Women and arimidex

[BigEasy]

Here is a little something for fans of Nolvadex for fat-loss. This is straight from the newly revised (5/2002) patient insert. I'll try and get permission to post the letter sent out to doctors.

You may wish to argue that the study only involved women with existing breast cancer or high-risk patients. But I wouldn't want to push it until all the data are in, which may take quite a while for off-label uses.




Nolvadex patient insert black box warning!

----------------------------------------snip --------------------------------------


NDA 17-970/S-049
Page 3
Rev 05-02
SIC XXXXX-XX
WARNING - For Women with Ductal Carcinoma in Situ (DCIS) and Women at High Risk for Breast
Cancer: Serious and life-threatening events associated with NOLVADEX in the risk reduction setting
(women at high risk for cancer and women with DCIS) include uterine malignancies, stroke and
pulmonary embolism. Incidence rates for these events were estimated from the NSABP P-1 trial (see
CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY-Clinical Studies – Reduction in Breast Cancer Incidence In High Risk
Women). Uterine malignancies consist of both endometrial adenocarcinoma (incidence rate per 1,000
women-years of 2.20 for NOLVADEX vs 0.71 for placebo) and uterine sarcoma (incidence rate per 1,000
women-years of 0.17 for NOLVADEX vs 0.0 for placebo)*. For stroke, the incidence rate per 1,000
women-years was 1.43 for NOLVADEX vs 1.00 for placebo**. For pulmonary embolism, the incidence
rate per 1,000 women-years was 0.75 for NOLVADEX versus 0.25 for placebo**.
Some of the strokes, pulmonary emboli, and uterine malignancies were fatal.
Health care providers should discuss the potential benefits versus the potential risks of these serious events
with women at high risk of breast cancer and women with DCIS considering NOLVADEX to reduce their
risk of developing breast cancer.
The benefits of NOLVADEX outweigh its risks in women already diagnosed with breast cancer.
*Updated long-term follow-up data (median length of follow-up is 6.9 years) from NSABP P-1 study. See
WARNINGS: Effects on the Uterus-Endometrial Cancer and Uterine Sarcoma.
**See Table 3 under CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY-Clinical Studies.
DESCRIPTION
NOLVADEX ® (tamoxifen citrate) Tablets, a nonsteroidal antiestrogen, are for oral administration.
NOLVADEX Tablets are available as:
10 mg Tablets. Each tablet contains 15.2 mg of tamoxifen citrate which is equivalent to 10 mg of
tamoxifen.
20 mg Tablets. Each tablet contains 30.4 mg of tamoxifen citrate which is equivalent to 20 mg of
tamoxifen.
Inactive Ingredients: carboxymethylcellulose calcium, magnesium stearate, mannitol and starch.
--------------------------------------------------snip------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[MS]

Don’t get me started on tamoxifen….I fell for the hype around that drug a few years ago before all the info was in. What we now know about tamoxifen and bodyfat should scare any women away from using it for fat loss (not including the increased risk of ovarian cancer)! There are two classes of estrogen receptors. One called alpha and one called beta. Tamoxifen and it’s hyroxylated metabolites are agonists/anatagonists at the alpha receptors and not the beta. The alpha receptors are plentiful in breast tissue and this makes tamoxifen very good at reducing the effects of estrogen in breast cancer and male gyno. Sadly, the alpha receptor is actually beneficial to reducing subcutaneous fat, and blocking it with tamoxifen is less than beneficial to put it nicely! Aside from that, check out the last of these three studies where they found a significant increase in body fat for women that were treated with tamoxifen!

Site-specific regulation of oestrogen receptor-alpha and -beta by oestradiol in human adipose tissue.

AIM: To examine the expression of oestrogen receptors alpha and beta (ERalpha and ERbeta) and their regulation by 17beta- oestradiol (E2) in adipocytes from human subcutaneous tissue. METHODS: Subcutaneous tissues were obtained from 10 women ……………………….in adipocytes treated with estradiol, ERalpha expression significantly decreased relative to control while ERbeta expression increased………………... The feed-back inhibition of ERalpha expression by estradiol in subcutaneous adipocytes observed in vitro is consistent with the data from ERalpha knock out mice WHERE SUBCUTANEOUS FAT IS INCREASED. Selective ER modulators may have different effects in different adipose sites.


Demonstration of estrogen receptor subtypes alpha and beta in human adipose tissue: influences of adipose cell differentiation and fat depot localization.

A novel ER-subtype, the ER-beta has recently been characterized in various tissues, ………………….. ER-alpha and beta were studied in human adipose tissue. The expression of ER-alpha mRNA was equal in subcutaneous gluteal adipose tissue, subcutaneous abdominal and intra-abdominal adipose tissue, similar findings were obtained at the protein level. ……………….. the existence of ER-beta isoforms in human adipose tissue was demonstrated and THE AMOUNT OF THESE RECEPTORS WAS DEPENDENT UPON FAT DEPOT LOCALIZATION, WITH MUCH REDUCED EXPRESSION OF ER-BETA IN INTRA-ABDOMINAL ADIPOSE TISSUE COMPARED TO SUBCUTANEOUS ADIPOSE TISSUE. These findings may indicate that estrogens and SERMs could have differentiation and depot specific effects in human adipose tissue.

Body composition measurements using DXA and other techniques in tamoxifen-treated patients.

Tamoxifen is an anti-oestrogenic drug which is widely used in the treatment of patients with breast cancer. There is increasing interest in using the drug both for benign breast disease and as a chemo-preventative agent of the drug in women at high risk of breast cancer. Despite the fact that the acute side-effects of the drug are few, its agonistic and antagonistic oestrogenic effects are not fully known and may have some undesirable effects for patients treated with the drug for several years. A number of studies carried out recently indicate a varying degree of change in bone mineral content following treatment with tamoxifen. These studies concentrated mainly on bone mineral density measurements only and non of them reported the effects of tamoxifen on lean body mass and fat mass. In this study we measured lean body mass and fat mass in tamoxifen-treated females and a comparison group to determine the difference between the two groups. Twenty-six women receiving tamoxifen (20 mg/d) have participated in this study. The control group comprised 31 healthy women of a similar age. Total body bone mineral was measured using a dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA). Similarly, regional and total body soft tissue (lean and fat tissue) were measured using the DXA system. In addition to DXA measurements, percentage body fat (%BF) was measured using total body potassium counting, skinfold anthropometry, infrared interactance and bioelectric impedance analysis. …………………. there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measurement. Similarly there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measured by other body composition techniques. Although there is no other research reported on the effects of tamoxifen on %BF, this retrospective study indicates that tamoxifen may lead to increase in fat content in women who are subjected to this treatment. WE CONCLUDE THAT THIS OBSERVATION IS PROBABLY RELATED TO THE AGONISTIC OESTROGENIC EFFECT OF TAMOXIFEN ON BODY FAT. To our knowledge this deleterious effect has not been reported before and it should be taken into considerable when comprising different types of anti-oestrogenic drugs. Furthermore, patients should be warned about this side-effect when they are prescribed Tamoxifen therapy.

 

[SuperVixen]

women and anti estrogen pills

I take Novaldex, 40 mg per day. I love it. I feel stronger in the gym and the typical fat pattern on women (lower body) is begining to reduce. I've been on now for almost a month. Also, periods are very light, my breasts used to get so sore I couldn't sleep on my tummy. Now they hardly hurt at all.

I'm not so sure about the long term side effects. So, far for me I've only had positive things happen. Dan Duchaine recommends females take 10mg for the rest of our lives to reduce lower body fat.

 

[BigEasy]

SV,
I would be very surprised if the Nolvadex is really making that much of a difference. (Yes, I am sure that it is making *some* difference) My guess is that it's your dedication to diet and workouts that are mostly responsible for your fat reduction/redistribution.

As far a sides from Nolva., be sure to read the entire patient insert. Especially read the BLACK BOX warning right at the top of the newly revised (May 2002) patient insert. At least be aware of the possible dangers. Depending on your risk level for breast cancer, the risks associated with Nolva use appear somewhat proportional to breast cancer risk.

Just be informed.

 

[MS]

Yes, this board is here to inform (mainly). If Dan Duchaine were alive today, I can guarantee you he would have changed his recommendations for women to take nolvadex for lower body fat based on the above research (and other research I haven't presented here) that just wasn't around when he gave that advice. Aside from all of the compelling research that Nolvadex can actually hinder female fat loss or even lead to increased fat gain is the obvious fact that there are not a lot of premenopausal women with breast cancer suddenly developing lean thighs! However, as said before, Nolvadex is a great antiestrogen in breast tissue and if you're happy with the results then we certainly won't convince you to stop taking it.

Sigh. The problem with Dan Duchaine is that he died too early. He's left a legacy of what has turned out to be incorrect advice for women, but because so many BBs took his word as the gospel it will be very hard to dispel many of the ideas he put into peoples heads. He was a great forward thinking man, but he was NOT psychic.

 

[Counterstrike]

for a female 30 years old is it safe or not to take nolva or L-dex for fat reduction? I would think L-dx is better than novla but i could be wrong. whats a safe dose withthe least sides to reduce BF? Also is it permanent BF loss or it can comes back easily? I know diet is the key but tring to understand this to see if is safe or just stick to Clen for her or us both?

 

[Sassy69]

Counterstrike - to respond to your question, it has been asked numerous times on here so you will get some more info doing a search on both the women's board & the AS board on "arimidex, women". The last post on the below thread by MS should give you a place to start:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=133775&highlight=ldex

 

[Counterstrike]

tired fo reading peoples cut and paste 6 pages long freakign articles with the science terms. just read my question is that simple. L-dex compare to novla at i already wrote her age etc...

 

[Daisy_Girl]

In a word, NO. It is not safe/useful for a 30yo female to take Ldex or Nolva.

The link Sassy provided stated that - and it wasn't 6 pages long with scientific terms.

 

[MS]

Since you can't even be bothered reading this current post, I've taken the liberty of cut 'n paste from sassy's link my answer to this question:
"Arimidex by itself is close to useless in women with functional ovaries. This is why it's mainly used in POST menopausal women, or women who have had their ovaries removed. It may be of use for serious female BBs who are using decent amounts of aromatizeable gear. Their ovaries are often not very functional and their main source of estrogen may be from peripheral conversion (same as men). But normal women, NO.

Nolvadex is estrogenic in most tissues, but is strongly anti-estrogenic in breast tissue. This is why it's used in treating/ preventing breast cancer in both pre and postmenopausal women. So it really won't help with general estrogenic fat deposits either. There is in fact evidence that Nolvadex increases fat deposition in women, rather then decreases. Again, very lean, serious female BBs may be the exception, but they use it to 'harden up' close to competitions when they've already got their %bf very low through diet, exercise and AAS/hGH/clen, etc....."

It's not even a question of safety for fatloss. It's a question of efficacy.