1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

My comment about the dual quads on the three cylinder engine is taken out of the context of my previous statements. I assert that it makes sense to keep the testes at full functioning capacity during the cycle to reduce natural testosterone recovery time as it must take time for the atrophied testes to reach full functional size, hence a longer recovery period. If you only have x number of leydig cells that produce a maximum of y units of testosterone each you can only produce a maximum of xy units of testosterone. If you start recovery with 2x number of leydig cells which produce a maximum of y units of testosterone each then you can produce a maximum of 2xy units of testosterone. Why drown them in synthetic LH and wait for the testes to hypertrophy in response to the increased demand when you can start recovering post cycle at full working potential?

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Thats the answer that i thought you were going to give, but you miss my point.

If they had testicular atrophy (which you agreed that they must have had) then according to you simply raising LH would not be sufficient to restore testosterone production. Yet anti-estrogens enough were sufficient, Mauro made that quite clear. This is where your theory completely breaks down.

Even just restoring LH to physiological levels would accomplish this. Of course it will counter atrophy, just as waiting without anything but your own LH will. It doesn't "kick the babies back in gear" though, which is what we want to happen when spending $$ on post-cycle drugs.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

My comment about the dual quads on the three cylinder engine is taken out of the context of my previous statements. I assert that it makes sense to keep the testes at full functioning capacity during the cycle to reduce natural testosterone recovery time as it must take time for the atrophied testes to reach full functional size, hence a longer recovery period. If you only have x number of leydig cells that produce a maximum of y units of testosterone each you can only produce a maximum of xy units of testosterone. If you start recovery with 2x number of leydig cells which produce a maximum of y units of testosterone each then you can produce a maximum of 2xy units of testosterone. Why drown them in synthetic LH and wait for the testes to hypertrophy in response to the increased demand when you can start recovering post cycle at full working potential?

You don't actually grow new cells. Your present ones just increase or decrease in mass.

Your theory makes sense, but I reiterate that it is a guessing game with unwelcome consequences if you are wrong.

 

[pa1ad]

Even just restoring LH to physiological levels would accomplish this. Of course it will counter atrophy, just as waiting without anything but your own LH will. It doesn't "kick the babies back in gear" though, which is what we want to happen when spending $$ on post-cycle drugs.

So why didn't Mauro use HCG on these subjects also? I think I know the answer but I would like to hear yours

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

So why didn't Mauro use HCG on these subjects also? I think I know the answer but I would like to hear yours

It does not address the issue at hand I think, and I'll admit possibly could even interfere with HP recovery. If you focus on the HP with an anti-estrogen, the testes should come up to speed slowly without issue. This I am not debating at all.

If you read his letter again though, you will see that there are situations (those which relate most to the healthy BB mind you) where he states that HCG is more effective than AE. It is a few pages back, but remember when Mauro stated, "As such, stimulating the testicular machinery and getting it up to par may make the whole process as efficient, and perhaps in some cases more efficient (if the HP axis recovers quickly) as using anti-estrogens.".

Read: If the HP axis recoverys quickly (i.e. is healthy), HCG can make the recovery process more efficient than AE's.

 

[blackdream71]

holy shit you two are like an old married couple bickering,LOL, but you both have interesting and valid points...

 

[Big Cat HH]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

You have no idea what you are talking about big cat

Do I not ? Ok, then, I'll prove it :

Arch Sex Behav 1985 Dec;14(6):539-48 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Human male sexual functions do not require aromatization of testosterone: a study using tamoxifen, testolactone, and dihydrotestosterone.

Gooren LJ.

This study was designed to examine whether testosterone needs to be converted to estradiol in order to exert fully its effects on sexuality in the human male. Administration of the estrogen receptor antagonist tamoxifen and the aromatase inhibitor testolactone were without effect on parameters of sexual functions. Replacement of testosterone substitution therapy of agonadal men by dihydrotestosterone was likewise not associated with any change of sexual functioning. Administration of dihydrotestosterone to eugonadal men led to a transient increase of nocturnal sexual dreams and erections and irritability, waning after 3-4 weeks of dihydrotestosterone administration. It is concluded that aromatization of testosterone is not required and that dihydrotestosterone maintains sexual functions in the adult male with an established sex life.

There you have it, estrogen does not effect libido. Period.so now will you stop talking to me like a little child and tell me where mesterolone fits in ? I mean if estrogen is needed for libido, kindly explain the above study. Thank you.

 

[wardog]

Well gentlemen, I find this debate VERY educational, especially since I have recently argued that you should use post-cycle therapy with 1-test and I was slammed pretty hard, being told it wasnt needed.

Anyway, looking at this from a totally different angle, Bill is stating that testicle size must return ASAP to bring levels of nat test back online (from my interpretation) Now as a fina user, I saw that testicle shrinkage occours slowly..it isnt like they go to rasins overnight. THEREFORE, if testicle size is imperative, wouldnt this mean it is better to do shorter cycles, (i.e. 4 weeks, as opposed to 8 or 12) when using a hard shutdown combo like fina and test, and just go with higher dosages of the androgens? From what I read, your body begins shutting down as soon as ANY outside androgen is introduced, no matter the dosage level. In other words, the gradual decline will go at the same rate if I am using 250mg/week or 1 gram a week of test. I know it is diminishing returns as I raise my androgen levels, but it seems from your debate here, that it would be wiser to do say

weeks 1-4 100/mg test prop/day
75/mg TA/day

versus

weeks 1-8 50/mg test prop/day
37/mg TA/day

I am not saying I will get as great of gains off the 4 week cycle, yet it should be within perhaps 75% of the gains off the 8 week cycle, and I should be able to keep a higher percentage of those gains due to faster testicular recovery time, because they shrank less, therefore it takes less time for them to recover.

Am I completely off base here? If so, Pat and Bill please tell me, I am just trying to learn here and it is not too often I get to hear the opinions of two experts.

Thanks!

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I am not saying I will get as great of gains off the 4 week cycle, yet it should be within perhaps 75% of the gains off the 8 week cycle, and I should be able to keep a higher percentage of those gains due to faster testicular recovery time, because they shrank less, therefore it takes less time for them to recover.

Am I completely off base here? If so, Pat and Bill please tell me, I am just trying to learn here and it is not too often I get to hear the opinions of two experts.

This type of schedule does make some sense actually. In theory it would avoid pronounced atrophy, and might even eliminate the need for recovery drugs altogether. I tend to think a month would be pushing it though, and might opt for 3 weeks on, 2 off or something myself. Maybe even the BT 2 on 2 off (did I just say that).

I would find it hard to start and stop like that myself though, and am more likey just to run the cycle and deal with atrophy later. But you certainly raise a good point.

- Bill

 

[riskybizz007]

Let me ask the gurus here a question. I'm doing a mild test cycle right now, was thinking of using 1AD or 1Test in the beginning for the 1st 2 weeks followed by a break then start up again when my test finishes.
What would be better, the 1st way or running it throughout?