1-Test - Anabolic/Androgenic?

[Bill Llewellyn]

YOu do not need high estrogen levels to experience an increase in gonadotropins from an anti-estrogen.

I agree you do not need high estrogen levels for anti-estrogens to have an effect, but have seen nothing to suggest that offer a benefit when gonadotropins are already elevated due to subnormal estrogen and androgen levels.

 

[stoomp]

According to the assays, 1-Test is both more androgenic and anabolic than testosterone mg for mg. It is overall more anabolic than androgenic in nature though (it has a favorable ratio), which means that for a given level of activity in the muscle tissue you have comparably less activity in androgenic target tissues. The reverse is true with testosterone.

In my experience, even at 400mg daily (Ethergels), 1-test could not replace the full androgenic action of testosterone in regards to libido.

cant say that i agree. im on hrt but find that 1-test spikes my libido to a much greater extent .

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

cant say that i agree. im on hrt but find that 1-test spikes my libido to a much greater extent .

We are speaking about when taken with no other androgens.

Libido is a funny thing anyway. You will never get a consistent opinion on how a particular steroid effects this. Some people are totally unaffected by Deca, while others are ready to jump off a roof within a couple of weeks.

 

[stoomp]

We are speaking about when taken with no other androgens.

Libido is a funny thing anyway. You will never get a consistent opinion on how a particular steroid effects this. Some people are totally unaffected by Deca, while others are ready to jump off a roof within a couple of weeks.

true, maybe 1-test and test have a sinergistic affect with regard to libido. wonder whether par's libido is increased when using one+

 

[pa1ad]

I agree you do not need high estrogen levels for anti-estrogens to have an effect, but have seen nothing to suggest that offer a benefit when gonadotropins are already elevated due to subnormal estrogen and androgen levels.

MOst people suffering from post cycle hypoandrogenism have low LH/FSH levels. I have never seen a case of high LH/FSH and low testosterone from someone suffering from simple post cycle suppression

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

MOst people suffering from post cycle hypoandrogenism have low LH/FSH levels. I have never seen a case of high LH/FSH and low testosterone from someone suffering from simple post cycle suppression

Please post a reference to this, as the only thing I see is a rapid LH/FSH return post cycle, and this is after long-term use.

I can't see logically how LH would be more slow to return on small cycles, yet rapid after more suppressive cycles.

 

[pa1ad]

Please post a reference to this, as the only thing I see is a rapid LH/FSH return post cycle, and this is after long-term use.

I can't see logically how LH would be more slow to return on small cycles, yet rapid after more suppressive cycles.

I don't get it. I have seen many blood tests of people post cycle and there is always an LH/FSH deficit along with the testosterone suppression. I know what I have seen firsthand, but if you want references this is what i find on medline:

Pol Merkuriusz Lek 2001 Dec;11(66):535-8 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


[Treatment strategies of withdrawal from long-term use of anabolic-androgenic steroids]

[Article in Polish]

Medras M, Tworowska U.

Anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) withdrawal is established to be an important, though poorly known medical problem, because of AAS potency to cause physical and psychological dependence. Thus discontinuation of high-dose, long-term anabolic steroid use, apart from endocrine dysfunction (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism),

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Notice the term HYPOgonadotropic

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Postgrad Med J 1998 Jan;74(867):45-6 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism treated with human chorionic gonadotropin.

Gill GV.

Endocrine Unit, Walton Hospital, Liverpool, UK.

A case is presented of a young competitive body-builder who abused anabolic steroid drugs and developed profound symptomatic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. With the help of prescribed testosterone (Sustanon) he stopped taking anabolic drugs, and later stopped Sustanon also. Hypogonadism returned, but was successfully treated with weekly injections of human chorionic gonadotropin for three months. Testicular function remained normal thereafter on no treatment. The use of human chorionic gonadotropin should be considered in prolonged hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism due to anabolic steroid abuse.
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ONce again HYPOgonadotropic (meaning due to lack of LH/FSH) hypogonadism

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Hum Reprod 1997 Aug;12(8):1706-8 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Conservative management of azoospermia following steroid abuse.

Gazvani MR, Buckett W, Luckas MJ, Aird IA, Hipkin LJ, Lewis-Jones DI.

Reproductive Medicine Unit, Liverpool Women's Hospital, UK.

As well as athletes and competitive body builders, recreational body builders attending gymnasia are known to abuse anabolic steroids, using doses from 10- to 40-fold above physiological levels. Androgenic steroids induce hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism with associated azoospermia, leading to infertility. Little literature exists on the treatment of steroid-induced azoospermia following the cessation of abuse. We present four cases of steroid-induced azoospermia, its conservative management and eventual return of normal semen density.

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hypogonadotropic again Bill

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Am J Sports Med 1990 Jul-Aug;18(4):429-31 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

Jarow JP, Lipshultz LI.

Department of Surgery (Urology), Bowman Gray School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, North Carolina 27103.

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No abstract but the title says it all

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My search revealed nothing to support your view on the subject so i am interested in what you have to support your view

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Pat, you are not looking at the whole picture. Of course gonadotropins become suppressed with steroids. Nobody is arguing against hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, this occurance is common sense. You references do not detail LH and T levels for the weeks and months post cycle however, and therefore explain only the cause of suppression, not the process in which T is restored naturally by the body.

I wrote an referenced article for the next Mind and Muscle, with graphs of LH, T, and everything. It will be easy for you to follow, and shows clearly that LH comes back quickly, while T is delayed for weeks/months. Gonadotropins are not the weak link in the post-cycle window, the testes are.

- Bill

 

[pa1ad]

Pat, you are not looking at the whole picture. Of course gonadotropins become suppressed with steroids. Nobody is arguing against hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, this occurance is common sense. You references do not detail LH and T levels for the weeks and months post cycle however, and therefore explain only the cause of suppression, not the process in which T is restored naturally by the body.

I wrote an referenced article for the next Mind and Muscle, with graphs of LH, T, and everything. It will be easy for you to follow, and shows clearly that LH comes back quickly, while T is delayed for weeks/months. Gonadotropins are not the weak link in the post-cycle window, the testes are.

- Bill

So what you are saying is that there is a delay between LH/FSH restoration and testicular response. I don't doubt that. The testes probably take some time to prime after a period of atrophy.

However, none of this changes anything. You still need to restore gonadotropins to get the testes working again. And that can be done using HCG, menotropins, anti-estrogens, or a combination of all of these.

I do not understand your logic in regards to determining that this testicular response lapse indicates that increasing gonadotropins is irrelevant. Unless you know of some other way to stimulate the testes - perhaps dipping them in hot or cold water? I dunno

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I do not understand your logic in regards to determining that this testicular response lapse indicates that increasing gonadotropins is irrelevant. Unless you know of some other way to stimulate the testes - perhaps dipping them in hot or cold water? I dunno

I never said increasing gonadotropins was irrelevant. What I said was that gonadotropins return quickly on their own, and with estrogenic and androgenic inhibition both reduced post-cycle there seems no notable mechanism for AE's to help. The testes are screwing everything up post cycle, not LH levels. You are trying to fix something with AE's that isn't really broke.

I am not trying to knock your aromatase inhibitor. I just strongly feel that bodybuilders are missing the issue when relying on anti-estrogens, and are forgetting the truly important post-cycle drug: HCG.