Which split do you like better?

[spatts]

I think gains are all relative. Some of the numbers you give me, in terms of strength and size gains, I would find disappointing for my personal expectations. If it motivates you, that's the imortant thing.

 

[Debaser]

I am so proud of him, does he pay you to kiss his ass like this? Myself I have gone from 140lbs to 235lbs with my training methods, that is a gain of 95lbs, and I'm still growing like a weed. But even though my 95lbs is more than his 80, somehow my routine is garbage and I should follow his approach if I want to grow?

And you're missing the point. I never said you would not make gains on another program, that's obviously not true. However, this seems to be the FASTEST way to make gains, and from EVERY SINGLE PERSON (from clean ectomorph to juiced mesomorph) I've talked to or read posts from that have tried this program CORRECTLY, they agreed.

I didn't say he picked up guys who had never trained in their life, and then put 90 pounds on them. Here are a few examples he gave:

BTW This is at the same or less bodyfat

1)188 to 260(2.5 years)

2)172 to 254 (3 years)

3)208 to 261(clean! genetic mesomorph 1 year)

4)218 to 275 (cut his juice in half, doubled his protein, showed him how to train correctly-2 years)

 

[Scottyo]

Debaser, I too am following DC's routine so I agree with you there. But listen to what these people are actually saying. These routines ARE working, and effectively. All DC is giving is 1 routine that works and is proven to work continuously with many different people. Don't knock needsize's or others routine's unless you try it. If he can consistently gain impressive size and strength with his routine, should he throw that out the window right now? DC has got some really good ideas and I love his program, but let him fight his battles for himself. Share his information, let your results speak for themselves, otherwise you just come off sounding like an infomercial

 

[collegiateLifter]

b fold actually, while not following DC's routine, he has adopted the central premise of it (getting much stronger),

you can't attribute that to DC in anyway. the Principle of overload, meaning that you have to continually challenge your body w/ heavier weights et al to make adaptations, is at work in any effective program.

 

[Debaser]

I'm sorry but you're missing the point here.

You do have to challenge yourself with heavier and heavier weights. However, these volume routines such as the one posted here are so ineffective at that. When you do 20 sets just for your chest, are you going to be able to add weight to all of those sets every single week? And even if you DO, you're still only working your chest once per week. With DC's training it's worked twice one week and once the next. And you add weight and train intensively every single week.

Now, why would the volume routine give you better gains? You either A. overtrain and/or B. have once a week frequency

Neither of those sound very appealing.

I agree, needsize has had good results. But how many fucking people on this forum do you think will get gains like that? Most of the people here are under 200 lbs. A lot of people are getting frustrated because THEY SIMPLY CANNOT GAIN ON THESE 4-6 DAY VOLUME SPLITS, and a lot are turning to gear as a result when they haven't even broken a 250 lb bench press. I'm trying to put a stop to that kind of nonsense.

I'm not trying to flame anyone or bust people's chops. I'm just trying to make them realize the effectiveness of a DC or similar routine. It has just worked spectacularly for everyone I've talked to that gave it a true shot.

I just hit 200 lbs today. It's only been 8 months or so since I started training, and I gained very little the first 2 or 3 because of a lack of training knowledge. I started at 170, and I'm at roughly the same level bodyfat. I consider those gains pretty fucking good for a natural. I bet I'd be even bigger if I ate correctly every day. But try eating 400+ g of protein every day for 8 months. It's a nice thought but somewhere along the line you'll probably fuck up.

 

[emptywallet]

Make sure you hit the muscle from "every angle" to ensure "complete development" of the muscle?

That statement is just dripping with sarcasm and I'm sure you meant it to be that way. However I've read those exact words before from DC himself in the animal thread. You sound like some sort of recycle bin for the guy when it comes to comments. There isnt anything wrong with that, if its worked well for you, and you truly believe in it, which it looks like you do. So explain this to me then, these are also words directly from DC mouth:

". For me my chest exercises are high incline smith machine press, hammer seated flat press and slight incline smith press with hands very, very wide----this is because I look at my physique and I feel my problem area is upper and outer pecs---that is my focus. "

Say what? Your picking exercises that tend to hit the muscle from a different angle, and ensure complete developement of your chest? HUH?? I thought you just said not to? Isnt that what Debaser is telling me? Debaser, please explain, as what you've told me before, is that there is no need to try and fix certain areas or target certain areas, that when you can lift massive amounts those areas well be well developed enough. HOWEVER, it doesnt appear DC approaches everything this way all the time. I'm kinda confused on that.

 

[Debaser]

1. Since you pick 3 exercises to alternate between days, those are 3 competent chest moves. I don't see him doing cable crossovers or flyes or other such bullshit.

2. When you're a muscular 290 pounds, you can work on "problem areas" too. Most of the people here who complain they have no upper chest weigh less than 200 lbs. Or even much less. They have no upper chest because they have no chest period.

3. I am not completely sure if you can work on your upper chest. However, Since I'm picking 3 exercises anyway, I have one of those as an incline bench, because it's a good exercise, even if it doesn't really work on your "upper chest." I am not convinced if it does, but like I said it doesn't really matter. I do bench, incline bench, and dips personally.

4. The chest is a pretty large muscle group. Some people actually try to isolate 3 different parts of the triceps and work them individually. Next time you get more out of a cable triceps kickback than a 300 lb close grip bench or reverse bench, let me know. Or, like DC says, go ahead and do your bent over laterals with featherweight dumbells while he rack pulls 500+ lbs and rows several plates. Who do you think will have the bigger rear delts?

 

[emptywallet]

1. Since you pick 3 exercises to alternate between days, those are 3 competent chest moves. I don't see him doing cable crossovers or flyes or other such bullshit.

2. When you're a muscular 290 pounds, you can work on "problem areas" too. Most of the people here who complain they have no upper chest weigh less than 200 lbs. Or even much less. They have no upper chest because they have no chest period.

3. I am not completely sure if you can work on your upper chest. However, Since I'm picking 3 exercises anyway, I have one of those as an incline bench, because it's a good exercise, even if it doesn't really work on your "upper chest." I am not convinced if it does, but like I said it doesn't really matter. I do bench, incline bench, and dips personally.

4. The chest is a pretty large muscle group. Some people actually try to isolate 3 different parts of the triceps and work them individually. Next time you get more out of a cable triceps kickback than a 300 lb close grip bench or reverse bench, let me know. Or, like DC says, go ahead and do your bent over laterals with featherweight dumbells while he rack pulls 500+ lbs and rows several plates. Who do you think will have the bigger rear delts?

See, now was that so hard? Your helping me learn here, and thats whats important. That was a very good response. You didnt jump at me or slam what I was doing, and you explained it very well. Im impressed enough to make some changes, though not now since this is working so well. By the way, how tall are you?