Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

wow...yo man..madcow, just give me the word and I'll go after him. I got your back (not that you need it lol).

I don't care in the least (although it best not count against any of my 15 minutes of fame as that is supposed to be something a bit grander than this). I actually wrote him an email and pointed out where my original explanation wasn't clear. I'm more concerned with people using that version and not using a pryamid on the 1x5/1x3 days and not understanding why they are fatigued again around weeks 8/9.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I think I'm going to try the original writeup of the program, where you use 5x5 and 3x3 on Monday and Friday, rather than subbing in the 1x5 and 1x3. In all honesty, the volume for my upper body seemed a bit low with the 1x5/1x3 days.

Keep in mind that the volume/load impact is systemic, not just upper or lower body. When you increase volume you increase fatigue. What you really want to look at is how your strength responded. If you got a good deal stronger, it's a tough argument to say that more volume is required. Also, most people are conservative the first time and aren't really pushing themselves in both loading weeks. Setting the weights to where you are truly breaking current and relevant records in both weeks 3/4 is a different ballgame and creates a much bigger rebound effect (and significantly more fatigue as most people are in actuality probably only getting a single week of hard loading if that since there is a trend to make every set/rep accross every exercise in both weeks).

It's also not black and white for 5x5 vs. 1x5. You can use a protocol where you pyramid 2 sets of 5 and then perform 3x5 at working set weight or any other combo (even just the bench and not the squat/row). Moving all exercises from pyramids to repeats of the Monday workout is very significant. If you graph load by working sets it's a major jump. This is why the pyramids are in there simply because a lot of people find this to be too much and fatigue early. Particularly those who haven't used this style of training for a while.

I'm not saying you can't do this but you should evaluate your previous progress (I can't do anything about weight gain, only get you stronger in a hypertrophy range in big exercises - it's up to your body and your diet after that) and then decide from there how much more is appropriate. However, in the end it's a merging of science and art so experimenting and trying things is important.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Did anyone else notice that he talks consistently of 3/1 load/deload schema and then gives an example using 4 weeks of loading without explanation. Still, it is a very clear write-up of dual-factor principles.

I know, the first weeks are supposed to be accomodation followed by 2 weeks of real loading. Very few can truly load heavy for 3 weeks straight.

Madcow, you do mention that you do a lot of warmups to get the required volume on the 1x5 exercises. That's close enough to a pyramid.

It's close enough because you know the program. Believe me, the whole reason I rewrote my explanation is because "close enough" bascially means I have to explain it 100x until I give in and rewrite it.

 

[horse52]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey madcow/others,

I am taking a weeks vacation the day after my final week 5 (deload) workout (I know I should have waited till I got back to start the program but this was unforseen) and was wondering how badly this will affect my gains in the 3x3 phase. Will I need to run the 5x5 laoding phase again or will running the 3x per week intensity phase be OK?

 

[Madcow2]

Just run the 3x per week intensity when you return. Not optimal but not a huge deal.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I made the mistake of doing deadlift as my last exercise...

I had to do my deads with much less weight because my form was extremely bad with the standard load.

Should I add another volume week to compensate for my shitty deadlift workout or should I just shrug it off and go on?


Also...
My form really suffers when im in the 5 rep range because the weight is very heavy for me. My lower back is straight but I can't keep my middle and upper back straight.

Should I lower the weights until my whole back is straight?

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I made the mistake of doing deadlift as my last exercise...

I had to do my deads with much less weight because my form was extremely bad with the standard load.

Should I add another volume week to compensate for my shitty deadlift workout or should I just shrug it off and go on?


Also...
My form really suffers when im in the 5 rep range because the weight is very heavy for me. My lower back is straight but I can't keep my middle and upper back straight.

Should I lower the weights until my whole back is straight?

This kind of concerns me. If you are using the dual factor version, good foundation and strong technique is assumed. You can't risk building quickly to heavy loading weights if your technique is bad (i.e. you are asking for an injury).

My suggestion since it doesn't look like you've been training the squat or the deadlift for a long time is to use the novice version in the TOC, drop the weight until technique is solid, and build up from there. Being new to these very core lifts a periodized program is the wrong way to approach it. You'll get as much and possibly even more gains out of just running it the basic way.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

This kind of concerns me. If you are using the dual factor version, good foundation and strong technique is assumed. You can't risk building quickly to heavy loading weights if your technique is bad (i.e. you are asking for an injury).

My suggestion since it doesn't look like you've been training the squat or the deadlift for a long time is to use the novice version in the TOC, drop the weight until technique is solid, and build up from there. Being new to these very core lifts a periodized program is the wrong way to approach it. You'll get as much and possibly even more gains out of just running it the basic way.

yah I think I better switch to the novice version. I've only been weightlifting for 7 months and I've been *doing* the core lifts for like 3 months. It's hard to gauge effectiveness because I added alot of mass despite having no training principles.

But seriously, my squat form is good and so is my benchpress but now that im using heavier weights with the deadlift, my back just doesn't want to go as far as my will.

Single factor here I come

 

[JL_204]

I wish i would have started with the single factor or took a week off before jumping into the 5x5. Im in the 3rd week of loading and i feel fatigue setting in. Ive been lifting for 2 years and thought i could handle it, but with work, school, and everthing else i feel drained.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I wish i would have started with the single factor or took a week off before jumping into the 5x5. Im in the 3rd week of loading and i feel fatigue setting in. Ive been lifting for 2 years and thought i could handle it, but with work, school, and everthing else i feel drained.

You might be okay, you should be pretty burned by the time you finish the first phase and weeks 3 and 4 are pretty damn hard. You should be working at full capacity and you absolutely will not feel fresh and bright. Basically, you should be begging for week 5 and deloading to begin. Most people aren't used to this feeling because they train on programs that assume infintite/long periods ("until it stops working" cliche). This is specifically designed to burn you out - you are just running it right up to the brink and accumulating fatigue the whole time. Just keep a good journal so you get as good a reference as possible to look back on. You might really surprise yourself in the 3x3 phase when you deload. That said, I'd advise doing the 2x per week method especially the first time.