'm preaching to the converted........
Actually circus girl, very high test levels are associated with depression in women! Obviously yours are not that high!
SteelWeaver, it's usually the hormones that cause the fat distribution rather than the other way around. Certain predisposing factors (such as high insulin levels/insulin resistance) are implicated in some cases. Pituitary tumours in other cases. Drugs that reduce circulating androgen levels can help to return fat and insulin sensitivity back to normal.
Actually circus girl, very high test levels are associated with depression in women! Obviously yours are not that high!
SteelWeaver, it's usually the hormones that cause the fat distribution rather than the other way around. Certain predisposing factors (such as high insulin levels/insulin resistance) are implicated in some cases. Pituitary tumours in other cases. Drugs that reduce circulating androgen levels can help to return fat and insulin sensitivity back to normal.
SteelWeaver
New member
For anyone who's too lazy to do the searches, but wants to know, this is interesting:
PCOS
"Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) is also known as:
polycystic ovaries; sclerocystic ovarian disease; polycystic
ovarian disease (PCOD); Stein-Leventhal Syndrome. PCOS
stands for Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. PCOS is actually a
misnomer, because it onlyrefers to one of many symptoms
associated with this disorder. It affects between 5 to 10%of all
women and is one of the leading causes of infertility.
WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS?
Symptoms can be mild or severe, and can vary widely from
woman to woman. This is part of the reason doctors often miss
the diagnosis. Someone with PCOS may have one or all of the
following symptoms in varying degrees:
- irregular periods: abnormal, irregular, heavy or scanty
(oligomenorrhea)
- absent periods (amenorrhea)
- ovarian cysts
- hirsutism (excess facial and/or body hair)
- alopecia (male-pattern hair loss)
- obesity
- acne
- skin tags
- acanthosis nigricans (brown skin patches, often found on the
nape of the neck)
- high cholesterol levels
- high blood pressure
- exhaustion and/or lack of mental alertness
- decreased sex drive
- excess "male" hormones, such as androgens, DHEAS, or
testosterone
- infertility
- decreased breast size
- enlarged clitoris(rare)
- enlarged ovaries
- enlarged uterus
Note that symptoms can worsen over time or with weight gain.
I THINK I HAVE PCOS - WHAT NOW?
Go straight to an endocrinologist. They specialize in glandular
disorders; in this case, the gland in question is the pancreas, which
is overproducing insulin. Seeing an OB/GYN is only really useful
if you are trying to get pregnant and, even then, a reproductive
endocrinologist would probably be better informed.
TESTING FOR PCOS
There is no *one* truly definitive test yet, but rather a set
of tests can be used to diagnose PCOS:
1. A glucose tolerance test (GTT). Note that for the GTT
you should have about 200g of carbs daily for the three to
four days leading up to the test -- but of course fasting
for 10 to 12 hours right before the test! -- otherwise the
results will not be accurate. Also, smoking or exercise for 8
hours before or during the test can affect results.
2. Cholesterol Levels. Not just total cholesterol, but also
triglycerides, HDL cholesterol, LDL cholesterol.
3. Testosterone, LH, FSH, and androstenedione levels.
Some doctors will advocate more or fewer tests, but the
ones listed above are the most common. Other tests may
include urine 17-ketosteroids, laparoscopy, ovarian biopsy,
serum HCG (pregnancy test), and basal fasting insulin.
In addition, some physicians will also suggest an ultrasound
to check for ovarian cysts, which is of course what the
syndrome is actually named after. However, some women
with PCOS do *not* have ovarian cysts and some women
who do not have PCOS do, so an ultrasound alone is not
enough for a firm diagnosis.
WHAT CAUSES PCOS?
The root of PCOS is an inability to respond properly to insulin,
the hormone produced in the pancreas that allows your body's
cells to absorb energy from the food you eat. This means your
cells don't respond to the normal amount of insulin, so the
pancreas pumps out even more. That's what insulin resistance is
and it happens when the body turns carbohydrates, both simple
and complex, into glucose that surges into the bloodstream.
Insulin travels to the muscle cells, telling them to take glucose from
the bloodstream and store it in the liver. As
insulin levels in the blood increase, glucose levels in the blood
decrease. When blood glucose falls below a certain level, the
brain, which needs glucose to function, calls out for more by
telling you to eat again. If it doesn't get glucose, the result is
drowsiness or lack of mental alertness. This glucose shortage is
also known as low blood sugar or hypoglycemia. When
hypoglycemia strikes, the liver is unable to replenish bloodglucose
from its stored supply because eating a carbohydrate-rich meal or
drinking a sugary beverage creates an exaggerated
insulin response that prevents delivery of the glucose. So, insulin
remains in the bloodstream,sending messages to store more body
fat and preventing the release of already-stored fat, and glucose
remains in the liver instead of going to the brain. In addition, the
high levels of insulin stimulate the ovaries to produce large
amounts of the male hormone testosterone, which may prevent
the ovaries from releasing an egg each month, causing infertility.
High testosterone levels in women also cause acne, male-pattern
baldness, and excess hair growth. Last but not least, it is the
insulin problem that puts us at increased risk for diabetes as well
as heart disease.
WHAT IF I HAVE PCOS?
If you are currently overweight, the first step is to lose the excess
pounds, because many symptoms of PCOS improve or even
disappear entirely at normal weight. Since the cause of all the
problems is insulin resistance, the key seems to lie in restricting
carbohydrates and exercising regularly, for physical activity also
helps regulate insulin production. The most popular of the
low-carb diets are 'Dr Atkins' New Diet Revolution' by Robert
Atkins and 'Protein Power' by Michael and Mary Eades. Another
popular approach is the 'Carbohydrate Addicts Diet' by Rachel
and Richard Heller. Even at normal weight, it is still critical to
moderate
carbohydrate intake as well as exercise. This is simply going to
have to be a way of life, since PCOS cannot be cured, only held
in check. Although many women have reported great success
through low-carbing and exercise alone, a growing number of
women with PCOS are now being treated with so-called diabetic
drugs, such as Metformin (AKA Glucophage). There have been
several studies reporting good results in treating PCOS with
Metformin. However - and this is very important! - Metformin is
only meant to be taken temporarily. The goal is to use
Metformin in conjunction with diet and exercise to lose excess
weight. "
And from the post further above that:
SHBG
What is Sex Hormone Binding Globulin?
Hormone molecules are bound to proteins in the blood. Bound hormone molecules are inactive
until they are released and become free. The main protein produced by the liver and released into
the blood is albumin, which is similar to the egg white of a chicken egg. Sex hormone-binding
globulin (SHBG) is one of the proteins produced by the liver. The binding capacity of this protein
for testosterone is 30,000 times greater than that of albumin. During their reproductive years,
women have double the concentration of SHBG when compared to men as oestrogens encourage
SHBG production. Androgens, such as testosterone, suppress SHBG production. Women with
hirsutism (excess body hair Q 8.6) associated with hyperandrogenism have relatively low SHBG
levels resulting in increased levels of free, actively available, androgens.
And also something about testosterone - something I've never thought to read much about:
"Approximately 97 to 99 percent of
testosterone is transported in the blood bound to plasma proteins such as sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin. The
remaining 1 to 3% is the biologically active, free testosterone. Testosterone circulates in the blood approximately 15 to 30 minutes
until it is either bound to receptors or metabolized into inactive products by the liver and subsequently excreted through the urine. "
What else is associated with naturally higher test levels? Circusgirl said aggression and competitiveness. But what about body hair, the ability to read a map, lol, and refusal to ask directions? Ha ha - just kidding, but it's going to be 6 months before I can go and get a test test, and I'm kind of interested to know if there are any other signs. Depression - no - I don't have that.
PCOS
"Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) is also known as:
polycystic ovaries; sclerocystic ovarian disease; polycystic
ovarian disease (PCOD); Stein-Leventhal Syndrome. PCOS
stands for Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. PCOS is actually a
misnomer, because it onlyrefers to one of many symptoms
associated with this disorder. It affects between 5 to 10%of all
women and is one of the leading causes of infertility.
WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS?
Symptoms can be mild or severe, and can vary widely from
woman to woman. This is part of the reason doctors often miss
the diagnosis. Someone with PCOS may have one or all of the
following symptoms in varying degrees:
- irregular periods: abnormal, irregular, heavy or scanty
(oligomenorrhea)
- absent periods (amenorrhea)
- ovarian cysts
- hirsutism (excess facial and/or body hair)
- alopecia (male-pattern hair loss)
- obesity
- acne
- skin tags
- acanthosis nigricans (brown skin patches, often found on the
nape of the neck)
- high cholesterol levels
- high blood pressure
- exhaustion and/or lack of mental alertness
- decreased sex drive
- excess "male" hormones, such as androgens, DHEAS, or
testosterone
- infertility
- decreased breast size
- enlarged clitoris(rare)
- enlarged ovaries
- enlarged uterus
Note that symptoms can worsen over time or with weight gain.
I THINK I HAVE PCOS - WHAT NOW?
Go straight to an endocrinologist. They specialize in glandular
disorders; in this case, the gland in question is the pancreas, which
is overproducing insulin. Seeing an OB/GYN is only really useful
if you are trying to get pregnant and, even then, a reproductive
endocrinologist would probably be better informed.
TESTING FOR PCOS
There is no *one* truly definitive test yet, but rather a set
of tests can be used to diagnose PCOS:
1. A glucose tolerance test (GTT). Note that for the GTT
you should have about 200g of carbs daily for the three to
four days leading up to the test -- but of course fasting
for 10 to 12 hours right before the test! -- otherwise the
results will not be accurate. Also, smoking or exercise for 8
hours before or during the test can affect results.
2. Cholesterol Levels. Not just total cholesterol, but also
triglycerides, HDL cholesterol, LDL cholesterol.
3. Testosterone, LH, FSH, and androstenedione levels.
Some doctors will advocate more or fewer tests, but the
ones listed above are the most common. Other tests may
include urine 17-ketosteroids, laparoscopy, ovarian biopsy,
serum HCG (pregnancy test), and basal fasting insulin.
In addition, some physicians will also suggest an ultrasound
to check for ovarian cysts, which is of course what the
syndrome is actually named after. However, some women
with PCOS do *not* have ovarian cysts and some women
who do not have PCOS do, so an ultrasound alone is not
enough for a firm diagnosis.
WHAT CAUSES PCOS?
The root of PCOS is an inability to respond properly to insulin,
the hormone produced in the pancreas that allows your body's
cells to absorb energy from the food you eat. This means your
cells don't respond to the normal amount of insulin, so the
pancreas pumps out even more. That's what insulin resistance is
and it happens when the body turns carbohydrates, both simple
and complex, into glucose that surges into the bloodstream.
Insulin travels to the muscle cells, telling them to take glucose from
the bloodstream and store it in the liver. As
insulin levels in the blood increase, glucose levels in the blood
decrease. When blood glucose falls below a certain level, the
brain, which needs glucose to function, calls out for more by
telling you to eat again. If it doesn't get glucose, the result is
drowsiness or lack of mental alertness. This glucose shortage is
also known as low blood sugar or hypoglycemia. When
hypoglycemia strikes, the liver is unable to replenish bloodglucose
from its stored supply because eating a carbohydrate-rich meal or
drinking a sugary beverage creates an exaggerated
insulin response that prevents delivery of the glucose. So, insulin
remains in the bloodstream,sending messages to store more body
fat and preventing the release of already-stored fat, and glucose
remains in the liver instead of going to the brain. In addition, the
high levels of insulin stimulate the ovaries to produce large
amounts of the male hormone testosterone, which may prevent
the ovaries from releasing an egg each month, causing infertility.
High testosterone levels in women also cause acne, male-pattern
baldness, and excess hair growth. Last but not least, it is the
insulin problem that puts us at increased risk for diabetes as well
as heart disease.
WHAT IF I HAVE PCOS?
If you are currently overweight, the first step is to lose the excess
pounds, because many symptoms of PCOS improve or even
disappear entirely at normal weight. Since the cause of all the
problems is insulin resistance, the key seems to lie in restricting
carbohydrates and exercising regularly, for physical activity also
helps regulate insulin production. The most popular of the
low-carb diets are 'Dr Atkins' New Diet Revolution' by Robert
Atkins and 'Protein Power' by Michael and Mary Eades. Another
popular approach is the 'Carbohydrate Addicts Diet' by Rachel
and Richard Heller. Even at normal weight, it is still critical to
moderate
carbohydrate intake as well as exercise. This is simply going to
have to be a way of life, since PCOS cannot be cured, only held
in check. Although many women have reported great success
through low-carbing and exercise alone, a growing number of
women with PCOS are now being treated with so-called diabetic
drugs, such as Metformin (AKA Glucophage). There have been
several studies reporting good results in treating PCOS with
Metformin. However - and this is very important! - Metformin is
only meant to be taken temporarily. The goal is to use
Metformin in conjunction with diet and exercise to lose excess
weight. "
And from the post further above that:
SHBG
What is Sex Hormone Binding Globulin?
Hormone molecules are bound to proteins in the blood. Bound hormone molecules are inactive
until they are released and become free. The main protein produced by the liver and released into
the blood is albumin, which is similar to the egg white of a chicken egg. Sex hormone-binding
globulin (SHBG) is one of the proteins produced by the liver. The binding capacity of this protein
for testosterone is 30,000 times greater than that of albumin. During their reproductive years,
women have double the concentration of SHBG when compared to men as oestrogens encourage
SHBG production. Androgens, such as testosterone, suppress SHBG production. Women with
hirsutism (excess body hair Q 8.6) associated with hyperandrogenism have relatively low SHBG
levels resulting in increased levels of free, actively available, androgens.
And also something about testosterone - something I've never thought to read much about:
"Approximately 97 to 99 percent of
testosterone is transported in the blood bound to plasma proteins such as sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin. The
remaining 1 to 3% is the biologically active, free testosterone. Testosterone circulates in the blood approximately 15 to 30 minutes
until it is either bound to receptors or metabolized into inactive products by the liver and subsequently excreted through the urine. "
What else is associated with naturally higher test levels? Circusgirl said aggression and competitiveness. But what about body hair, the ability to read a map, lol, and refusal to ask directions? Ha ha - just kidding, but it's going to be 6 months before I can go and get a test test, and I'm kind of interested to know if there are any other signs. Depression - no - I don't have that.
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