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You can't grow unless you take Protein shake after workout!

djeclipse

djeclipse

New member
Hi all, it's been a while, well over a year. For those that know me, I tore my achilies tendon playing soccer and went downhill from there. I just started to get off my lazy ass and get back to the gym.

Anyway, I went to Hercks a local suplement store and the guy told me that you can NOT gain any muscle unless you have a protien shake (isolate) right after you work out. Even if you go home and eat lots of protein, you will not grow or gain muscle unless you have a protein shake. And there was no point of working out since your muscles will not be able to repair themselves so your work out is pointless if you don't have the shake.

When he said this I literally started laughing at him and asked him if he was serious.

I asked what did people do before the invent of these magical protein shakes?

He said "I'm a body builder, I know what I am talking about, if you don't have a protein shake right after working out you won't get bigger.

This guy really believed this nonsense, it was quite comical, I simply told him he was full of shit and left.

Anyway, it feels good to be back, I'm on week 7 of a 5 x 5 and though I'm far away form where I left off before I got hurt, I am on my way.

Cheers.
 
Got to love the meat heads. Good luck bro and welcome back to the game and ef. I remember you very well. Good to see you again.
 
needtogetaas said:
Got to love the meat heads. Good luck bro and welcome back to the game and ef. I remember you very well. Good to see you again.
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When he started talking all that BS I immediately thought of EF and the good old stories of morons like this on here.

Hopefully this time I can stay injury free and make some real gains.

Unfortunately I think I came back too early after tearing my Achilies. I started playing soccer and now the area just below my knee hurts when ever I do any kind of squat motion, even going down stairs. So for now I can't do Squats which really sucks.
 
djeclipse said:
When he started talking all that BS I immediately thought of EF and the good old stories of morons like this on here.

Hopefully this time I can stay injury free and make some real gains.

Unfortunately I think I came back too early after tearing my Achilies. I started playing soccer and now the area just below my knee hurts when ever I do any kind of squat motion, even going down stairs. So for now I can't do Squats which really sucks.
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I ripped my Achilies when I was 12-13 years old. It still gives me some problems to this day. Some times my foot locks up. It always happens if I try to swim.
 
needtogetaas said:
I ripped my Achilies when I was 12-13 years old. It still gives me some problems to this day. Some times my foot locks up. It always happens if I try to swim.
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That sucks. I still have some pain when I do certain movements while playing Soccer, but it's much better then it was. Doesn't lock up though.. crossing fingers.
 
djeclipse said:
That sucks. I still have some pain when I do certain movements while playing Soccer, but it's much better then it was. Doesn't lock up though.. crossing fingers.
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Well mine was ripped off. The short of it. A 280lb plat fell on the back of my heal
and ripped it almost clean off. I was told I need to have it re cut and a nerve moved or some shit. Or it will keep locking up for the rest of my life. I just say fuck it and leave it the way it is.
 
silver_shadow said:
hey dj! was wondering where the hell you went! good to see you back bro! :)

check your PMs :D
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Thanks, I fell of the face of the earth and got fat. but I'm back on track now, lol

Checking PM's now.

Cheers.
 
needtogetaas said:
Bunch of newbs in this thread.
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ha.

Hi everyone, I have a question about bie day. Here is my existing workout.

Straight bar bell curl 4 sets of 10 reps
Dumbell curl 3 sets of 8 reps
Hammer curl 3 sets of 8 reps
Seated preacher curl 3 sets of 8 reps
Cable curl 3 sets of 12 reps (for the pump)
The I do the standing curl with the preacher bar curl as it Hits my bies form a different angle.

I am looking for another exercise to hit my bies so I hit the outside peak. Any suggestions? thx.
 
needtogetaas said:
Well mine was ripped off. The short of it. A 280lb plat fell on the back of my heal
and ripped it almost clean off. I was told I need to have it re cut and a nerve moved or some shit. Or it will keep locking up for the rest of my life. I just say fuck it and leave it the way it is.
Click to expand...

I missed this post.

A 280lbs fell on it? Ouch. Did you have surgery?

I had emergency surgery, when the surgeon looked at it, he said it was completly shreaded. but I don't think there was any nerve damage. That sounds nasty.
 
djeclipse said:
I missed this post.

A 280lbs fell on it? Ouch. Did you have surgery?

I had emergency surgery, when the surgeon looked at it, he said it was completly shreaded. but I don't think there was any nerve damage. That sounds nasty.
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Ya I had re constructive surgery. 50 or so stitches altogether.
 
needtogetaas said:
Ya they can kiss my ass though. I am all set with having any more don on it.
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ya I hear ya, I was out for a year after surgery, i am just getting back into things now. There's no way I want to go through that again.
 
djeclipse said:
ya I hear ya, I was out for a year after surgery, i am just getting back into things now. There's no way I want to go through that again.
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Sorry I didnt get to you question sooner... Barbell Curls Lying Against An Incline basically laying on your stomach instead of the ever popular laying on one with your back.

Do you use a bar or rope for cable curls, maybe switch that up a little for a different sytle.

I love the drag curl, but dont think it would exactly isolate the precise area your asking about.

then there is always "He mans" aka "ear slappers" on the cables up. (Overhead Cable Curl)

Laying cable curl (which is just weird but different none the less.

Lying Close-Grip Bar Curl On High Pulley
 
silverskyline said:
Sorry I didnt get to you question sooner... Barbell Curls Lying Against An Incline basically laying on your stomach instead of the ever popular laying on one with your back.

Do you use a bar or rope for cable curls, maybe switch that up a little for a different sytle.

I love the drag curl, but dont think it would exactly isolate the precise area your asking about.

then there is always "He mans" aka "ear slappers" on the cables up. (Overhead Cable Curl)

Laying cable curl (which is just weird but different none the less.

Lying Close-Grip Bar Curl On High Pulley
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thanks, I wil just do all the above on top of my existing exercises, my bies will be huge in no time! WOOT!
 
djeclipse said:
thanks, I wil just do all the above on top of my existing exercises, my bies will be huge in no time! WOOT!
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try knocking out sofa's 80 pullups in as many sets as necessary
arms guranteed to be sore
 
Bino said:
try knocking out sofa's 80 pullups in as many sets as necessary
arms guranteed to be sore
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Na, pull up's are too practical and don't focus only on the peak of the bies. ;) I need the bie pump YO!
 
djeclipse said:
Na, pull up's are too practical and don't focus only on the peak of the bies. ;) I need the bie pump YO!
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Yeah they are decent excercises you pretty much have it down but it's always good to change it up every so often as you prolly know.

yeah I'm not a fan of pull ups prmarly because I could very easily be working back the next day or shoulders or whatever and I dont need to over train of have them sore as well.
 
silverskyline said:
Yeah they are decent excercises you pretty much have it down but it's always good to change it up every so often as you prolly know.

I was being sarcastic bro, making fun of the people that do 50 sets for bies and tries, wasting time with the isolation crap, and then wonder why they are weak as shit and never grow.


yeah I'm not a fan of pull ups prmarly because I could very easily be working back the next day or shoulders or whatever and I dont need to over train of have them sore as well.
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You would be better off doing pull ups then wasting time with curls and other isolation shit..

Do heavy squats, push and pull and your arms will grow.
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b_light said:
how did arnie get so big w.o shakes?>????!!
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Arnold must have had these magic protein shakes back then too because according to this chump, you can not grow unless you take a protein shake directly after your W/O.

He knows, he's a body builder.. I found out today that the guy competed once in this amature fitness contest, lol
 
djeclipse said:
You would be better off doing pull ups then wasting time with curls and other isolation shit..

Do heavy squats, push and pull and your arms will grow.
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not for me I grew a shit load doing isolation,

I did pull ups and all over body excercises for 4 year in the marines and never grew a pound.

I started do isolations and 1 or 2 musslce groups a day and grew at least 20 lbs.

Whatever you think works for you then, I know what works for me.
 
Abolish says, just say no to shakes!!! Shakes are bullshit, I dont drink them unless I'm in a jam and simply cannot eat. I may have one/wk. They make me nautious, stomach gets fucked up, bloated, gassy, basically I take one, it fucks me up, and 20 min later I take a big shit!! Fuck shakes, I'm big and grow fine without them. Besides, lets be honest here. People drink them because they're easy and they dont wanna eat. Is anything in this fucking sport supposed to be easy? hahahhaa, I think not
 
abolish the weak said:
Abolish says, just say no to shakes!!! Shakes are bullshit, I dont drink them unless I'm in a jam and simply cannot eat. I may have one/wk. They make me nautious, stomach gets fucked up, bloated, gassy, basically I take one, it fucks me up, and 20 min later I take a big shit!! Fuck shakes, I'm big and grow fine without them. Besides, lets be honest here. People drink them because they're easy and they dont wanna eat. Is anything in this fucking sport supposed to be easy? hahahhaa, I think not
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Well according to this guy, you can not build muscle, so you must be another freak of nature.

I agree with you, there is no substitute for proper eating and real protein sources, good old meat. But sometimes it's just not in the schedule to go home and eat some chicken or a can of tuna right after the gym. That's where I would use the protein shake.

But ya, some people rely on it way too much and take them 3 x a day.
 
djeclipse said:
Well according to this guy, you can not build muscle, so you must be another freak of nature.

I agree with you, there is no substitute for proper eating and real protein sources, good old meat. But sometimes it's just not in the schedule to go home and eat some chicken or a can of tuna right after the gym. That's where I would use the protein shake.

But ya, some people rely on it way too much and take them 3 x a day.
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I have a cooler that goes everywhere with me on a daily basis. And fortunately, I work for the fire dept. When I'm not running calls I'm eating all day.
 
djeclipse said:
Well according to this guy, you can not build muscle, so you must be another freak of nature.

I agree with you, there is no substitute for proper eating and real protein sources, good old meat. But sometimes it's just not in the schedule to go home and eat some chicken or a can of tuna right after the gym. That's where I would use the protein shake.

But ya, some people rely on it way too much and take them 3 x a day.
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So true, they are pretty much only good if you don't have the time. People takin them 3 times a day is obsurd. It's pretty much a liquid diet, and if you want to shit nasty all day go right ahead but I'll stick with my good hardy animal meat.

and i wasnt tryin to be rude to you bro, I was just saying people are different in make up and structure. I'm more of an isolate guy.
 
silverskyline said:
So true, they are pretty much only good if you don't have the time. People takin them 3 times a day is obsurd. It's pretty much a liquid diet, and if you want to shit nasty all day go right ahead but I'll stick with my good hardy animal meat.

and i wasnt tryin to be rude to you bro, I was just saying people are different in make up and structure. I'm more of an isolate guy.
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No probs, it's all good.

As far as the one body part/ day, isolation crap. You may see gains, but it is the least effective way to train.

You will see more gains by training probably then you ever will by wasting time doing isolation crap.
 
djeclipse said:
No probs, it's all good.

As far as the one body part/ day, isolation crap. You may see gains, but it is the least effective way to train.

You will see more gains by training probably then you ever will by wasting time doing isolation crap.
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Do tell what would you suggest???
 
djeclipse said:
Hi all, it's been a while, well over a year. For those that know me, I tore my achilies tendon playing soccer and went downhill from there. I just started to get off my lazy ass and get back to the gym.

Anyway, I went to Hercks a local suplement store and the guy told me that you can NOT gain any muscle unless you have a protien shake (isolate) right after you work out. Even if you go home and eat lots of protein, you will not grow or gain muscle unless you have a protein shake. And there was no point of working out since your muscles will not be able to repair themselves so your work out is pointless if you don't have the shake.

When he said this I literally started laughing at him and asked him if he was serious.

I asked what did people do before the invent of these magical protein shakes?

He said "I'm a body builder, I know what I am talking about, if you don't have a protein shake right after working out you won't get bigger.

This guy really believed this nonsense, it was quite comical, I simply told him he was full of shit and left.

Anyway, it feels good to be back, I'm on week 7 of a 5 x 5 and though I'm far away form where I left off before I got hurt, I am on my way.

Cheers.
Click to expand...


Are you serious man? That guy at the store is right. All the other food throughout the day doesn't mean shit. You could just have 1 protein shake PWO and get huge. I think YOU don't know what you're talking about jackass!

LOL. Just playing. That guy at the store is obviously a complete tool. A PWO shake is very beneficial, but it's the food you eat before and after all throughout the day and leading up to the next workout that counts. I nfact, you can get big on 0 protein shakes your whle life if you can get the nutrients from a solid food source. Shakes are there to help an otherwise good diet. Guy at the store = faggo, and a moron.
 
silverskyline said:
I'll give it a once over I'm always open minded, thanks
Click to expand...

Good to hear :)

If you have any questions feel free to post here. I am by far an expert, but I have a pretty good grasp of the training. Others here (if they are still here) will be able to help you out more.

For instance, I only trained bies (islation) once a week for only 3 sets (3 sets of straight bar curls). Same with tries, only once a week for 3 sets. But I trained heavy with the Squats, Deads, rows, bench, and put on 1" on my arms in a few month's. Just an example that you don't need islation movements for your body to grow. I just started back and was able to add 30lbs to my bench in 6 weeks (5lbs/ week). I am almost back to where I was when i got hurt over a year ago.
 
djeclipse said:
Good to hear :)

If you have any questions feel free to post here. I am by far an expert, but I have a pretty good grasp of the training. Others here (if they are still here) will be able to help you out more.

For instance, I only trained bies (islation) once a week for only 3 sets (3 sets of straight bar curls). Same with tries, only once a week for 3 sets. But I trained heavy with the Squats, Deads, rows, bench, and put on 1" on my arms in a few month's. Just an example that you don't need islation movements for your body to grow. I just started back and was able to add 30lbs to my bench in 6 weeks (5lbs/ week). I am almost back to where I was when i got hurt over a year ago.
Click to expand...

Yeah but my thing is I'm not going for raw size I'm going for a ripped physique very toned and defined. Plus (hahaha) I dont just do 3 sets a day when i hit Bis I tear them the fuck up I'll do like 3 sets of preacher, 3 sets of cable curls, 3 sets incline bench curls, 3 sets hammer, 3 sets all kinds of shit.

I'm pretty set on my routine it's gotten me right where I want to be
 
silverskyline said:
Yeah but my thing is I'm not going for raw size I'm going for a ripped physique very toned and defined. Plus (hahaha) I dont just do 3 sets a day when i hit Bis I tear them the fuck up I'll do like 3 sets of preacher, 3 sets of cable curls, 3 sets incline bench curls, 3 sets hammer, 3 sets all kinds of shit.

I'm pretty set on my routine it's gotten me right where I want to be
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dude are you serious or just kidding?
 
silverskyline said:
Yeah but my thing is I'm not going for raw size I'm going for a ripped physique very toned and defined. Plus (hahaha) I dont just do 3 sets a day when i hit Bis I tear them the fuck up I'll do like 3 sets of preacher, 3 sets of cable curls, 3 sets incline bench curls, 3 sets hammer, 3 sets all kinds of shit.

I'm pretty set on my routine it's gotten me right where I want to be
Click to expand...


You do realize that being "ripped" has nothing to do with size, strength or muscle? And it certainly does not ahve anything to do with how many useless sets of curls you do/ day/ week.

Being "ripped" as you say is simply about body fat %. You could be a skinny little shit and be completly shreaded. You don't even have to pick up a weight to be "shreaded" as you say.

Look at Ed Norton in American history X. He is super skinny, but he has a very low body fat % there so he is very defined.

You are also wasting your time with all the curls.
 
silverskyline said:
Yeah but my thing is I'm not going for raw size I'm going for a ripped physique very toned and defined. Plus (hahaha) I dont just do 3 sets a day when i hit Bis I tear them the fuck up I'll do like 3 sets of preacher, 3 sets of cable curls, 3 sets incline bench curls, 3 sets hammer, 3 sets all kinds of shit.

I'm pretty set on my routine it's gotten me right where I want to be
Click to expand...

Taken from a good article on T-nation

Twin brothers eating the same diet, working at the same job. Three times a week for the next 52 weeks, both brothers undertake a progressive resistance-training program, each adding weight, sets, or reps in a logical manner over the whole year. One difference: the first brother does deadlifts only. The second brother does arm curls only.


After a year, who do you think will have bigger arms? Obviously it will be the first brother, who put more overall stress and load through his system. Even though he didn't bend his elbow at all.

The bottom line is that muscle growth is a systemic issue, not a localized one. If you put a stress on the forearm only, of course it would grow, but that growth would be limited because the systemic load is small. If you did deadlifts, on the other hand, the systemic load would be so big, everything would grow.
Click to expand...

Here is the full article.

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/cosgroves_five_ahha_moments

Once again, you're wasting time doing all those curls. ;)
 
i call BS. heavy barbell and DB curling will aid in big bicep size as long as u support your training by eating to grow. big arm size will come in cunjunction of getting your tri's bigger as well. it is unlikely that 130lb person will have 20" arms because they will need to put on mass to get 20" arms.

Side note: never researched this but it has been said to add an inch to your arms would require 10lbs of gains. assuming the average 130 lber has 13-14" gunz then they would need to be in the 200lb range (lean) to have that kind of arm size. that doesnt mean 70lbs is in your arms.
 
I'm not body building guru, but I think there's no need for shakes. Before shakes, body builders grew on food alone.

I used to work out heavy and would never get huge, why? Because I have a bad appetite.
I think the key is to eat, eat and eat some more to get growth in any parts of the body.
 
8and20 said:
i call BS. heavy barbell and DB curling will aid in big bicep size as long as u support your training by eating to grow. big arm size will come in cunjunction of getting your tri's bigger as well. it is unlikely that 130lb person will have 20" arms because they will need to put on mass to get 20" arms.

Side note: never researched this but it has been said to add an inch to your arms would require 10lbs of gains. assuming the average 130 lber has 13-14" gunz then they would need to be in the 200lb range (lean) to have that kind of arm size. that doesnt mean 70lbs is in your arms.
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dude i was kidding :D

that was the point i was trying to make

@ blueta2: very true... you don't need artificial protein and even if you do have some it's best to not exceed 20% of your total requirements through shakes... it's alright though when you're in a hurry and can't get enough real food.
BTW, looking good on that playboy mag ;) when do we get to see the centrespread ;) :p
 
sorry i didnt read all the posts between i just saw some of the most recent replies.....lol

one point to make about the past in comparison to now is how much nutritional knowledge we have gained in the area of bodybuilding. though shakes r not essential i do believe high GI carbs such as waxy maize are. the protein source that follows can be food but efforts should be made to pick a faster digesting source.

silver_shadow said:
dude i was kidding :D

that was the point i was trying to make

@ blueta2: very true... you don't need artificial protein and even if you do have some it's best to not exceed 20% of your total requirements through shakes... it's alright though when you're in a hurry and can't get enough real food.
BTW, looking good on that playboy mag ;) when do we get to see the centrespread ;) :p
Click to expand...
 
silver_shadow said:
dude i was kidding :D

that was the point i was trying to make

@ blueta2: very true... you don't need artificial protein and even if you do have some it's best to not exceed 20% of your total requirements through shakes... it's alright though when you're in a hurry and can't get enough real food.
BTW, looking good on that playboy mag ;) when do we get to see the centrespread ;) :p
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When you send me your credit card # ;-)
 
8and20 said:
i call BS. heavy barbell and DB curling will aid in big bicep size as long as u support your training by eating to grow. big arm size will come in cunjunction of getting your tri's bigger as well. it is unlikely that 130lb person will have 20" arms because they will need to put on mass to get 20" arms.

Side note: never researched this but it has been said to add an inch to your arms would require 10lbs of gains. assuming the average 130 lber has 13-14" gunz then they would need to be in the 200lb range (lean) to have that kind of arm size. that doesnt mean 70lbs is in your arms.
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That was mentioned in the article I quoted.

The point being that you're not going to ever put on muscle doing curls, therefore they will not make your arms grow.

Using the 10lbs of muscle = 1" of arm size theory, you would have to put on real muscle all over the body,and you're not going t do that with curls.

Movements like deads, squats etc. will pack on mass and by doing this your arms will grow.

Curls are useless for putting on size, doing 15 sets of curls a week will not increase their size, training heady squats, deads, rows etc. is what will.
 
Here is the entire write up regarding hypertrophy/ arm size reference

Hypertrophy is a systemic response and effect, not a localized one.

All the talk about bodypart training versus full body routines, isolation exercise versus compound exercise, etc. is based upon a fundamentally flawed concept: that hypertrophy is somehow completely regional-specific.

Here's a study that examines this in a bit more detail:

Rogers et al

The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)

The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.

The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size

However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.

The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide.

Let me present a hypothetical example:

Twin brothers eating the same diet, working at the same job. Three times a week for the next 52 weeks, both brothers undertake a progressive resistance-training program, each adding weight, sets, or reps in a logical manner over the whole year. One difference: the first brother does deadlifts only. The second brother does arm curls only.
Twins


After a year, who do you think will have bigger arms? Obviously it will be the first brother, who put more overall stress and load through his system. Even though he didn't bend his elbow at all.

Charles Poliquin is fond of saying in order to gain an inch on your arm, you'd have to gain 10 pounds of muscle mass. If that's true, it'll happen a lot faster with an exercise like the deadlift than it will with the dumbbell curl.

The bottom line is that muscle growth is a systemic issue, not a localized one. If you put a stress on the forearm only, of course it would grow, but that growth would be limited because the systemic load is small. If you did deadlifts, on the other hand, the systemic load would be so big, everything would grow.
Sitting on ball.

He'd be much better off doing deadlifts.

And when we think about anabolics or anything that can enhance muscle growth, they're injected or consumed into the system. You don't inject steroids in equal amounts into every muscle group, just as you don't rub Surge on your arms. Increased protein synthesis is a systemic phenomenon.

Conclusion: If hypertrophy is what you want, develop training strategies that target the entire system at once.
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Curls for arm size are useless.
 
so i am a freak? cuz i built my arm size with curls and compound tricep exercises.

djeclipse said:
That was mentioned in the article I quoted.

The point being that you're not going to ever put on muscle doing curls, therefore they will not make your arms grow.

Using the 10lbs of muscle = 1" of arm size theory, you would have to put on real muscle all over the body,and you're not going t do that with curls.

Movements like deads, squats etc. will pack on mass and by doing this your arms will grow.

Curls are useless for putting on size, doing 15 sets of curls a week will not increase their size, training heady squats, deads, rows etc. is what will.
Click to expand...
 
8and20 said:
so i am a freak? cuz i built my arm size with curls and compound tricep exercises.
Click to expand...


That's all you've done over the years of your training? You've never done any other lifts, every time you go to the gym you do curls and tri extensions?

Read the article I posted above, I don't think it was there when you replied.
 
djeclipse said:
Here is the entire write up regarding hypertrophy/ arm size reference



Curls for arm size are useless.
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I wouldnt say completly useless it is tearing the muscle fashia either way you look at it.

There may be more excelerated ways to go about it but I do curls and my arms are almost to big for the rest of my body
 
i do agree u get more growth by working the entire body so to speak.

ball state is close to me. my wife got her MS there. i am going to have to go down there and kick there ass.....lol

but i can still get good growth from muscle specific exercises.

djeclipse said:
Here is the entire write up regarding hypertrophy/ arm size reference



Curls for arm size are useless.
Click to expand...
 
8and20 said:
i do agree u get more growth by working the entire body so to speak.

ball state is close to me. my wife got her MS there. i am going to have to go down there and kick there ass.....lol

but i can still get good growth from muscle specific exercises.
Click to expand...


lol, go down there and ask to participate in their next studdy.

The studdy showed that the people that included curls in their program gained no additional size in their arms over those that didn't include arms in their w/o.

So the people that included arms in their w/o programs were literally wasting their time as it made absolutley no difference in arm size. They were still in the gym, wasting time and energy, while the non training arm group was at home relaxing/ or doing other productive things.

I don't know about you, but I am a busy person, I also play other sports that require a lot of energy. I don't want to spend any more time or energy doing anything more then I have to.

When I go to the gym I want to maxamise my efforts, use the time I am there as effectively as I can. Lift heavy, and leave. I don't want to waste time doing movements that are not going to give me maximum return for my efforts. Curls are one of those exercises that do not give you maximum returns for the time/ energy you put into them. The above studdy shows that they were literally a complete waste of time as they did nothing for size.
 
8and20 said:
i do agree u get more growth by working the entire body so to speak.

ball state is close to me. my wife got her MS there. i am going to have to go down there and kick there ass.....lol

but i can still get good growth from muscle specific exercises.
Click to expand...
dude you think you gained from iso exercises, when you actually gained MOSTLY from compound exercises along with a high cal diet. i see loads of skinny little guys curling the crap out of their biceps... they never train legs and they never get big overall... so their arms never grow.... i think you've seen those guys in your gym as well...
 
silver_shadow said:
dude you think you gained from iso exercises, when you actually gained MOSTLY from compound exercises along with a high cal diet. i see loads of skinny little guys curling the crap out of their biceps... they never train legs and they never get big overall... so their arms never grow.... i think you've seen those guys in your gym as well...
Click to expand...

key word is skinny. the definitive study would be to have someone train arms only with proper high cal diet aimed at gaining size to see if there arms grow or not.

i go with what works for me. i just remember a time when all i did was arms bc i didnt know any better and they blew up.
 
8and20 said:
key word is skinny. the definitive study would be to have someone train arms only with proper high cal diet aimed at gaining size to see if there arms grow or not.

i go with what works for me. i just remember a time when all i did was arms bc i didnt know any better and they blew up.
Click to expand...
it has it's limit.... you do accept that right? it won't go on forever unless you add more size overall.
 
silver_shadow said:
it has it's limit.... you do accept that right? it won't go on forever unless you add more size overall.
Click to expand...

agreed. that was my point with the whole theory of supposedly u need to gain 10lbs of muscle to the body to add an inch to the arm.

:)
 
8and20 said:
agreed. that was my point with the whole theory of supposedly u need to gain 10lbs of muscle to the body to add an inch to the arm.

:)
Click to expand...

Then you're contradicting yourself. One hand you're saying that your arms can grow with just curls and on the other you say you need to add mass everywhere for your arms to grow....
 
djeclipse said:
Then you're contradicting yourself. One hand you're saying that your arms can grow with just curls and on the other you say you need to add mass everywhere for your arms to grow....
Click to expand...

no i am not. i agree u can get more/better growth from working the entire body and trying to get everything bigger/stronger. the only point i am disagreeing about is that u can get bicep growth from curls only if u did nothing else. i was living proof of this. but my arms got even bigger as my training experience and knowledge grew and incorporate legs, back, chest, etc. into my workouts.

i also originally put a side note about the 10lb theory in my original post saying that i have never researched but simply mentioning it as to why someone who is 130lbs and does nothing but curls doesnt get bigger arms. they are not eating to grow. u cant expect to gain size on your arms if u remain 130 lbs.
 
i say fuck the studies, w/e works for u, works for you, a 5x5 is for people who are looking for strength and putting on "mass", isolation is more for bodybuilders.. bodybuilders who want to weigh 250 pounds and still be below 8 percent bodyfat, a 5x5 wont do that for bodybuilders.. and im assuming diet wise, a 5x5 is supported with a diet of 3,000+ calories with a high carb ratio, where as bodybuilders who are going for that onseason look have a 3:1 protien ratio over their carbs.. and the dude at the store is pretty right.. protien is protien wheter it be food or shakes, but the reason y liquid protien is so much better is, because it breaks down a hella lot faster then your steak after working out. so while ur still in your catabolic state, your feeding your muscle correctly.. so say if someones catabolic state lasts 30 minutes, the protien will break down fast enough in the catabolic state to allow the muscle to grow, where the food will more then likely not break down in your catabolic state, where granting no real benefit to your workout.
 
Porportional said:
bodybuilders who want to weigh 250 pounds and still be below 8 percent bodyfat, a 5x5 wont do that for bodybuilders..
Click to expand...

Oh my, you couldn't be more wrong, haven't you read anything in the training vault, on the board?

Don't be so f'n ignorant. Try reading about the program before you even pretend to know what you're talking about. I suggest you read the diet portion of the website I posted before making comments like above.

Good luck getting to 250 and 8% body fat with only isolation movements... you'll need some serious help.
 
8and20 said:
no i am not. i agree u can get more/better growth from working the entire body and trying to get everything bigger/stronger. the only point i am disagreeing about is that u can get bicep growth from curls only if u did nothing else. i was living proof of this. but my arms got even bigger as my training experience and knowledge grew and incorporate legs, back, chest, etc. into my workouts.

i also originally put a side note about the 10lb theory in my original post saying that i have never researched but simply mentioning it as to why someone who is 130lbs and does nothing but curls doesnt get bigger arms. they are not eating to grow. u cant expect to gain size on your arms if u remain 130 lbs.
Click to expand...


Ok, so as you are saying you personally can get limited amount of bicep growth from only training bicep.

But will you agree that the rest of your body is not going to grow at all from doing curls only?

On the other hand can you agree (as the studdy shows) that by doing compound full body movements your biceps will grow without ever training the biceps? The studdy showed this to be true.

After knowing this, what is the point in focusing so much/ wasting so much time doing curls? An exercise that will give you minimal gains at best and only for one small body part... when you can be doing lifts that make the entire body grow including the bies?

all the above = curls/ arm days are a big waste of time. Maybe 2-3 sets/ week max if you want to "feel the pump", but aside form that there is no point in doing them at all.
 
Last edited:
Porportional said:
i say fuck the studies, w/e works for u, works for you, a 5x5 is for people who are looking for strength and putting on "mass", isolation is more for bodybuilders.. bodybuilders who want to weigh 250 pounds and still be below 8 percent bodyfat, a 5x5 wont do that for bodybuilders.. and im assuming diet wise, a 5x5 is supported with a diet of 3,000+ calories with a high carb ratio, where as bodybuilders who are going for that onseason look have a 3:1 protien ratio over their carbs.. and the dude at the store is pretty right.. protien is protien wheter it be food or shakes, but the reason y liquid protien is so much better is, because it breaks down a hella lot faster then your steak after working out. so while ur still in your catabolic state, your feeding your muscle correctly.. so say if someones catabolic state lasts 30 minutes, the protien will break down fast enough in the catabolic state to allow the muscle to grow, where the food will more then likely not break down in your catabolic state, where granting no real benefit to your workout.
Click to expand...
biceps curls exclusively for a 250lb bodybuilder??? how much do you weigh?
 
10lbs per inch of arm size is pretty optimistic, that assumes a build that tends towards smaller torso/larger limbs (prevelant in a small percentage of people) most people have either equal growth potential or the opposite. Assuming they train hard on everything not just arms

Train or not train, my arms don't grow anymore.. right now I just pump them with some light dumbbells for a couple of sets at the end of the workout to keep the elbows healthy.

Luckily logging onto the internet adds 1-3" to most peoples arms, so I might stop training them all together :o

Everyone on the internet is at least 250, 8%.. didnt you know?
 
Tweakle said:
10lbs per inch of arm size is pretty optimistic, that assumes a build that tends towards smaller torso/larger limbs (prevelant in a small percentage of people) most people have either equal growth potential or the opposite. Assuming they train hard on everything not just arms

Train or not train, my arms don't grow anymore.. right now I just pump them with some light dumbbells for a couple of sets at the end of the workout to keep the elbows healthy.

Luckily logging onto the internet adds 1-3" to most peoples arms, so I might stop training them all together :o

Everyone on the internet is at least 250, 8%.. didnt you know?
Click to expand...



Hahaha nice, just like putting graphics on your car and window decals gives your car 120 extra HP
 
stop trying to get everyone to agree with you, your the ignorant one when it comes to the science behind bodybuilding, havent you ever heard training is only 1/4 of growing, 1/2 is from your diet, where you can control if your going to gain mass, or cut.. so basically the way you look is determined by your diet. Now when it comes to lifting, a 5x5 will help you gain strength and mass, only if your diet is designed to let it.. everyone has their own routine, i only use a 5x5 during winter with my bulking diet, but when it comes to spring, there is no use for the 5x5 for me.. to me it sounds like ur one of those skinny whitekids, who think they kno everything, so please stop tryin to get 8 to agree with you.. hes much bigger and knowledgable then u
 
Porportional said:
stop trying to get everyone to agree with you, your the ignorant one when it comes to the science behind bodybuilding, havent you ever heard training is only 1/4 of growing, 1/2 is from your diet, where you can control if your going to gain mass, or cut.. so basically the way you look is determined by your diet. Now when it comes to lifting, a 5x5 will help you gain strength and mass, only if your diet is designed to let it.. everyone has their own routine, i only use a 5x5 during winter with my bulking diet, but when it comes to spring, there is no use for the 5x5 for me.. to me it sounds like ur one of those skinny whitekids, who think they kno everything, so please stop tryin to get 8 to agree with you.. hes much bigger and knowledgable then u
Click to expand...

Wow, very intelligent reply, now it's a race issue... grow up.

Go back and read what you are saying, you're a walking contradiction.

Ever heard of a return key? try it for once, it's very hard to read that mess.
 
silver_shadow said:
biceps curls exclusively for a 250lb bodybuilder??? how much do you weigh?
Click to expand...

no, im 22, 5'10 205, 7 percent bf right now.. I would like to point out i squat, bench, row all year round... just saying the advantages and disadvantages of the both...

oh im sorry dj, u just remind me one of the kids on bodybuilding.com who is a typical kid at the gym, who looks confused at the gym, when they come home they pretend to know everything.. how are u going to disagree with 8 and me, and try to make a bold statement by saying protien shakes are worthless... im sure u kno all abt lifts, but whats your diet like and the rest of your stats..
 
Porportional said:
no, im 22, 5'10 205, 7 percent bf right now.. I would like to point out i squat, bench, row all year round... just saying the advantages and disadvantages of the both...

oh im sorry dj, u just remind me one of the kids on bodybuilding.com who is a typical kid at the gym, who looks confused at the gym, when they come home they pretend to know everything.. how are u going to disagree with 8 and me, and try to make a bold statement by saying protien shakes are worthless... im sure u kno all abt lifts, but whats your diet like and the rest of your stats..
Click to expand...

OMG, I suggest you go back and re-read this entire thread, you have everything wrong. Don't put words m by mouth. You are lost as far as what this thread is initially about. Where did I say protein shakes were worthless?

Your reading and comprehension skills seem to be lacking greatly. This may explain your lack of knowledge of what this thread was initially about and what madcow has said about diet and the 5 x 5 and the 5 x 5 in general.

I suggest you go back and re-read this thread and the info on the 5 x 5 before you make another ill informed post about it.
 
djeclipse said:
Dam, I'm only 245 8% maybe I should do more curls...










Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
Click to expand...



Hahaha it's all good. I'm not saying your wrong at all. Infact I'd like to do things the 5x5 way more but I've been doing things this way for some 8 years and it's tough to break old gym habbits.
 
ill informed, ? lol .. stop being so egotistic, what you were doing before i even entered this thread was trying to get 8 to agree with you, LIKE I SAID, Some things work better for some people, then they do for you. And Obviously from your first post, you are telling us that your a skinny soccer player, where as 8 is prolly 3x bigger then you, so please go ride the 5x5 program a bit harder, yes ur right about the 5x5 but nowhere did you say what kind of diet you need, for the 5x5 to be effective...
 
Porportional said:
ill informed, ? lol .. stop being so egotistic, what you were doing before i even entered this thread was trying to get 8 to agree with you, LIKE I SAID, Some things work better for some people, then they do for you. And Obviously from your first post, you are telling us that your a skinny soccer player, where as 8 is prolly 3x bigger then you, so please go ride the 5x5 program a bit harder, yes ur right about the 5x5 but nowhere did you say what kind of diet you need, for the 5x5 to be effective...
Click to expand...

There you go making assumptions again... there is no point with you... keep doing those curls maybe you can do some exercises with that florescent green ball they have at the gym also.. work on your "core" lol

EDIT: once again showing us your inability to read and comprehend simple things. Diet is discussed on madcow's website, again don't be so ignorant, go and actually read it before you talk about it, same with this thread. Who's being egotistical now?

You keep commenting on something you clearly haven't spent the time to actually learn it for yourself... pathetic.
 
silverskyline said:
I got you, well never know your only photo is of a hamster with a BB
Click to expand...

lol, that is me in the pic when I started working out. It's a bitch to shave every day. :)


The pic thing in the avatar is not for me, no matter how big or "ripped" I get. I've posted deadlift videos before, but that was in 06, before my injury. I bet it's still around somewhere.

I'm not the biggest on the board but not the smallest either. My lifts have gone up a lot since training. I've learned a lot about training and diet, mostly from older members of this board back in the day.

Unfortunately it seems most of those members have left and it's been taken over by know it all body builder wanna be's that don't want to hear about good training. There are still a few of those peeps left but not like it used to be.
 
You guys are going back and fourth about this, dude 5x5 prolly works great I have never used it and last year I was 5'10 190 7 percent. I'm not sayin thats huge but I was ripped up and not small by any standard, fact is 5x5 prolly works but so do a lot of things for a lot of different people. Isolation works for me it always has if it didnt I would be the same size I was 6 years ago. I may try 5x5 next winter when i'm done cutting. (Just starting the cut)

There is no need to bicker about it.

However I did see Porportional's stats

what are yours out of curiosity dj?
 
lol like p diddy would say some bitchassness in here.. haha jp, i respect your opinion, and would like to apologize, im sure your praising what works for you, and i respect that, i respect the whole 5x5 program because its great for your core, but in retrospect without diet management it is nothing... also shakes are very vital for post workout like i mentioned, but i also respect some of the things u have said :)
 
imo, 5*5 is too easy, esp after doing it a few years.
5*7 i think is a better scheme, fuggin killer on sq days
 
silverskyline said:
You guys are going back and fourth about this, dude 5x5 prolly works great I have never used it and last year I was 5'10 190 7 percent. I'm not sayin thats huge but I was ripped up and not small by any standard, fact is 5x5 prolly works but so do a lot of things for a lot of different people. Isolation works for me it always has if it didnt I would be the same size I was 6 years ago. I may try 5x5 next winter when i'm done cutting. (Just starting the cut)

There is no need to bicker about it.

However I did see Porportional's stats

what are yours out of curiosity dj?
Click to expand...


I used to believe only in the one body part/ day, 6 days a week, 20 sets of curls etc. type training. The typical training you see in those BB mags and you get from the people at the gym.

Then I found this board and learned a lot about training, why the BB style of training wasn't very effective. I was open minded enough to try out new things mainly the 5 x 5. But I also spent time to read as much as I could, even talk to Madcow himself about a few things.

It wasn't just a theory that got me to change my training, it was the fact that this training worked so good I never wanted to go back. I made a lot of gains, got bigger, stronger, with diet I lost a lot of fat and was still able to make gains. It was all thanks to a few people on this board that were willing to talk about proper training and help someone out.

When was the last time you were able to add 5lbs to your bench, squat, Over head press, deadlift for 8-10 weeks straight doing the typical BB type workout?

As for my stats they've been up and down with injury, some medical problems and the side effects of medication related to the medical problem. I have been able to make gains even while on a medication that causes muscle loss as well as bone density loss. I was told by my doctor that if I wasn't lifting heavy the signs of ostepoerosis would be much worse then it is now because of prolonged use of this medication.

So in short lifting heavy has been very beneficial to me.

EDIT: I just wrote a few things on my personal stats but then thought, what does that have to do with anythign in this thread? If I was 230 5% bodyfat does that make me any more informed then if I was a 60 yr old man who hasn't lifted a weight in 20 years, or how about a 300lb man with 30% BF? It doesn't mean that any of these people are smart enough to do research and witness it being applied effectavly.

If that is the case why is this huge strongman wasting his time listening to this small old man in this video?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3pyAmrAQc4E&feature=related

Even though this old man is not 250 8% body fat he knows his shit.
 
djeclipse said:
I used to believe only in the one body part/ day, 6 days a week, 20 sets of curls etc. type training. The typical training you see in those BB mags and you get from the people at the gym.

Then I found this board and learned a lot about training, why the BB style of training wasn't very effective. I was open minded enough to try out new things mainly the 5 x 5. But I also spent time to read as much as I could, even talk to Madcow himself about a few things.

It wasn't just a theory that got me to change my training, it was the fact that this training worked so good I never wanted to go back. I made a lot of gains, got bigger, stronger, with diet I lost a lot of fat and was still able to make gains. It was all thanks to a few people on this board that were willing to talk about proper training and help someone out.

When was the last time you were able to add 5lbs to your bench, squat, Over head press, deadlift for 8-10 weeks straight doing the typical BB type workout?

As for my stats they've been up and down with injury, some medical problems and the side effects of medication related to the medical problem. I have been able to make gains even while on a medication that causes muscle loss as well as bone density loss. I was told by my doctor that if I wasn't lifting heavy the signs of ostepoerosis would be much worse then it is now because of prolonged use of this medication.

So in short lifting heavy has been very beneficial to me.

EDIT: I just wrote a few things on my personal stats but then thought, what does that have to do with anythign in this thread? If I was 230 5% bodyfat does that make me any more informed then if I was a 60 yr old man who hasn't lifted a weight in 20 years, or how about a 300lb man with 30% BF? It doesn't mean that any of these people are smart enough to do research and witness it being applied effectavly.

If that is the case why is this huge strongman wasting his time listening to this small old man in this video?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3pyAmrAQc4E&feature=related

Even though this old man is not 250 8% body fat he knows his shit.
Click to expand...


I hear what your saying and respect a lot of good bros ont his site that all have great info to retain. I ahve read over the training vault material and it has a great backing and rep behind it as well.

No your stats dont tell me if you know what your talking about he just called it out and I was curious is all. Stats wont tell anyone that they dont know what they are talking about but they can tell someone they definately do know what they are talking about if you get what I mean.

for instance if you were 300 lbs with 30 percent you gould be a doctor or anatomical and nutritional sciance (highly unlikely a doctor of that reputation would let that happen but anyhow) still know what your talking about however if you were 270 6 percent shreadded you dont even have to open your mouth for me to know that you obviously know about what you do.
 
Porportional said:
lol like p diddy would say some bitchassness in here.. haha jp, i respect your opinion, and would like to apologize, im sure your praising what works for you, and i respect that, i respect the whole 5x5 program because its great for your core, but in retrospect without diet management it is nothing... also shakes are very vital for post workout like i mentioned, but i also respect some of the things u have said :)
Click to expand...

As far as the post workout shake thing goes... don't be so gullible dude. Don't believe everything you hear, do some research for yourself.

It is a load of complete bull shit that you abslutley need a Post workout shake after working out in order to grow and gain muscle.

Post work out shakes weren't around back when the cave men were out hunting, they weren't around when the romans started the olympics (which was meant to be a test of human strength). These people were able to gain muscle without protien shales. protien shales weren;t even around when everyones hero Arnold started training. It must have been amiracle that they were able to put on any muscle.

But now, all of a sudden everyone needs a post workout shake or we'll never get any bigger or stronger?? Really think about that for a second.

These companies and magazines you're reading/ listening to are trying to sell you a product, and they will say anything to get you to buy into their theory/ product.

A protien shake after a workout can be beneficial, yes. But is it absolutley necessary, not a chance.

The nest source of protein is meat protein hands down, you should not be relying on a protein shake as your #1 source.
 
silverskyline said:
I hear what your saying and respect a lot of good bros ont his site that all have great info to retain. I ahve read over the training vault material and it has a great backing and rep behind it as well.

No your stats dont tell me if you know what your talking about he just called it out and I was curious is all. Stats wont tell anyone that they dont know what they are talking about but they can tell someone they definately do know what they are talking about if you get what I mean.

for instance if you were 300 lbs with 30 percent you gould be a doctor or anatomical and nutritional sciance (highly unlikely a doctor of that reputation would let that happen but anyhow) still know what your talking about however if you were 270 6 percent shreadded you dont even have to open your mouth for me to know that you obviously know about what you do.
Click to expand...

But even if I was 270 6% shreaded that doesn't exactly mean how I got there, or what I am doing now is optimal, or the best way to go about doing it.

You don't know if that guy that is 270 ripped got there by good genetics and a little training. Or by good training, a lot of hard work and proper diet. Or by horrible training, a lot of un necessairy drugs including diaretics etc.

That 270 ripped person could be really healthy or about to drop dead in a few month's because he has poisoned his body so much it's about to shut down.

A great example is Greg Covax. When he was 21 he was training at my gym (I was still in highschool doingthe B mag workout, didn't know any better), he looked shreaded, was huge and a strong MOFO, he went on to compete and did very well. Looking at him you may think "that guy knows his shit, he is doing everything right".

But what you may not know is at 21 he already had his first heart attack! And now he is a mess.

I don't know anyone who in their right mind would listen to anything he has to say about training.
 
djeclipse said:
As far as the post workout shake thing goes... don't be so gullible dude. Don't believe everything you hear, do some research for yourself.

It is a load of complete bull shit that you abslutley need a Post workout shake after working out in order to grow and gain muscle.

Post work out shakes weren't around back when the cave men were out hunting, they weren't around when the romans started the olympics (which was meant to be a test of human strength). These people were able to gain muscle without protien shales. protien shales weren;t even around when everyones hero Arnold started training. It must have been amiracle that they were able to put on any muscle.

But now, all of a sudden everyone needs a post workout shake or we'll never get any bigger or stronger?? Really think about that for a second.

These companies and magazines you're reading/ listening to are trying to sell you a product, and they will say anything to get you to buy into their theory/ product.

A protien shake after a workout can be beneficial, yes. But is it absolutley necessary, not a chance.

The nest source of protein is meat protein hands down, you should not be relying on a protein shake as your #1 source.
Click to expand...


All I ever eat is protein shakes morning day and night 6 times a day I'm huge!

Hahaha I believe in the shake because even though it was not around back then science is always evolving and why not utalize that??? When they discovered the vaccine for the common cold people wernt like hey the cold was around before this BS and everyone else is still alive who has had it.

well no shit but wouldnt you rather not get it if you can.

same for Isolate shakes and quick obsorbtion yeah I can get my protein from animal and have it slow obsorbtion and still get some but why not get it where it's so much more effective? They never used it before that dosnt mean I dont want to utalize it's effectiveness now
 
Bino said:
imo, 5*5 is too easy, esp after doing it a few years.
5*7 i think is a better scheme, fuggin killer on sq days
Click to expand...

I tried 3 x 8 using the same lifts as madcow's 5 x 5, it was a lot harder then I thought, not much of a deload, lol

The 5 x 5 is just template for beginners to learn about lifting, weight progression etc.
 
silverskyline said:
All I ever eat is protein shakes morning day and night 6 times a day I'm huge!

Hahaha I believe in the shake because even though it was not around back then science is always evolving and why not utalize that??? When they discovered the vaccine for the common cold people wernt like hey the cold was around before this BS and everyone else is still alive who has had it.

well no shit but wouldnt you rather not get it if you can.

same for Isolate shakes and quick obsorbtion yeah I can get my protein from animal and have it slow obsorbtion and still get some but why not get it where it's so much more effective? They never used it before that dosnt mean I dont want to utalize it's effectiveness now
Click to expand...

That's right, utilize it because you can, it is there, quick and easy. But it is not 100% necessary for muscle growth. Which is what Porportional and this tool at the supplement store was trying to tell me.

It is beneficial, but not necessary for muscle growth.
 
djeclipse said:
As far as the post workout shake thing goes... don't be so gullible dude. Don't believe everything you hear, do some research for yourself.

It is a load of complete bull shit that you abslutley need a Post workout shake after working out in order to grow and gain muscle.

Post work out shakes weren't around back when the cave men were out hunting, they weren't around when the romans started the olympics (which was meant to be a test of human strength). These people were able to gain muscle without protien shales. protien shales weren;t even around when everyones hero Arnold started training. It must have been amiracle that they were able to put on any muscle.

But now, all of a sudden everyone needs a post workout shake or we'll never get any bigger or stronger?? Really think about that for a second.

These companies and magazines you're reading/ listening to are trying to sell you a product, and they will say anything to get you to buy into their theory/ product.

A protien shake after a workout can be beneficial, yes. But is it absolutley necessary, not a chance.

The nest source of protein is meat protein hands down, you should not be relying on a protein shake as your #1 source.
Click to expand...

Dude read one of my previous posts, about where i mention the catabolic state.. Your muscles are in a catabolic state for upto 30 mins to 1 hour post workout, all im saying is that a post workout shake followed with FOOD, is the best option because the protien will break down faster for your muscles to feed on, obviously if you have food go with food but a postworkout shake does have its benefits along with casein protien. Bodybuilding is alot of science dude, u seem to know alot again about the lifting aspect, but im curious to see whats your diet like.. in the most polite way possible

i just read your other post again, and mean to say its not neccesary to have shakes and still be huge, but they are a great alternative for fast absorption, especially when your muscles need a fast absorption :)
 
djeclipse said:
That's right, utilize it because you can, it is there, quick and easy. But it is not 100% necessary for muscle growth. Which is what Porportional and this tool at the supplement store was trying to tell me.

It is beneficial, but not necessary for muscle growth.
Click to expand...


Agreed
 
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