Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Tom Treutlein]

I was actually thinking of throwing in 1x5 squatting 3x a week. Either that, or 1x5 on two days, 3x5 on another. Just...less volume than I was doing.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Topical and Fundemental Solution Framework Applied to Training

I just read a great post from Blut Wump that I think really sums up very clearly why suboptimal methods in some situations might produce results equal to the most optimal methods, yet in others fail miserably. I happened to really enjoy the framework he used and I think it really clarifies what it is we are observing.

Source Post: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4898308&postcount=34

There comes a point in any discussion like this on almost any worthwhile topic where you have to look at whether a solution is topical or fundamental. A topical solution being one that works in a restricted set of circumstances and a fundamental one being one that applies at all times and can also explain why a topical solution works when it does and why it fails at other times.

If dual-factor training can take and enhance a few tens of thousands of lifters and general athletes who have tried conventional training and hit long-term plateaus and can also explain why they were hitting those plateaus then I have to think that it offers a more fundamental understanding of how the body is working. You simply do not find successful athletes who train by conventional bodybuilding methods without copious quantities of drugs. They don't even train horses or dogs that way.

I wouldn't suggest that it offers a complete understanding of how to grow and perform better but it does offer another step beyond the simple "train and grow" that we all begin with.

Madcow's 5x5 is just one program built around the dual-factor method. It's not some holy grail of bio-enhancement and he most of all suggests that once you have an understanding of the principles involved that you should be tailoring your own program for your own needs. Westside does the same: Tate has a 9-week beginners' program after which you're your own coach.

It's in the details where we get down to all of us being different yet fundamentally the same. We end up with differing applications of the underlying fundamentals. It's important to reach the fundamentals first, though, and these are what most of the discussions on here on dual-factor topics relate to: knowing why it works; why it must work for everyone and how to make it work best for an individual. Part of that knowledge is going to include knowing why the old, conventional BB methods really don't measure up and yet also why they are valid methods.

 

[Slyder190]

Madcow, a few more questions again. But first, I must say yhat while I have not put on any size thus far (week 6 point), My strength has really taken off. I can't thank you enough!

Now for the questions-

I never use a weight belt. I have a "sway back", which sways inward at the bottom of my spine (and causes my ass to stick out), and have had back pain on and off for years. Nothing too major outside the herniation I had one time. My back is a bit sore at times as I've gone up in weights, pretty sure it's from the squats. Should I wear a belt when going heavy now?

You mentioned one can get stronger on a reduced calorire diet due to neural adaption. If this is the pathway, how is it that size often comes as well when not on a claoire restriced diet? Just curious. I would like to up my calories, but summer is upon us (and yeah, I guess I'm vane).

And I would like to hit DFHT at some point in the fall. Can you help guide me through it on this thread as you've done so well in doing so with 5x5 for everyone?

Thanks.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow, a few more questions again. But first, I must say yhat while I have not put on any size thus far (week 6 point), My strength has really taken off. I can't thank you enough!

So, if you've stayed the same weight and not added muscle or fat....that's fairly conclusive that you need everything you eat just to maintain your current weight and whatever muscle you have. Caloric excess is not present, and I'm betting being a BBer you keep yourself fairly lean. You might find my Diet/Caloric Excess thread linked in the TOC a helpful read. In short, you need to eat more food, you have as much muscle on you as your body will support on your current diet. The program is working, you are getting strong in the right exercises and in the right rep/volume ranges but your body fears for its survival and will not add muscle.

Now for the questions-

I never use a weight belt. I have a "sway back", which sways inward at the bottom of my spine (and causes my ass to stick out), and have had back pain on and off for years. Nothing too major outside the herniation I had one time. My back is a bit sore at times as I've gone up in weights, pretty sure it's from the squats. Should I wear a belt when going heavy now?

I don't know enough about this condition. In general I prefer not to rely on a belt except when handling heavy weights. Plenty of guys perform heavy squats unequipped (there's a really famouns 'no-no-no' poster of an OL doing a very heavy ATF triple). Like I said, I don't know all the ins and outs of the condition. Over-relying on a belt can actually weaken the stabalization muscles relative to the prime overs. This is all up to you, try it and see if it helps and then think about it.

You mentioned one can get stronger on a reduced calorire diet due to neural adaption. If this is the pathway, how is it that size often comes as well when not on a claoire restriced diet? Just curious. I would like to up my calories, but summer is upon us (and yeah, I guess I'm vane).

Sets of 5 reps and volumes in the 5x5 range are hypertrophy inducing as well as providing for neural efficiency. But if you don't eat, your body won't put on muscle. Muscle is not an elastic resource which can be put up and stripped down in a day for easy energy. Through millions of years our bodies have learned that maintaining a lot of muscle is very risky due to intermittent famines and food shortages (i.e. those of us with genetics to just layer on muscle and be ripped all the time died very quicky). It will not add muscle at the expense of your fat stores (made worse by most BBers prefering to be as lean as possible) unless it is reasonably certain that food is plentiful and there is a major need (i.e. proper training program/stimulus).

And I would like to hit DFHT at some point in the fall. Can you help guide me through it on this thread as you've done so well in doing so with 5x5 for everyone?

No fuckin' way . If I do it for one, I have to do it for everybody and my plate is full. Tons of documentation on this thread linked in the TOC as well as in the forums at Mesomorphosis, Core Magazine, the forums at midwestbarbell. All of that info in is Part I and repeated in Parts II and III.

 

[Topside]

Question week 9 is approaching (in week 8 now). When i finish week 9 im about 99% sure im gonna deload again i think my body willl probably need it. Since this phase we are already doing 3x3 how would you deload that. Say week 9 my bench is 180 row is 190 and squat is 235 all for 3, do you just repeat week 9 or drop it down to 2x3 or something like that?

 

[psychedout]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I might as well add to the chaos and post up my results.

I did the program while dieting and followed it although someone modified (don't worry guys, it was still dual-factor in every sense). Instead of doing 5x5 squats I did 2x20 in the loading phase, and 1x20 in the deloading phase. I know someone is gonna try and call bullshit, but no lies I gained about 65 pounds to my 20rep squat. (I was not, and still am not too concerned with making my legs much bigger -- that said they still grew even with 20reppers). I also incorporated weighted dips on the Friday workout (5x5 loading, 3x3 deloading).

I did make the mistake of underestimating the difficulty of the rows in the program. Certainly much harder than a barbell or t-bar row. As a result I tweaked my back, but still managed to get through.

Now for the gains. My SOHP gained a tonne. In part due to the fact that I had never done them religously before, but damn they work good. I can really see how the translate into more bench press strength. Before when I unracked anything heavier than my 5RM I would be shaky and nervous and not powerful. Now I can hold a 2-1RM weight like a piece of cake -- lower it smoothly, up smoothly -- great power overall. My wieghted chin also gained a tonne -- which is great because I have never been good at chins at all. My row gained a lot, but I don't really have any previous numbers for comparison because I never was involved in dynamic rowing before. Bench gained a bit (15 pounds I beleive), but I wasn't expecting more because I have always been pretty far ahead of the game with my bench numbers.

Now, this is the biggest thing that shocked me with the program. Body parts like rear delts and other tiny muscles really started poking through with little or no direct work. I'll admit one of my concerns is that this program would build solid mass, but at the expense of cosmetics. From my experience, this is not true at all. The only thing I can see appearence wise is that I could use more shoulder width; but for now I am just gonna keep OHP'ing hard, and throw in the odd drop set of db laterals perhaps.


Now for my next program I am gonna run a dual-factor program again, but somewhat different. Same exercise selection really, but different rep schemes. Madcow, what do you think about this (I think it would still be dual factor theory training). Example is below.

Here is how it would look for a given exercise:

Loading phase:
Weeks 1-2
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps
-8 reps
-6 reps
None of these sets are pushed to failure, they would be stopped 1-2 reps short of failure (thus intensity is not 100%).

Week 3-4
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps x failure
-8 reps x failure
-6 reps x failure (lets say this number is 200pds).
These sets are max intensity sets.

Deloading phase (using the same lift that was at 200pds before)
Week 5
-Warm up set(s)
-3reps x 150 easy
-2reps x 175 easy
-5reps x 200 pds (step back 1 rep with the wieght here and no real volume prior to this set really)

Weeks 6 to approx. 10.
- Light triple
- Light double
- Intense 5RM (adding 5-10 pounds per week to this lift)

Basically the deloading would be run until a wall is hit and lifts are not moving up anymore.
If I need to clarify something in there, feel free to let me know.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Question week 9 is approaching (in week 8 now). When i finish week 9 im about 99% sure im gonna deload again i think my body willl probably need it. Since this phase we are already doing 3x3 how would you deload that. Say week 9 my bench is 180 row is 190 and squat is 235 all for 3, do you just repeat week 9 or drop it down to 2x3 or something like that?

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Post Cycle:
Depending upon how you feel, it's probably a good idea to deload again before moving back into another volume phase if you ran the 3x per week like I outlined above. See the alternative schedule below and perform this light for 2 weeks working on speed/acceleration. If you ran the 2x alternate schedule below for your deload/intensity you can likely move straight back into another volume phase.

EDIT - added top quote for relevance, psychedout slipped right past me

 

[Topside]

good stuff thanx.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Congratulations with the gains you made on the program, psyched.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow, what do you think about this (I think it would still be dual factor theory training). Example is below.

Here is how it would look for a given exercise:

Loading phase:
Weeks 1-2
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps
-8 reps
-6 reps
None of these sets are pushed to failure, they would be stopped 1-2 reps short of failure (thus intensity is not 100%).

Week 3-4
-Warm up set(s)
-10 reps x failure
-8 reps x failure
-6 reps x failure (lets say this number is 200pds).
These sets are max intensity sets.

Deloading phase (using the same lift that was at 200pds before)
Week 5
-Warm up set(s)
-3reps x 150 easy
-2reps x 175 easy
-5reps x 200 pds (step back 1 rep with the wieght here and no real volume prior to this set really)

Weeks 6 to approx. 10.
- Light triple
- Light double
- Intense 5RM (adding 5-10 pounds per week to this lift)

Basically the deloading would be run until a wall is hit and lifts are not moving up anymore.
If I need to clarify something in there, feel free to let me know.

First, congrats on the program. I have been wondering about how it went for you. I was kind of affraid you'd be sitting there immobile with a cage screwed into your skull quietly cursing me for ever introducing you to the rows. The fact that you gained strength and it sounds like some muscle (i.e. the rear delts etc... reference) while dieting is testament to good work.

On to the program. As long as you push hard and run it to the point of overreaching and then deload, it's dual factor/periodized. As to whether it's going to be stimulative to hypertrophy or strength that's kind of a separate matter although they have to intersect for long term progress.

Anyway, this issue with pyramiding the rep scheme like that is that you are pushing yourself hard on lower intensities (% 1RM) and are somewhat fatigued by the time you hit your lower most stimulative reps in the loading phase (this is true irregardless of whether you go to failure or not as you are trying to stop just shy of a constant increment from failure). I'd really rather see consistency in sets of 6 or 8 or 10 or whatever. Not saying it won't work but this is the integral problem in that you are fatigued before you get to your heaviest weight. If you like to contrast lower with higher reps you could always plan something custom after working with low reps like a 3/1 mesocycle where you handle reps in the 8-12 range or some such. Just random thoughts but stuff you should keep in mind and possibly factor in this period or the future.

For week 5, I'm assuming you aren't dropping exercises or altering anything else. The volume is really low. I wouldn't drop back at all on the top set. You also won't be nearly as fatigued because there isn't much work prior to your top set.

For weeks 6-10, I may have this right or wrong but the way I would approach it is to add poundage each week. I think that's what you are doing. It looks like the volume is really low here though.

An exercise that I would do is to compare this cycle to last on a pounds lifted per week basis (just use the core exercises don't count arms or any other stuff if it's in there - no warm ups either but all planned working sets).

I wrote this above to Tom about calculating Loads. This will allow you to compare what you are handling this cycle vs. last. With sets/reps like you have I think you are going to find that it may be significantly less. That's okay but stuff like this you want to know about because load is the major factor on fatigue and increasing capacity.

Counting reps isn't really the best way. Use weight x reps for every set and add it all up for everything during the week. This will give you total pounds applied over a period which is a better proxy for load (actually it is load but but sometimes reality is different than pounds i.e. adding up the massive weight you can legpress and assuming it is comparable to the squat).

There are a lot of ways of doing it really (some only count 80-85% or greater intensities, some OL programs only bother calculating the full lifts). The jist of it is that squatting is a lot more fatiguing than a pullup or press so total reps isn't the best way to think about it. Let me tell you that if you do the math and subtract the squatting load from the total load over the course of the volume phase - it's a damn big number and the squat is a very stimulative exercise so in reality I'd view the number of pounds you calc for squatting as a very conservative estimate of their true contribution.