21 yo bulking - jaw surgery

[dh92]

Hi, guys.

I am going to undergo orthognathic surgery in about 5 months' time. My lower jaw is being advanced to fix my underbite. I have been training steadily since November 2011 and have increased my weight from 50 kilos to 65 kilos.

Age: 21
Height: 1,73m
Body fat percentage: 8%
Training schedule: 5 days a week, usually 2 hours a day split up

My diet hasn't always been 100% under control. For the past couple of months, however, it's been my main focus and I can safely say that it's under control now. I usually start off with 6 egg whites, 1 egg yolk. Then 3 to 4 additional meals: 200 grams of lean protein each, brown rice or sweet potatoes on the side, 1 slice of pineapple. Add to that, usually 2 to 3 mass building protein shakes inbetween meals.

When I have orthognathic surgery, I only have to follow a soft foods diet. Apparently I will only lose 1 kg max. But I still want to bulk up.

Because I'm hesitant of steroids at my age (took steroids for 1 week when I was 20 and then stopped), my personal trainer (and steroid supplier) recommended HGH - I asked him which way I could gain muscle mass safely, in small amounts (I would love to gain muscle mass, but I don't want to gain THAT much; the balloon animal look isn't for me) and not lose it. I wanted to try IGF or MGF because only certain muscle groups need additional size (chest, arms), but he said no, HGH, is the way to go.

Since then, I have developed a greater desire to bulk up. So, I adjusted my limits. I asked him for advice on 1 mass bulking cycle. His recommendation: Primobolan, Equipoise (+ maybe Test?).

Will HGH/anabolic steroids have a negative effect on the outcome of orthognathic surgery? Is it too risky? HGH increases jaw size and I don't want to screw around with my jaw anymore than I have to.
Is my diet as perfect as I would want to believe it is?
Is it at all a good idea to run a mass bulking cycle before orthognathic surgery?
The idea of just running 1 'ol cycle and then never taking steroids again is make believe bullshit, right?
HGH versus anabolic steroids? 1 or the other?
Should I just stay away from everything instead?

I am about to go on a raw vegan diet. What influence would that have on my natural training/training on juice?

I sometimes just feel as if I want to go on one cycle and swell and have a normal guy's size and then that would be it. I don't know whether or not the cycle should take place before or after the orthognathic surgery.

I welcome all advice.

 

[Mr. Chicago]

65 kilos and you're about to go on a raw vegan diet to bulk haha jesus christ my man. First off, I think you're way too small and could easily bulk without any drugs or even natural supplements. If you want to bulk you have to eat regardless of any drug you may take so at this point I would advise a revamped diet and keep your training up. As far as the theory of 1 cycle and stopping, yeah it's possible but after seeing the results many are hooked but it's a personal decision whether to do it again or not. To be honest I would give you some bulking diet tips but wouldn't even know what to suggest for a raw vegan diet, could you even eat quinoa? Nuts are good but that's about all I know to recommend without doing more research haha why raw vegan bro?

 

[dh92]

65 kilos and you're about to go on a raw vegan diet to bulk haha jesus christ my man. First off, I think you're way too small and could easily bulk without any drugs or even natural supplements. If you want to bulk you have to eat regardless of any drug you may take so at this point I would advise a revamped diet and keep your training up. As far as the theory of 1 cycle and stopping, yeah it's possible but after seeing the results many are hooked but it's a personal decision whether to do it again or not. To be honest I would give you some bulking diet tips but wouldn't even know what to suggest for a raw vegan diet, could you even eat quinoa? Nuts are good but that's about all I know to recommend without doing more research haha why raw vegan bro?

Hi, man. Thanks for the reply.

I am not considering a raw vegan diet in order to help with bulking. I am simply considering a raw vegan diet for health reasons. Raw vegan diet wouldn't be ideal for bulking, obviously. I haven't thought of raw vegan diet + way to bulk up yet.

At 65 kilos, I am small. You're right. Perhaps that's why I am so interested in taking up gear. The typical psychology: small guy wanting to be big. At 65 kilos I look tiny in comparison to other 65 kg guys.

Please give any diet tips you have (doesn't have to be raw vegan at all)....

 

[Mr. Chicago]

When I started high school I was about your size, by the time I hit junior year 2 years later I was 225+. I would drink almost gallon of whole milk a day, size up 1000 mass gainer drinks, but never use a supplement as a meal replacement, only to add to your already 6+ meal a day diet. Frozen pizzas a couple times a week haha seriously look at the nutrition facts on a frozen pizza it's a mass gainers dream. Tuna with mayo, chicken breasts with mayo, turkey with mayo haha you need the calories and if you train hard you'll earn the right to eat like a pig, and at your size you truly need to anyway. Several egg omelettes with cheese, toast/bagel, maybe some oatmeal or quinoa and a meat for breakfast. Have a can of tuna a couple hours later. Fry up some chicken breasts or fish for lunch with some rice and mixed veggies. Maybe a protein shake or mass gainer a couple hours later. A cheeseburger or some kind of ground beef for dinner, maybe a steak and again with some veggies and a sweet potato or regular potato. A couple hours later repeat one of the meals or make something else you like, again you don't have to count calories to bulk, you just have to EAT! Frozen fruit smoothies with greek yogurt and a lil milk. I also whip up some protein powder in my plain greek yogurt and make a chocolate pudding.

 

[dh92]

When I started high school I was about your size, by the time I hit junior year 2 years later I was 225+. I would drink almost gallon of whole milk a day, size up 1000 mass gainer drinks, but never use a supplement as a meal replacement, only to add to your already 6+ meal a day diet. Frozen pizzas a couple times a week haha seriously look at the nutrition facts on a frozen pizza it's a mass gainers dream. Tuna with mayo, chicken breasts with mayo, turkey with mayo haha you need the calories and if you train hard you'll earn the right to eat like a pig, and at your size you truly need to anyway. Several egg omelettes with cheese, toast/bagel, maybe some oatmeal or quinoa and a meat for breakfast. Have a can of tuna a couple hours later. Fry up some chicken breasts or fish for lunch with some rice and mixed veggies. Maybe a protein shake or mass gainer a couple hours later. A cheeseburger or some kind of ground beef for dinner, maybe a steak and again with some veggies and a sweet potato or regular potato. A couple hours later repeat one of the meals or make something else you like, again you don't have to count calories to bulk, you just have to EAT! Frozen fruit smoothies with greek yogurt and a lil milk. I also whip up some protein powder in my plain greek yogurt and make a chocolate pudding.

No offence, but I can tell why you bulked. The food you chowed down on would not exactly count as healthy. I am interested in eating an extremely clean diet. No mayo, no burgers, no pizzas, no dairy, no bread. I would only eat some of your suggested meals as a cheat meal once or twice a week.

 

[bonacris]

No offence, but I can tell why you bulked. The food you chowed down on would not exactly count as healthy. I am interested in eating an extremely clean diet. No mayo, no burgers, no pizzas, no dairy, no bread. I would only eat some of your suggested meals as a cheat meal once or twice a week.

You really think bodybuilders got big by eating chicken and rice 7 times a day everyday.. no you need a reality check. If you can't gain mass with out steroids then you won't keep the mass you do gain on cycle. Simple as that

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[dh92]

You really think bodybuilders got big by eating chicken and rice 7 times a day everyday.. no you need a reality check. If you can't gain mass with out steroids then you won't keep the mass you do gain on cycle. Simple as that

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Perhaps I need somewhat of a reality check, but so do some bodybuilders then. I don't consider gaining "mass" from eating 50% healthy and 50% garbage at all times as something to be proud of. In essence, you swell because you're getting fat. Then years later, you do cutting cycles to get rid of that fat. In REALITY, you could have stayed lean and gradually increased your muscle mass, but NO. We are both looking for quick fixes, our definitions of a "good" quick fix differ, that's all.

 

[bonacris]

Perhaps I need somewhat of a reality check, but so do some bodybuilders then. I don't consider gaining "mass" from eating 50% healthy and 50% garbage at all times as something to be proud of. In essence, you swell because you're getting fat. Then years later, you do cutting cycles to get rid of that fat. In REALITY, you could have stayed lean and gradually increased your muscle mass, but NO. We are both looking for quick fixes, our definitions of a "good" quick fix differ, that's all.

I have never in my life been over 12%. I don't eat super clean but I enjoy my food.. I'll eat fast food and fried chicken and drink coke and use sauces on my food.. Nobody would ever call me fat. I started lifting at 137lbs. I gained 30 lbs in my 1st year from eating everything in sight and training like a mad man.. my bf increased maybe 2% so it's not like you will will suddenly become 18% Bf.

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[dh92]

I have never in my life been over 12%. I don't eat super clean but I enjoy my food.. I'll eat fast food and fried chicken and drink coke and use sauces on my food.. Nobody would ever call me fat. I started lifting at 137lbs. I gained 30 lbs in my 1st year from eating everything in sight and training like a mad man.. my bf increased maybe 2% so it's not like you will will suddenly become 18% Bf.

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My body fat percentage has always been between 8% and 10% and I am way too careful to tolerate any number beyond that. I can eat fast food, fried chicken and I know people won't call me fat either. The problem is, my first year of training I also didn't care about a healthy diet, I ate everything and I gained a lot of weight. Some of it muscle, some of it fat. But suddenly I had the face of a chipmunk and a good body. Since then, I've been training harder, eating cleaner and gaining less. But I have a skinny face again, thank God. I want to know, taking into account that gear isn't an option, how do I make clean eating synonymous with good bulking. How can I do both at the same time?

 

[bonacris]

My body fat percentage has always been between 8% and 10% and I am way too careful to tolerate any number beyond that. I can eat fast food, fried chicken and I know people won't call me fat either. The problem is, my first year of training I also didn't care about a healthy diet, I ate everything and I gained a lot of weight. Some of it muscle, some of it fat. But suddenly I had the face of a chipmunk and a good body. Since then, I've been training harder, eating cleaner and gaining less. But I have a skinny face again, thank God. I want to know, taking into account that gear isn't an option, how do I make clean eating synonymous with good bulking. How can I do both at the same time?

Clean eating and good bulking don't really go hand in hand.. A lean bulk is a very slow steady process. That's why so many people will bulk for 6 months and cut for 6 month (guys that aren't on gear). Have you ever tried to eat 4000cals of very clean food. It's a hell of a lot of food

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[dh92]

Clean eating and good bulking don't really go hand in hand.. A lean bulk is a very slow steady process. That's why so many people will bulk for 6 months and cut for 6 month (guys that aren't on gear). Have you ever tried to eat 4000cals of very clean food. It's a hell of a lot of food

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No, I guess, I haven't. I should find someone to tell me about it then. And a bulking cycle with clean eating also not helpful?

 

[Mr. Chicago]

You weigh 140 fucking pounds soaking wet, I'm amazed you even have 8%BF to be honest. You don't want to bulk otherwise you would have already, you want to gain a couple pounds a year and stay a lean muscle less little guy, which is fine but what in the world would even make you consider using sauce if you don't want to blow up? You could eat clean as you want but like bonacris said if you had to eat even 3,000 cals like you want to a day you would never get there and you would be sick of it in a week. You say you want to bulk up bc you have a surgery coming up then do it. I had a bad accident 4 years back, went into the hospital at 230 came out 6 weeks later at 142 lbs. It took me 2 years to gain the weight back but I did it. You think it was easy going back to the gym at 140 and putting up 95 lbs for 4 fucking reps? You're happy at 140 and afraid of a puffy face haha you sound like a manorexic to me in all honestly but either way good luck to you man in all your confusion, you're still young and unsure what you want to do. I was the same way a few years back, I would bounce back and forth whether I wanted to be 185-195 ripped to shreds fitness model look or 235-250 still ripped but side walk cracking heavy lifting talk of the gym. I could go from one or the other in the matter of several months with just diet and training. When you say bulk what are you talking, like 5 - 10 lbs. tops?

 

[rustilldown]

No, I guess, I haven't. I should find someone to tell me about it then. And a bulking cycle with clean eating also not helpful?

Oats eggs steak and natty pb. Mixed nuts.

Put 500 calories of mixed nuts into 1.5 cups plain fat free Greek yogurt. Add some cinnamon and a cup raw oats. Also add half scoop chocolate whey, drizzle with honey and munch out. Follow that with 4 tbsp natty peanut butter before bed. Fuck it's so easy to bulk while eating cleanish. . Just find high calorie foods that are low in sodium and sugar, and your face likely won't blow up. Especially not on gear... going on a vegan diet to bulk I can not offer advice on... I don't know what you would eat

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[rustilldown]

You weigh 140 fucking pounds soaking wet, I'm amazed you even have 8%BF to be honest. You don't want to bulk otherwise you would have already, you want to gain a couple pounds a year and stay a lean muscle less little guy, which is fine but what in the world would even make you consider using sauce if you don't want to blow up? You could eat clean as you want but like bonacris said if you had to eat even 3,000 cals like you want to a day you would never get there and you would be sick of it in a week. You say you want to bulk up bc you have a surgery coming up then do it. I had a bad accident 4 years back, went into the hospital at 230 came out 6 weeks later at 142 lbs. It took me 2 years to gain the weight back but I did it. You think it was easy going back to the gym at 140 and putting up 95 lbs for 4 fucking reps? You're happy at 140 and afraid of a puffy face haha you sound like a manorexic to me in all honestly but either way good luck to you man in all your confusion, you're still young and unsure what you want to do. I was the same way a few years back, I would bounce back and forth whether I wanted to be 185-195 ripped to shreds fitness model look or 235-250 still ripped but side walk cracking heavy lifting talk of the gym. I could go from one or the other in the matter of several months with just diet and training. When you say bulk what are you talking, like 5 - 10 lbs. tops?

This ^^

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[dh92]

You weigh 140 fucking pounds soaking wet, I'm amazed you even have 8%BF to be honest. You don't want to bulk otherwise you would have already, you want to gain a couple pounds a year and stay a lean muscle less little guy, which is fine but what in the world would even make you consider using sauce if you don't want to blow up? You could eat clean as you want but like bonacris said if you had to eat even 3,000 cals like you want to a day you would never get there and you would be sick of it in a week. You say you want to bulk up bc you have a surgery coming up then do it. I had a bad accident 4 years back, went into the hospital at 230 came out 6 weeks later at 142 lbs. It took me 2 years to gain the weight back but I did it. You think it was easy going back to the gym at 140 and putting up 95 lbs for 4 fucking reps? You're happy at 140 and afraid of a puffy face haha you sound like a manorexic to me in all honestly but either way good luck to you man in all your confusion, you're still young and unsure what you want to do. I was the same way a few years back, I would bounce back and forth whether I wanted to be 185-195 ripped to shreds fitness model look or 235-250 still ripped but side walk cracking heavy lifting talk of the gym. I could go from one or the other in the matter of several months with just diet and training. When you say bulk what are you talking, like 5 - 10 lbs. tops?

I do want to bulk! Just not by eating fried chicken and pizza the whole days. I want to be able to bulk while still following a clean diet. Did you even read my previous posts?

And if someone considers using sauce, wouldn't it be better to eat clean? You're already putting a lot of pressure on your system.

I'm not happy at 140, otherwise I would not have started this thread. I was manorexic when I was in high school. That's exactly why I want to bulk up. Sometimes I still catch a glimpse of that manorexic past. And it terrifies me.

Being young and unsure, I would rather want advice than jokes being made about me. I'm in on the joke, you laughing at the joke doesn't help anyone.

Help me become sure. I want to put on 15 kilos, that's my goal.
And why haven't I juiced before my surgery yet? Because some people tell me to go for it, then other people tell me to fuck off because I'm too young. Who should I count on?

 

[bonacris]

Well if you are undergoing surgery in a few months I would just put on a as much weight naturally.. If you can't eat while your are in PCT you will lose every pound you gain.. Mark my words.. bulk naturally, recover from surgery and then go from there.. but right now gear is not the answer

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[stevesmi]

why don't you do more research on proper diet and training?

read the sticky in the diet section on bulking. follow that

and then you need to learn how to lift ... you probably don't even work your legs properly. you have a lot of homework to do.

your trainer is trying to rape your wallet offering HGH, don't be a sucker. he will sell you bunk crap and you will lose hundreds for nothing.. that money should be invested in food.

and yes you need carbs to gain weight. I eat carbs after EVERY workout. and I eat healthy. you don't need to be scared to eat bro. carbs are even more important than protein, and 99% of internet guru's disagree with me on that but usually you find out they are some skinny kid with some abs. you want to get big you gotta eat big and you gotta lift big. when I started bulking I would order for two at dinner. learn to love food, otherwise you stand no chance. and work your fucking legs. squats, deads, compound lifts. standing in front of the mirror doing 25 pound curls isn't gonna do shit for you, yet I see skinny dudes doing that everytime I go to the gym. I barely ever do curls, you build arms doing rows, pulls and pullups.. not doing fucking curls like you see on youtube. its all for show

I wish you lived close to me and I would invite you to my gym and you would work out alongside me and you won't be able to walk out of the gym, that's the kind of intensity it takes. and for the love of allah EAT EAT EAT. protein shakes and all that shit is just the way pro's make money off dumb kids endorsing that shit. guess how many protein shakes I have drank in the past year.. maybe 1 or 2 at the most.. and the last time I dry heaved after drinking it. shit is nasty and my body doesn't want it, it wants real food.

 

[ibleedoranbla]

I do want to bulk! Just not by eating fried chicken and pizza the whole days. I want to be able to bulk while still following a clean diet. Did you even read my previous posts?

And if someone considers using sauce, wouldn't it be better to eat clean? You're already putting a lot of pressure on your system.

I'm not happy at 140, otherwise I would not have started this thread. I was manorexic when I was in high school. That's exactly why I want to bulk up. Sometimes I still catch a glimpse of that manorexic past. And it terrifies me.

Being young and unsure, I would rather want advice than jokes being made about me. I'm in on the joke, you laughing at the joke doesn't help anyone.

Help me become sure. I want to put on 15 kilos, that's my goal.
And why haven't I juiced before my surgery yet? Because some people tell me to go for it, then other people tell me to fuck off because I'm too young. Who should I count on?

I eat 4000 clean calories everyday; so, it can be done. Don't do a raw vegan diet, I tried that and it's terrible. If you do, just be prepared.

I'm just like you my man but the complete opposite, if I look at food I gain weight and not the good kind. I was obese my entire life. I was 350 pounds when I graduated form high school at probably 30%+ bf. I'm now 260 and about 14% and it's all attributed to good diet and proper training. I have never taken AAS before.

Everyone on here is right tho, if you are a hard gainer you are going to have to eat a ton of dirty calories, if you want to get big quick. However, if you want to eat clean and don't mind getting bigger gradually, then you can most definitely eat 4000+ calories of clean food a day. I even go as far as eating 95% all organic. If you chose to go the high calorie clean eating way just be prepared to have a $200-$300 grocery bill a week.

 

[ibleedoranbla]

why don't you do more research on proper diet and training?

read the sticky in the diet section on bulking. follow that

and then you need to learn how to lift ... you probably don't even work your legs properly. you have a lot of homework to do.

your trainer is trying to rape your wallet offering HGH, don't be a sucker. he will sell you bunk crap and you will lose hundreds for nothing.. that money should be invested in food.

and yes you need carbs to gain weight. I eat carbs after EVERY workout. and I eat healthy. you don't need to be scared to eat bro. carbs are even more important than protein, and 99% of internet guru's disagree with me on that but usually you find out they are some skinny kid with some abs. you want to get big you gotta eat big and you gotta lift big. when I started bulking I would order for two at dinner. learn to love food, otherwise you stand no chance. and work your fucking legs. squats, deads, compound lifts. standing in front of the mirror doing 25 pound curls isn't gonna do shit for you, yet I see skinny dudes doing that everytime I go to the gym. I barely ever do curls, you build arms doing rows, pulls and pullups.. not doing fucking curls like you see on youtube. its all for show

I wish you lived close to me and I would invite you to my gym and you would work out alongside me and you won't be able to walk out of the gym, that's the kind of intensity it takes. and for the love of allah EAT EAT EAT. protein shakes and all that shit is just the way pro's make money off dumb kids endorsing that shit.

This is probably the best reply in this entire thread. Read it and then read it again.

 

[Mr. Chicago]

^^^ Yessir! And no one is laughing at you bro. I didn't realize you struggled with that, my gf used to be bullemic and I'm always careful not to push food on her or say anything stupid so I apologize. If you have the money by all means eat clean as you want but you're going to have to do so like an animal, no 3-4 meals a day shit, every 2 hours and then some. You have to fight the urge to cut back on cals bc of your self image and struggles with food, but if you stick with it you'll be able to turn that extra weight into rock hard muscle. You can't gain muscle without putting a lil bit of weight on first bro, good luck.

 

[Mr. Chicago]

I eat 4000 clean calories everyday; so, it can be done. Don't do a raw vegan diet, I tried that and it's terrible. If you do, just be prepared.

I'm just like you my man but the complete opposite, if I look at food I gain weight and not the good kind. I was obese my entire life. I was 350 pounds when I graduated form high school at probably 30%+ bf. I'm now 260 and about 14% and it's all attributed to good diet and proper training. I have never taken AAS before.

Everyone on here is right tho, if you are a hard gainer you are going to have to eat a ton of dirty calories, if you want to get big quick. However, if you want to eat clean and don't mind getting bigger gradually, then you can most definitely eat 4000+ calories of clean food a day. I even go as far as eating 95% all organic. If you chose to go the high calorie clean eating way just be prepared to have a $200-$300 grocery bill a week.

This is good advice too!

 

[Farting]

I think somebody posted a similar thread on and it might have been you. Don't do it dude. Don't look for that one answer that says it might be okay. When the overwhelming reply is no just listen to those people. why does the word s t e r o i d o lo g y not appear?

 

[dh92]

Guys, would a cutting cycle be any different from a bulking cycle? Would all gains from a cutting cycle before jaw surgery also be lost?

 

[dh92]

I think somebody posted a similar thread on and it might have been you. Don't do it dude. Don't look for that one answer that says it might be okay. When the overwhelming reply is no just listen to those people. why does the word s t e r o i d o lo g y not appear?

It most probably was me. Just wanted to share some further info and ask some more questions. I still haven't done anything. My doctor told me that I would only be on a soft foods diet, not a liquid diet. Weight loss: 1kg max.

But still, my mind never stops thinking...

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ yeah okay. i'm sure your doc is capable of guestimating how much weight you will lose just by looking at you.

it doesn't work like that

if you are a real lifter and stop lifting weights and eating like a bodybuilder then you will lose many pounds... because your body is over built as it is

 

[dh92]

I've had two cycles suggested to me by my personal trainer, a fitness model.

First cycle:

1 ml - 300 mg Primobolan
1 ml - 500 mg Sustanon 250
1/2 ml - 200 mg Boldenon

2 x week

1 mg Arimidex each day, 20 mg Turinabol each day

Second cycle (don't have all the specifics):

300 mg Primobolan
Equipoise
HGH
Test (possibly, my suggestion to my personal trainer)

Hopefully Arimidex will fall part of the cycle as well, but if Test isn't added, apparently I don't need it.

Please share any or all considerations.

 

[bonacris]

You really don't listen, do you?

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[dh92]

You really don't listen, do you?

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Everything on this forum doesn't have to translate to reality. I'm asking you guys for advice, that's all. I'm not even close to making up my mind about anything. I just want to feel things out. Don't assume the worst, because it REALLY REALLY may just be a case of me asking. I, at least, like being informed, whether I take steroids or not.

 

[bonacris]

So let's look at the cycle.
Primo
Sust
Eq

That was one cycle yeah.. how do you react to these compounds?

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[dh92]

So let's look at the cycle.
Primo
Sust
Eq

That was one cycle yeah.. how do you react to these compounds?

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How do I react to these compounds? Well, I don't know yet.

 

[bonacris]

How do I react to these compounds? Well, I don't know yet.

Exactly.. you do 1 compound on your 1st cycle.. If you start getting issues which drug is causing it? You have no clue. So testosterone is all you should do for a 1st cycle

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[dh92]

Exactly.. you do 1 compound on your 1st cycle.. If you start getting issues which drug is causing it? You have no clue. So testosterone is all you should do for a 1st cycle

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Just plain Test? No Test E, Test P?
What about DHT and hair loss?

 

[bonacris]

Just plain Test? No Test E, Test P?
What about DHT and hair loss?

Test is test regardless of ester. The ester is up to you. Dht and hair loss is different for everyone. I don't lose hair with test but I do with out compounds. Nobody can predict how you will react

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[dh92]

Test is test regardless of ester. The ester is up to you. Dht and hair loss is different for everyone. I don't lose hair with test but I do with out compounds. Nobody can predict how you will react

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The reason I was considering stacking a couple of compounds was simply because I don't plan on using gear more than once or twice (YEAH, I KNOW, WAIT TILL LATER, I'LL CHANGE MY TUNE). If I'm going to do 1 or 2 cycles, I want them to be worth it.