Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

MAX BENCH = 205 FOR 5
MAX SQUAT = 215 FOR 5 (TALL AND BAD KNEE SYNDROME TOO I GUESS
MAX ROW = 185 FOR 5
MAX DEAD = 315 FOR 2


M:
Squat 5x5..............165...........185...........200...........210
Bench 1x5..............180............195............205.........215
Row 1x5 ................155.............165...........175...........185..

INSTRUCTIONS:
Squat 5x5 you are warming up and then using the weight provided for 5 sets of 5 (all sets done with the target weight)
Bench 1x5 you are performing a pyramid of 5 sets of 5. In each set the weight will move progressively upward. The target weight listed is the weight for your top set (this is what matters - the pyramid is just there to give you extra volume). So for Wk1 your top set is 180 for 5 so you might do 135x5, 145x5, 155x5, 165x5, and then the target of 180x5.
Row 1x5 - see bench above and adjust target weight to chart and figure a comparable pyramid scheme.


W:......................Wk1............Wk2...........Wk3...........Wk4
Squat 5x5 ............140.............160...........170...........175....
Deadlift 5x5 .........225..............255...........275..........295........
Military 5x5
Pullups 5x5

INSTRUCTIONS:
This should be self explanatory - look at the Monday Squat 5x5. It's exactly the same idea for the deadlift, military, and pullups (don't need to be nuts with pullups just add weight via a dumbell if you can do tons of them). The dead was largely a guesstimate. Take 15% off the squat weight used on Monday now do 5x5 with it - I just multiplied the Monday squat by 0.85 and rounded off the number.



F:......................Wk1............Wk2...........Wk3...........Wk4
Squat 1x5..............185...........200...........215...........225
Bench 5x5..............165............175............185.........195
Row 5x5 ................165.............175...........185...........195..

INSTRUCTIONS
Squat 1x5 you are performing a pyramid of 5 sets of 5. In each set the weight will move progressively upward. The target weight listed is the weight for your top set (this is what matters - the pyramid is just there to give you extra volume). So for Wk1 your top set is 185 for 5 so you might do 135x5, 150x5, 165x5, 175x5, and then the target of 185x5.
Bench 5x5 you are warming up and then using the weight provided for 5 sets of 5 (all sets done with the target weight)
Row 5x5 - see bench above and adjust target weight to chart

NOTES:
1) If you fail to get the desired sets/reps - keep the weight the same for the next week.
2) You can adjust future targets based on your success or trouble in earlier weeks. Always keep a mind to what's coming. Weights in week 3 should be very hard but managable the first time you go through this program. Weights in week 4 are a stretch above that and failure may occure.

WEEK 5 AND ON:
So week 5 the weights stay the same but where you are doing 5x5 it is no 3x3 (a single target working set weight for 3 sets of 3) and where it is 1x5 it is now 1x3 (a pyramid of 3 sets culminating in a target top set of 3 - note: during the intensity phase the pyramid structure is not as essential, just get warm up and get to your target weight). Drop the Wednesday squats. The weights for week 5 are the same as week 4. You'll have to figure new targets for your record weeks based upon how you did in the volume phase. Put these targets out at weeks 8/9 and then back into numbers for weeks 6/7. Just select weights that are between week 5 and your record weeks of 8/9 and put them in for 6/7 so you get a ramping similar to the charts above (it may be more compact though but the idea is that the weight moves up each week). You can take extra days of rest as needed or decrease volume as needed.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow, I'm curious as to why ramping is so important, especially when the weights are so far below a person's maxes. Does this relate to HST's idea of progressive loading, and that bigger increments in weight (20 lb. jumps, as above) lead to greater overall gains?

I understand how and why "ramping" would work in that case, but I was just wondering if that was the actual reason for it.

To be honest I just randomly entered weights. But yes having the weights move progressively upward is important to the program. You are really only loading heavily in weeks 3/4 but you are applying scaling volume throughout the period. For a given set/rep scheme increasing the intensity results in higher total volume so this weight ramping acutually is ramping total volume also in an already high volume environment. To be honest, once you've done this a lot week 3 is a real record as is week 4, you end up starting pretty high on weeks 1/2 be still room for significant scale. People tend to be overely optomistic about their strength so I want them to start lower or else the volume in weeks 1/2 taxes then so much that they can't get through to weeks 3/4.

From just spending a few minutes with the HST program it looks like they are ramping intensity but at the same time scaling back on the number of reps - I'm guessing that this keeps volume under control and allows them to extend the loading cycle similar to doing the volume phase here for 6 weeks rather than 4 (but you start lighter in the case of the 5x5 rather than alter the sets/reps). This is a general athletics program (originally the clean was there for rows and high pulls for deads). It results in a ton of hypertrophy - probably as much as anything that's been thought up - but it is also the goal to greatly enhance the strength base. Over time I'm of the mind that the increased strength will lead to higher tolerances for volume and the ability to gain more muscle. Outside of that pure BBing purpose, people like to get stronger as a rule. Weight progression is quantitatively measurable and non subjective vs. physique improvments. I have yet to see anyone not enjoy seeing themselves improving in the lifts.

ANyway - I have to run. Tons to do.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

That's pretty much what I figured, thanks.

 

[psychedout]

Madcow2, I just finished Friday of the first week, quite enjoying it, but anyways, to the question at hand.

I don't get a whole lot of 'pump' while training on this routine. Is it because it was the first week and nothing is to failure really? Or is it just the way it is? What does this not as much pump stuff mean? (Besides the obvious that the lactic acid just isn't building up)

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2, I just finished Friday of the first week, quite enjoying it, but anyways, to the question at hand.

I don't get a whole lot of 'pump' while training on this routine. Is it because it was the first week and nothing is to failure really? Or is it just the way it is? What does this not as much pump stuff mean? (Besides the obvious that the lactic acid just isn't building up)

You've got it - the "pump" means nothing in regards to long-term results in hypertrophy or strength. The same with soreness from a workout (DOMS). Sometimes it kind of seems like they should matter but trust me when I say that it really means nothing. I actually don't enjoy pumps at all as I feel the tightness increases the chance for injury. And it's absolutely essential that you don't go in the gym and do high rep pumping warm ups on cold muscles - this is the best way to tear something.

Glad you are enjoying it. Get a few more weeks under your belt to where you start seeing the results and then you'll really be happy. Enjoy the weekend!

 

[Boss101]

madcow thanks for answering my pm I understand the program now and will start on Monday.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I'm going to have to chop the squats and deadlifts from the program for the time being. Until I get promoted to part-time supervisor at my job, where I do no work (unless yelling at everyone to do everything 10 minutes quicker, even if they were on time) what-so-ever, I plan to stick with benching and rowing. From everything I've read and heard, squats won't put actual mass on your arms. The hormonal response isn't as great as once believed.

That being so, I still believe I can get some results from the program. I plan to try it full throttle when the time comes, but the volume of work is intense. They put me on one of the top three heaviest lines (out of eight belts, some have packages ALL between 60-70 lbs., that need to be lifting from the floor, waist-height, and above your head, walked anywhere from 2-15 feet to the back of a truck, placed down, time and again. This is done for at least 15-20 trucks a night with 100+ packages per car. I guess they like me though, 'cause they entrusted me with one of the harder lines.

Anyway, how do you feel about this madcow? I know squats are the foundation of the program, but progress is progress, and even though I might not be doing squats, I can still keep in the presses, rows, and pullups. I'll try to throw in squatting or deadlifting once a week, but as of now the volume is killing my lower back.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I can already tell you madcow2 is not gonna be happy about that mainly because the squats are the key to the program and you are wrong about them not putting mass on the arms. They illicit a growth response to the whole body which makes your arms grow faster. I have done no direct arm work in 6 weeks now and my arms have grown 3/8". Overall muscle gain from the squats and deads will also be distributed to the arms because they are "total" body movements.

Imo, you might as well not even do the program if you aren't gonna squat and deadlift.

As for your work, well it's more fatiguing than heavy. You can still squat and deadlift. Just soak for 45minutes to an hour after, EAT ALOT, stay hydrated and sleep 8 hours every night.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Anyway, how do you feel about this madcow? I know squats are the foundation of the program, but progress is progress, and even though I might not be doing squats, I can still keep in the presses, rows, and pullups. I'll try to throw in squatting or deadlifting once a week, but as of now the volume is killing my lower back.

I hear where you are coming from. I kind of figured this wouldn't be the best time for you to start it. Do what you can while you get accomodated to the job. In 2 months you'll be fine. Applying the volume from your job and this workout together when you weren't used to either and doing it at exactly the same time is a recipe for failure. But who knew, I didn't know what your traiining was like beforehand and the worst thing that can happen is you pull the plug on the program for now. No biggie.

With the squats and deads out, that's a massive blow - I won't candycoat it for you. That will slash the majority of the gains from this or any program. Pulling from the floor and full body pressing (squat) are the most essential stuff you can do for your physique. If you put 100lbs on your squat, I will show you bigger arms. It's not the hormonal response so much as adding musculature to the entire base of the body. Direct arm work kind of fluffs out what's there and maximizes your base muscle. It won't drive long-term base progress over time though. The squat and DL will do this and you can do some arm specific work to fluff out that base later on. I'd put money on 2 exact guys doing this program and training for a year. 1 does arm work and the other doesn't. At the end of the program the guy who didn't puts in 8 weeks of general lifting and hits the arm work - their arms will be the same size at the end of this.

Just to give you an idea, I think g ghellar is the guy who ran this program but had a pretty severe back injury around a year ago. He swapped squats with leg press, eliminated the deads, and did powershrugs instead of rows. He trained hard and got stronger but his gains were modest at best. I mean, kudos to him the guy is injured and is only getting back into stuff now - I've had a back injury, I know what it is to sneeze and almost pass out. Shit, for over a month I had to haul my underwear up my legs with my cane because I couldn't bend at the waist - I'd just throw them on the floor, step in, and cane them up. But, take a look at the gains other people have gotten (some are really good for experienced lifters but everybody as a rule does fairly well on this and gets a good increase) and let me tell you, the difference is to a large degree the squats and also the dead.

 

[lavi]

When I think maximal training - I think 1RM. You say you want "the intensity phase only working up to a 3RM" (which it currently does) and then adjusting the volume accordingly. Can you be a bit more explicit - not sure I understand.

i was just thinking of making everything for a 3rm rather than some for a 3rm and some for 3x3. incorporating 1rms would be ideal though. just curious about the possibility.