1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

[Bill Llewellyn]

I thought that estrogen came from aromatization AND some other sources(I have no idea where)

Estrogen comes from androgens aromatized in the testes, as well as other tissues. There is an imbalance post cycle, because although you diminish gonadal source of estrogen, you still have it from androstenedione aromatization in other tissues.

thats why you need nolva, not just anastrozle when using HCG. Its also the consensus of most steroid users I know of that HCG prolongs recovery, because the HPTA recognizes the elevation in LH and ceases production of LH.

The hypothalamus reads the elevated estrogen, not LH. HCG is therefore not inhibitive here until it starts working and T/E levels come back up. But overused it most certainly can prolong recovery.

Most steroid users sorely misunderstand what is going on unfortunately. I think we have been debating the technical specifics of this issue pretty well here though, and I thought my case was well stated. But it seems you have missed it.

I guess the best point made in the whole thread was 1fast400's after all.

Maybe Pat and I should just arm wrestle next time.


- Bill

 

[1fast400]

Thanks bill


P.S. I sell the sh*t out of your book here, yet still get questions that are easily answered by pulling the same book I sold them and pointing to the page.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

P.S. I sell the sh*t out of your book here, yet still get questions that are easily answered by pulling the same book I sold them and pointing to the page.

Thanks for the support 1F4. I appreciate it. As for the humerous questions, we should chat sometime. I've got a long list of them

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

If HCG increases testicular mass independent of LH and FSH levels would it be more useful to use HCG during the cycle to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place?

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

If HCG increases testicular mass independent of LH and FSH levels would it be more useful to use HCG during the cycle to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place?

In theory this is just as good or better than trying to fix testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle. But the potential issues such as LH desensitization and increased estrogen with HCG, IMO, make it safer to use for a short period at the end of the cycle.

 

[pa1ad]

Yes of course, but you have to remember he is dealing with people who have long-term hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They need to get LH levels up, as this is at the root of their problem. The people we are speaking about here do not have the same problem, and do restore LH levels quickly (well before testosterone) on their own. They need to get the testes up to speed more quickly than waiting for LH to do the job on its own.

[/B]

This we can agree on, but I will also remind you that the dragging issue post cycle is not LH. LH will reach normal or supraphysiological levels rather quickly without the use of an anti-estrogen, and even with, will not reach a point where it is rapidly affecting testicular mass without the concurrent use of HCG. I feel that in many regards by lowering androgen and estrogen inhibition (removing exogenous steroid) we have done much of the job of the AE already. Levels are low enough to produce a surge in gonadotropins after all, that says a lot.



I recommend HCG because for the normal steroid user who has LH levels return within a couple of weeks, it more directly addresses the core issue of testicular atrophy. This is the group that I am speaking to, and I'm sure the same group Mauro is suggesting gets better benifit from HCG as well. This drug does have issues, which is why I recommend short-term use instead of regular on-cycle use like BR.

I do not disagree that Mauro in on the mark with his patients. Clearly there is a group, those with perisitently low LH levels, that are much better served better by anti-estrogens.


What I hope we can agree on are:

1) The healthy bodybuilder, not suffering a prolonged condition, should restore gonadotropins first, and T much later due to atrophy of the testes.

2) In this group HCG is more effective at shortening the post-cycle window, as it directly "stimulates the machinery" so to speak.

3) anti-estrogens are most effective at stimulating testosterone when LH is low, and estrogen levels normal to high.

4) There are issues with HCG, and as such it should be used cautiously and probably always with an anti-estrogen.

5) Hypoandrogenism is quite encompassing, and includes a number of different medical conditions. There are validy some where anti-estrogens are the preferred method of treatment, probably moreso than HCG. But the healthy group most relevant to us should consider HCG the more effective post-cycle drug than AE's. [/B]

The healthy group can get testosterone production back in a timely fashion using anti-estrogens alone. Or maybe all those blood tests I have seen over the years were filled with typos?

 

[pa1ad]

If HCG increases testicular mass independent of LH and FSH levels would it be more useful to use HCG during the cycle to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place?

Yes, this is how I have always thought it should be used. And anti-estrogens post cycle

 

[pa1ad]

In theory this is just as good or better than trying to fix testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle. But the potential issues such as LH desensitization and increased estrogen with HCG, IMO, make it safer to use for a short period at the end of the cycle.

Why would LH desensitization be less likely to happen when you use it post cycle as opposed to using it intermittently during the cycle? Why is estrogen elevation ok for the short period after the cycle and not during the cycle?

Also, why is increased estrogen such a problem during the cycle if you are already taking androgens that aromatize as part of your cycle? And if you are afraid of the estrogen from the HCG during the cycle, why not just take anti-estrogens?

Take HCG during the cycle, and anti-estrogens after is good idea

 

[pa1ad]

3) anti-estrogens are most effective at stimulating testosterone when LH is low, and estrogen levels normal to high.
[/B] [/B]

Mauro made it quite clear that it is low testosterone/estrogen ratio that is the factor here and not high absolute estrogen levels.

I have seen many a bodybuilder post cycle with a low test/estrogen ratio. These bodybuilders should be able to stimulate their gonadotropins effectively with anti-estrogens and therefore shorten the time that their testes come back to order. They can use HCG perhaps and get their testes back quicker, however there may be a temporary secondary suppression after HCG is ceased.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Mauro made it quite clear that it is low testosterone/estrogen ratio that is the factor here and not high absolute estrogen levels.

You are starting to babble Pat. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Androgens are inhibitive. It is not like gyno, where the two play opposing roles and the ratio is most important. The lower androgen and estrogen levels post cycle, even if differently balanced, serve only to increase LH. With your logic non-aromatizable androgens would stimulate the HPTA.

I am quite certain you are misunderstanding Mauro's explaination of how hypogonadrotropic hypogonadism is characterized.