1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

[pa1ad]

You are starting to babble Pat. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Androgens are inhibitive. It is not like gyno, where the two play opposing roles and the ratio is most important. The lower androgen and estrogen levels post cycle, even if differently balanced, serve only to increase LH. With your logic non-aromatizable androgens would stimulate the HPTA.

I am quite certain you are misunderstanding Mauro's explaination of how hypogonadrotropic hypogonadism is characterized.

It is what Mauro said Bill. anti-estrogens tend to work well on those with a low testosterone to estrogen ratio and low LH

Yes, the absolute levels of the androgens and estrogens are below normal but that does not mean that anti-estrogens cannot still increase LH output in this state.

Unless you have some evidence that they cannot? I provided evidence in that case study with the clomid guy that they can, and Mauro pretty clearly is saying that they can

 

[pa1ad]

Because you are using it for a very short period of time post-cycle. It is difficult to guess exactly how much to use so that testicular mass is maintained, yet the testes are not overstimulated, if you are taking it throughout the course of the cycle. If you have the perfect dosing routine for this I am all ears.

Bill, HCG is not traditionally used continuously throughout the cycle. It is used for short periods intermittently throughout the cycle.

No one knows the perfect dosing regimen for either during or post cycle use.

 

[pa1ad]

Elevating LH while the testes are tiny makes as much sense as putting dual quads on a three cylinder engine.

then why would one use HCG? After all you are basically increasing LH levels for all intents and purposes.

ONe can increase LH high enough to kick start the testes without using HCG by using anti-estrogens.

The key here is to raise gonadotropin levels high enough to prime the testes. In some cases this requires HCG but in many cases anti-estrogens are good enough.

Mauro made this quite clear in his letter

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: 1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

Sorry to be the asshole once again Pat, but where does Mesterolone fit in ? Its probably the best libido booster in the world, yet it does not aromatize. Its an anti-aromatase.

You have no idea what you are talking about big cat

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: QUESTION for PA and BILL

There is no rebound. Estrogen is actually lower post-cycle than pre. Since you get a good amount of estrogen from extragonadal sources however, you do get an imbalance (androgens get suppressed more extensively).

- Bill

It is quite possible that estrogen depletion, whether through the use of non-aromatizing androges or through the use of anti-estrogens, can cause an up-regulation of aromatase. Hence an imbalance of estrogen to testosterone in the post-cycle period

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

For some reason without an in-vivo Human study you will never convince Pat of this.

There is not even in-vitro evidence that it is an anti-aromatase. It may very well be but I certainly am not going to say its for certain without evidence

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

Hey Bill,

Can you just answer the following for me?

You must agree that these long term suppressed subjects of Mauros with the low LH and low test/estrogen ratio are undoubtedly suffering from testicular atrophy, correct?

And you noticed that Mauro said that anti-estrogens often are sufficient to restore testosteorne production in these subjects. Correct?

Does this not completely contradict your theory that anti-estrogens are useless for those with testicular atrophy?

Furthermore, these subjects are hypogonadotropic and so must therefore have lower than normal estrogen levels, correct? Why then are anti-estrogens still working in these people? That too seems to contradict what you have been saying?


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[pa1ad]

Here is the one that I reference regarding the post-cycle recovery of gonadotropins and T. I know I posted this before.

Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

Here, blood hormone levels were monitored before, during, and after a long cycle of test enanthate (250mg weekly). LH levels started to rise withing a few weeks after the last shot, while T was still declining, but there was no significant movement in endogenous testosterone production for about 10 weeks.

So Bill, are you assuming that the effect (qualitatively speaking) of ALL steroids (or combinations thereof) on the HPTA are just like testosterone at 250mg a week? You think that you can make a blanket statement (that post cycle recovery is typically characterized by a hypergonadotropic hypogonadal state) based on ONE study using a low dose of testosterone?

Also, where in this study do they demonstrate that anti-estrogen treatment is ineffective in accelerating the testicular recovery?

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

It is what Mauro said Bill. anti-estrogens tend to work well on those with a low testosterone to estrogen ratio and low LH

Yes, the absolute levels of the androgens and estrogens are below normal but that does not mean that anti-estrogens cannot still increase LH output in this state.

I never said anti-estrogens didn't work on these people. I just said that your claim that the ratio was important was way, way incorrect.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: QUESTION for PA and BILL

It is quite possible that estrogen depletion, whether through the use of non-aromatizing androges or through the use of anti-estrogens, can cause an up-regulation of aromatase. Hence an imbalance of estrogen to testosterone in the post-cycle period

That is an interesting idea actually Pat. I can't imagine that with the loss of gonadal estrogens levels could really be elevated post-cycle though. Right now IMO there is no evidence to support a true estrogen rebound, but certainly there is to support a rebound imbalanced T/E ratio.