1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

[pa1ad]

Pat, are we reading the same letter here?

Mauro is basically saying: I have these patients, who months after steroids are withdrawn suffer this type of dysfunction, and I need to treat them in this manner. But in most normal cases the HP (hypothalamic-pituitary) axis recovers first, with the testes more slowly responding to LH, which makes priming them with HCG more effective than Anti-estrogens. Please read his email more slowly.

Once again, his letter stands on its own merits. People here can read it and see what it says. All I know is that it confirms everything that i have held to be true about this subject. Whether or not it confirms or denies what you believe to be true is your business. I really don't have much more to say

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Once again, his letter stands on its own merits. People here can read it and see what it says. All I know is that it confirms everything that i have held to be true about this subject. Whether or not it confirms or denies what you believe to be true is your business. I really don't have much more to say

If that is how you want to read it, all the power to you Pat.

 

[1fast400]

People here can read it and see what it says

This is where the problem is. You have to have a general understanding/knowledge base to follow this conversation. I think many people (regardless of which board this was posted on) will be able to decipher the text and draw a conclusion. The general public (at least from what I experience in this store) just want to know the answer without doing the work behind it. If people come in and ask about which protein is the best, they don't care why, they just want to know which one. Some people don't comprehend the fact that science isn't always clear cut. There isn't always a yes or no answer. When reading this topic (which I've printed out and let some customers read) they just look at me and say, so what does this mean? It would be interesting to have another reputable mind debate this topic with you two. I've really enjoyed it and enjoy any topic you two engage in.

 

[pa1ad]

This is where the problem is. You have to have a general understanding/knowledge base to follow this conversation. I think many people (regardless of which board this was posted on) will be able to decipher the text and draw a conclusion. The general public (at least from what I experience in this store) just want to know the answer without doing the work behind it. If people come in and ask about which protein is the best, they don't care why, they just want to know which one. Some people don't comprehend the fact that science isn't always clear cut. There isn't always a yes or no answer. When reading this topic (which I've printed out and let some customers read) they just look at me and say, so what does this mean? It would be interesting to have another reputable mind debate this topic with you two. I've really enjoyed it and enjoy any topic you two engage in.

the bottom line that i hope people can conclude from Mauro's letter is that anti-estrogens can often be quite effective in restoring testosterone production after steroid cycles. that is all I want people to get from this

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

the bottom line that i hope people can conclude from Mauro's letter is that anti-estrogens can often be quite effective in restoring testosterone production after steroid cycles. that is all I want people to get from this

What I have been saying from the beginning is that in normal situations (not those who suffer a long-term hypogonadotropic dysfunction and are seeking medical treatment) LH returns much more rapidly than the testes do in their ability to respond to it. The testes are the weak link that drags out recovery, not LH, which you seemed to be stuck focusing on.

Did he Mauro not state almost exactly what I did? He said generally the HP axis (LH) recovers first, and it may take some time for the testes to be able to respond. With LH recovering quickly HCG is preferred over AE's for its ability to stimulate the "testicular machinery".

Pat, I think you are confusing his earlier comments about how he treats patients with long-term conditions with his later comments on how normally the whole HPTA rebounds in exactly the order I stated. Yes, there are numerous disorders characterized by low androgen levels, and some may respond to anti-estrogens while other may benefit mostly from HCG. But people with such conditions do not represent the average healthy bodybuilder, nor are they the subject of our discussion. These people should not be treating themselves with OTC products.

My bottom line is that bodybuilders need to stop relying solely on AE's, and start remembering HCG if they want to make any real progress here at all.

 

[pa1ad]

What I have been saying from the beginning is that in normal situations (not those who suffer a long-term hypogonadotropic dysfunction and are seeking medical treatment) LH returns much more rapidly than the testes do in their ability to respond to it. The testes are the weak link that drags out recovery, not LH, which you seemed to be stuck focusing on.

Did he Mauro not state almost exactly what I did? He said generally the HP axis (LH) recovers first, and it may take some time for the testes to be able to respond. With LH recovering quickly HCG is preferred over AE's for its ability to stimulate the "testicular machinery".

Pat, I think you are confusing his earlier comments about how he treats patients with long-term conditions with his later comments on how normally the whole HPTA rebounds in exactly the order I stated. Yes, there are numerous disorders characterized by low androgen levels, and some may respond to anti-estrogens while other may benefit mostly from HCG. But people with such conditions do not represent the average healthy bodybuilder, nor are they the subject of our discussion. These people should not be treating themselves with OTC products.

My bottom line is that bodybuilders need to stop relying solely on AE's, and start remembering HCG if they want to make any real progress here at all.

You seem fixated on thinking that LH returns quickly to normal in the "average" steroid user. And you base this on what, a study using 250mg of testosterone a week?

Bill, as I have stated before and will continue to state, i have always seen low LH and low testosterone in people coming off of prohormones and coming off of steorids. Additionally, these cases more often than not have high estrogen relative to their testosterone. This, Bill, is the typical bodybuilder coming off of steroids/prohormones as i know it and they respond quite well to anti-estrogens.

Now, some people that have been suppressed for longer periods have some pretty marked testicular atrophy and these people probably need HCG to get the testes back to size before the whole HPTA kicks in.

I took issue to your blanket statement that anti-estrogens are useless in restoring testosterone in people coming off of steroids. I think Mauro made it quite clear that this is untrue. Furthermore, I have seen blood results of typical users get their testosterone levels back to high normal very quickly using anti-estrogens. All your theorizing based on one study using 250mg of test won't change the facts

 

[pa1ad]

What I have been saying from the beginning is that in normal situations (not those who suffer a long-term hypogonadotropic dysfunction and are seeking medical treatment) LH returns much more rapidly than the testes do in their ability to respond to it. The testes are the weak link that drags out recovery, not LH, which you seemed to be stuck focusing on.

Did he Mauro not state almost exactly what I did? He said generally the HP axis (LH) recovers first, and it may take some time for the testes to be able to respond. With LH recovering quickly HCG is preferred over AE's for its ability to stimulate the "testicular machinery".

Pat, I think you are confusing his earlier comments about how he treats patients with long-term conditions with his later comments on how normally the whole HPTA rebounds in exactly the order I stated. Yes, there are numerous disorders characterized by low androgen levels, and some may respond to anti-estrogens while other may benefit mostly from HCG. But people with such conditions do not represent the average healthy bodybuilder, nor are they the subject of our discussion. These people should not be treating themselves with OTC products.

My bottom line is that bodybuilders need to stop relying solely on AE's, and start remembering HCG if they want to make any real progress here at all.

OK, I want to see if we can reach some common ground here. Mauro stated that anti-estrogens alone do work on some of these long term users - users who undoubtedly have suffered some testicular atrophy. So, obviously LH does matter, in sofar as it is possible to increase LH using AE's and this increased LH is sufficient to stimulate the testes, even though they are in the atrophied state.

The way to look at this is that getting atrophied testicles back working you must "prime the pump". That is, you must increase gonadotropins in the body to high (hopefully supraphysiological levels) in order to wake up the sleepy gonads. This can be done using HCG, or in many circumstances it can be done using anti-estrogens.

I think you are too quick to recommend HCG to users. HCG can cause problems in and of itself (high estrogen levels and testicular insensitivity) and does not address the full axis. Yes, in many cases HCG is needed, but in the cases that it is not you are much better off stimulating the entire axis using anti-estrogens.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

OK, I want to see if we can reach some common ground here. Mauro stated that anti-estrogens alone do work on some of these long term users - users who undoubtedly have suffered some testicular atrophy. So, obviously LH does matter, in sofar as it is possible to increase LH using AE's and this increased LH is sufficient to stimulate the testes, even though they are in the atrophied state.

Yes of course, but you have to remember he is dealing with people who have long-term hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They need to get LH levels up, as this is at the root of their problem. The people we are speaking about here do not have the same problem, and do restore LH levels quickly (well before testosterone) on their own. They need to get the testes up to speed more quickly than waiting for LH to do the job on its own.

The way to look at this is that getting atrophied testicles back working you must "prime the pump". That is, you must increase gonadotropins in the body to high (hopefully supraphysiological levels) in order to wake up the sleepy gonads. This can be done using HCG, or in many circumstances it can be done using anti-estrogens.

This we can agree on, but I will also remind you that the dragging issue post cycle is not LH. LH will reach normal or supraphysiological levels rather quickly without the use of an anti-estrogen, and even with, will not reach a point where it is rapidly affecting testicular mass without the concurrent use of HCG. I feel that in many regards by lowering androgen and estrogen inhibition (removing exogenous steroid) we have done much of the job of the AE already. Levels are low enough to produce a surge in gonadotropins after all, that says a lot.

I think you are too quick to recommend HCG to users. HCG can cause problems in and of itself (high estrogen levels and testicular insensitivity) and does not address the full axis. Yes, in many cases HCG is needed, but in the cases that it is not you are much better off stimulating the entire axis using anti-estrogens.

I recommend HCG because for the normal steroid user who has LH levels return within a couple of weeks, it more directly addresses the core issue of testicular atrophy. This is the group that I am speaking to, and I'm sure the same group Mauro is suggesting gets better benifit from HCG as well. This drug does have issues, which is why I recommend short-term use instead of regular on-cycle use like BR.

I do not disagree that Mauro in on the mark with his patients. Clearly there is a group, those with perisitently low LH levels, that are much better served better by anti-estrogens.


What I hope we can agree on are:

1) The healthy bodybuilder, not suffering a prolonged condition, should restore gonadotropins first, and T much later due to atrophy of the testes.

2) In this group HCG is more effective at shortening the post-cycle window, as it directly "stimulates the machinery" so to speak.

3) anti-estrogens are most effective at stimulating testosterone when LH is low, and estrogen levels normal to high.

4) There are issues with HCG, and as such it should be used cautiously and probably always with an anti-estrogen.

5) Hypoandrogenism is quite encompassing, and includes a number of different medical conditions. There are validy some where anti-estrogens are the preferred method of treatment, probably moreso than HCG. But the healthy group most relevant to us should consider HCG the more effective post-cycle drug than AE's.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

You seem fixated on thinking that LH returns quickly to normal in the "average" steroid user. And you base this on what, a study using 250mg of testosterone a week?

Yes, it caused suppression that lasted for a few months, and returned to normal without medical treatment. Typical, no?

Bill, as I have stated before and will continue to state, i have always seen low LH and low testosterone in people coming off of prohormones and coming off of steorids.

Immediately post cycle that is what you will see of course. I didn't say LH rebounds on day one. But if you follow the whole window, most will be spent with normal or high LH and low T because the testes do not read it.

Additionally, these cases more often than not have high estrogen relative to their testosterone. This, Bill, is the typical bodybuilder coming off of steroids/prohormones as i know it and they respond quite well to anti-estrogens.

They could not have high estrogen levels unless testosterone was still high from steroids. They are lower than pre-cycle no doubt, just imbalanced with T. This is not realy relevant because androgens and estrogens do not play opposing roles here like they do with gyno.

I took issue to your blanket statement that anti-estrogens are useless in restoring testosterone in people coming off of steroids. I think Mauro made it quite clear that this is untrue. Furthermore, I have seen blood results of typical users get their testosterone levels back to high normal very quickly using anti-estrogens. All your theorizing based on one study using 250mg of test won't change the facts

I tend to be overly dramatic. I suspect AE's would increase LH a little bit over and above what the post-cycle gonadotropin surge would do on its own. But I think without addressing the core issue with HCG, it won't make much of a difference overall. I think your anti-estrogen group would have been much better served in the long run by purchasing more 1-AD (sorry 1-T Ethergels)

 

[Flash_75]

I thought that estrogen came from aromatization AND some other sources(I have no idea where), thats why you need nolva, not just anastrozle when using HCG. Its also the consensus of most steroid users I know of that HCG prolongs recovery, because the HPTA recognizes the elevation in LH and ceases production of LH.

For all of you coming off extended pro-hormone cycles:

Do a search on the anabolic forums for proper post cycle recovery. Dont be fooled by thinking that because PH's arent as strong as steroids that they dont cause inhibition. You will recover naturally, but studies show that naturally typically means 8 weeks.