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A comprehensive look at modern AAS cycling.

Andy13 said:
If you are planning a 10 week cycle, the goal is to be at highest blood concentrations for as many of the 10 weeks as possible.
Andy

An OK, post, but I don't agree with that statement.

The goal of most people has nothing to do with that.

Their goal is results, with manageble sides.

No one (this is laughable) says "hey, dig me, the BBng stud-man, becuase I maintained a high blood concentration ...". LOL

People want results. Lean mass. Low sides. Thats what they want. Now it may be true that for many guys (not all) that means high and consistent blood concentration is the best way. But thats not their goal.

Great info though in the post.

I would make one important caveat.

From what I have seen, people who are susceptible to acne tend to have worse flare-ups whenever there is a very very rapid change in hormone levels. Think about it - for many guys, its the first few weeks when acne flares up ... then its flares up again when clomid is kicking natural Test back in.

Front loading (whether using a high-dose long-acting ester or a faster-ester to get things moving quickly) is great and will help effectiveness and results (because of the reasons Andy said). However for guys who are veryt acne-prone, allowing a longer acting ester to efect a more gradual "ramping" up of their Test levels may be an option to consider.
 
No one (this is laughable) says "hey, dig me, the BBng stud-man, becuase I maintained a high blood concentration ...". LOL

People want results. Lean mass. Low sides. Thats what they want. Now it may be true that for many guys (not all) that means high and consistent blood concentration is the best way. But thats not their goal.

Riker29, you seem to be missing the point a little here unless I am missreading you. You say people want results, but in the end results DO come from consistent blood levels. As for sides, front loading does not necessarily give any more sides than a standard cycle. The peak dose does not vary much, if at all from a front load to a standard cycle. If you dont think consistent blood levels play a crucial role in gains, try your next cycle with 1g of prop shot once a week and see how your body does as you follow the bouncing ball. An exageration yes, but maybe that helps to get the point across.

As for your acne comments, very good point, however, if you notice blood levels on a non frontloaded cycle are never very constant, they climb through the whole thing. SO if your theory of changing hormone levels are at the root of acne, then perhaps a cycle that imposes a change, gets blood levels up fast and keeps them there will offer less sides?

I applaud your efforts here guys. I think if this helps people understand more about what they are doing it's great. It seems to me however you are over-complicating a pretty basic cycling concept.
Perhaps thier should have been a disclaimer in andy's post, but at the same time its hard for anyone to cover all the bases and fend off all potential attacks. It has been stated before by both andy and myself that we both understand there are a great many variables. There is not only product injected, but location of injection as well as injection volume. These are things that little has been done to quantify and then only on a small group of AAS and a small variance in inj location. Just because there are variances does not mean we can not try and make what we do know and have control over a little clearer.

You say that we are overcomplicating a pretty basic cycleing concept, but in essence we are not over complicating anything, just trying to add some light to a subject that has been discussed with no evidence or clarification to back it. I dont think Andy's goal, and I know mine wasnt, to complicate anything, but add some credability, with numbers and pictures. A means to educate and not confuse. Half life computation is not rocket science and anyone can do it, if they take the time. Andy has posted the formula and explained it well enough that anyone can incorporate it. One a side note, I dont think anyone has come out and said cycle this way or not at all, these are just more ideas for people to experiment with and take for a test drive to see how they fare.

Some people come here and throw up a cycle for opinions and every now and then we still see a cycle that pyramids and everyone is quick to act and say thats old school. Keep it straight line throughout. Recenty there have been some saying to front load if anything. I would bet that a couple years down the road some one will post a flat dose cycle and be told to front load, flat dose cycles are old school. Just because something works does not mean it cant be improved.
 
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Supernova thread!

This should be bumped up forever. You gave us yet another informative post Andy! Thanks for the advice you have gave.
 
ahhhhhh haaaa......now let's consider the economics of how to front load as we are not rich....ok I'm upper middle but my toys are ruining me.

Storm Shadow, a couple things to consider with your idea. When you look at the numbers, you see that a no front load style cycle just continually rises until the end. A front loaded cycle peaks fast and stays somewhat level from there on out. If I follow your line of thought and start a cycle with short esters, if my goal is to keep blood levels steady of unesterfied AAS then I would in essence have to use the short esters almost to the end of the cycle, just lowering thier doses as the blood levels from the long esters climb. Did I explaine that good enough, do you see where I am comming from?
 
Hey Zyg---- How about a chart for a 2x load of deca on day one and then 200mg twice weekly after that?

Also, could you trim some of the time off of the end of the chart so that there is more space between days?

Ok, here is one showing a 1200mg dose of deca (10 day half life) inj on monday with subsequent inj on wed and sat of 200mg each for the remainder of cycle.



deca-front.jpg
 
Zyglamail & Andy.....I'm totally agreeing with you. When I say short esters......I don't mean just short esters......
I'm saying that the combo of no ester & long esters in front loading kills that pyramid. Blood Serum Testosterone levels not only go sky high in the first day & stay up there.....the suspension is immediately available for use in the body.

I'm agreeing with you in that the gradual rise in test really wastes a lost of testosterone and time.....the way most people cycle....you may be half way through your cycle before the concentration is proper and stays up there....even Roberts agrees with that...I'm going to find out where I read him saying that.

Where Robert had not really touched & I'm glad you both brought it up......Roberts talked about how to end a cycle & how too many end it improperly of when they start therapy to bring natural test levels up. Using short esters or no esters brings about therapy much faster. Let's say....somebody is ending a cycle with sust or deca or something like that.....at the time Clomid becomes effective......test levels in the body is too low for too long bringing about shock....loss of strength.....muscle....etc. Prop & Suspension will keep it high until you start your Clomid Therapy. I'm not sure but I think (I'll have to check), Clomid can start 48hrs after last Suspension Injection. Deca or sust....14 days? Is that correct?
 
Clomid can start 48hrs after last Suspension Injection. Deca or sust....14 days? Is that correct?
I dont think suspension will have a half life of more than a day tops. With no ester to slow it down, it in, on a receptor and gone in no time. I would say starting clomid after suspension could start within 12 hours, but cant say with any certainty.

As for clomid in general, that is something else we can get from running the numbers. Our current thoughts on recovery may be sufficient, but not ideal. Running the numbers shows us blood levels all the way down to nil. The question now is, at what levels of a given product is clomid effective? This will likely vary from AAS to AAS but if we can round up those numbers and use them in conjunction with the numbers in graphs, we should theoretically be able to chose a starting point for clomid more accuratly. I believe The Iron Game is working on locating some of these numbers.
 
ZYGLAMAIL.

I agree with you about planning the cycle before starting it, so I did, it is just that after reading this thread, I started to wander what would be the best way to finish specially this cycle, as you said maybe I should finish it just the way it was planned, and take these theories for the next cycles, or use Fina as Andy 13 advice, or just orals, as I loose a good amount of my gains even using the gainskeeper formula, anyway the main answer I was looking to get regarding my question was a practical use of the theory in a cycle like mine.

Zyg and Andy thanks for your answers.
 
In math only the ideal of front loading it great. It gets the levels up real fast.

The question is: Is it safer to allow your body a few weeks to adjust to the increased levels?

It can't be wise to inject 1200mgs of Deca in one day.

A slower increase would keep water bloat, strech marks, be safer on your heart, and not so hard on your tendons/joints.
 
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ryker77 said:
In math only the ideal of front loading it great. It gets the levels up real fast.

The question is: Is it safer to allow your body a few weeks to adjust to the increased levels?

It can't be wise to inject 1200mgs in one day.

A slower increase would keep water bloat, strech marks, be safer on your heart, and not so hard on your tendons/joints.

These are good points to consider.

I think no one can argue about the potential benefits of front-loading with short esters in order to get blood level up quickly. And I think for more experienced users, this is a great strategy.

I think though that this should be be carefully considered whenever someone is less experienced. I know that for my self, the first time I would (if I ever *did* of course, hehe, after all, ....) ever use any Test, I would WANT a more gradual ramp-up, to sort of see how things are going, see how I react, etc.

And the issues regarding potential bloat, stretch marks (good pt), and what I said about acne (which is not "Fact" per se, its just an observation based on seeing peoplke reactions) are things which may mak it a good idea for a relative newbie to go ahead and LET the longer acting ester create a moire gradual ramp-up of levels within their system.

But for the experienced guys, yeah, creating an overal stategy which allows them to maximize effectiveness by creating a high and relatively constant blood level is very smart.
 
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