Which split do you like better?

[emptywallet]

Which split do you like better and why? This will be with 500mgs of Enanthate weekly.

My current Routine:

Chest/Tri
Back
OFF
Bi's/Abs
Shoulders/Traps
Legs
OFF

***OR***

Chest/Tri
OFF
Back/Bi
OFF
Shoulders/Traps
OFF
Legs

Only thing is, the back/bi routine will take it all out of me, as I'm dead on back day. Any thoughts?

 

[emptywallet]

Any replies at all?

 

[spatts]

I like the second one. Rest goooooooood.

 

[needsize]

I know I preach about this a lot, but I dont understand the reason for separating shoulders and back. When you train shoulders, ie, military press and laterals, traps are getting hit. But then a few days later you do deads and smoke them again. Even on gear, with only a 1 day break, your body might not be able to recover from that. Why not put them together, destroy back and sholders in one day, and have a week to heal.
Just a thought

 

[Debaser]

Any replies at all?

Check out the DC thread man if you want to grow a whole lot faster than that...

And please, abandon the routines of bodybuilding mags for good.

 

[emptywallet]

Check out the DC thread man if you want to grow a whole lot faster than that...

And please, abandon the routines of bodybuilding mags for good.

I'm actually kind of offended by that. You know that half the people on here don't use dogcrapps trainings right? Do you even know why? ITS NOT FOR EVERYBODY. Needsize tends to do just fine, and his routine is no where near like dogcrapps. Alot of other members as well. It just sounds quite ignorant in your making a statement like that. I incorporate some of DC's principles. However I don't get much out of the rest pause concept. It could be my distribution of different types of fibers, I have no idea. I know I'm figuring out what works for me slowly, but surely (thanks Bouncer!) and I have never gotten any of my routines out of a mag thank you. I'm sorry you see it that way. And please abandon the idea that one good routine works for everyone, for good.

 

[Debaser]

Rest-pause is not the central premise of his workout. And those routines, while I'm sure you just didn't pull them off a mag, are the EXACT kinds that are always printed in the mags. Let me guess, you're going to do something like 3 sets of flat bench, 3 sets of incline, 3 sets of flyes for chest? Or something not too different? Make sure you hit the muscle from "every angle" to ensure "complete development" of the muscle.

About DC training not working for everybody, why the hell wouldn't it? Tell me what trainees would not benefit from intense training, where their strength progresses constantly, with LOTS OF RECOVERY (extreme stretching helps immensely) along with huge amounts of protein and food.

What people need to realize about everyone being different, from DC:


I laugh at the constant remarks i hear on these boards about "everyone is different".....what works for one guy wont work for the next. BULLSHIT!!! Heres my answer to that---please feel free to explain to me how everyone is so different please....What am i potted plant, you an amoeba and that guy over there a rock?!?! Recovery rates are varying and genetic predispositions are varying (predominance of fiber type, myostatin etc etc etc)--we are all human beings, but people make this sound like we are made up of a whole bunch of different materials. There are 400 pro bodybuilders out there in this world and according to some people they are all completely made up differently. Their genetic gifts are different but I can tell you one thing. If every one of those 400 guys never went past 135lb benching and 185lb squats none of them would be pros--NOT A ONE! The Bottom line is everyone has genetic size limits and to get there you are definitely going to have to go to extremes to get to your genetic strength limits along with a couple other workload output factors. (with diet and drugs and supplements also being in that mix) And I believe that is true of any "human being" on this planet. You take those 400 pro bodybuilders and put them all on the same routine (as long as every one of them dont overtrain)--what do you think is going to happen? You think 300 of them are going to shrink down into skeletons because "everyone is different"? You think Ronnie Coleman has better genetics than Flex Wheeler (who has a mutated myostatin gene-proven)? I say Ronnie Coleman is going to the extreme genetic strength limits while flex trains in the comfort zone with light weights--thats the difference in those 2 guys and the reason why Coleman is so dramatically bigger. You put great genetics with heavy heavy progressive lifting and Ill show you a huge bodybuilder. You take awful genetics and heavy heavy progressive lifting and Ill show you a bodybuilder that can be as good as his genetics allow. There are slews of people out there lifting according to there percieved slow twitch fiber types. Have you seen anyone doing that kind of training who ever gets concievably bigger? I sure as hell havent. Every successful training scheme is based around not overtraining and progression, it doesnt matter if you do 100 sets or 1 set---as long as you arent overtraining and are progressing upwards with weights/reps/whatever it will be successfull.....and that goes for every human being on this planet. If you can volume train progressively and not overtrain--go for it --you will be successfull. The same with low volume training. My whole idea which alot of people in these forums cant seem to grasp is--"training a bodypart as often as possible"--you cant train a bodypart very often if you are doing 20 sets a bodypart. That is the main difference I have with others. I want to grow at the fastest rate possible. Does that mean your not going to grow from 20 sets a bodypart if you dont overtrain? hell no you absolutely will. You just wont be able to train that bodypart as often as the people I train do.
If you stay with the same training weights for the next 10 years you arent going to be much larger. You triple your training weights in the next 5 years--and your going to be a walking house. No matter how different you might percieve people to be (chinese, white, black, fast twitch, slow twitch etc etc) if you get that person up the progression ladder (without overtraining) to the top of the charts with reps/weights/etc they will be as good as their genetics will allow because everyone "isnt so different"..

 

[needsize]

I'm actually kind of offended by that. You know that half the people on here don't use dogcrapps trainings right? Do you even know why? ITS NOT FOR EVERYBODY. Needsize tends to do just fine, and his routine is no where near like dogcrapps. Alot of other members as well. It just sounds quite ignorant in your making a statement like that. I incorporate some of DC's principles. However I don't get much out of the rest pause concept. It could be my distribution of different types of fibers, I have no idea. I know I'm figuring out what works for me slowly, but surely (thanks Bouncer!) and I have never gotten any of my routines out of a mag thank you. I'm sorry you see it that way. And please abandon the idea that one good routine works for everyone, for good.

i was thinking that as well about the nature of the reply, but wasnt going to bother replying. Myt only problem with the DC approach, is that every time I see someone post about it, they are trashing all other routines in favour of theirs. i dont buy that it is the most effective training philosophy out there and that it will work that well for every one. I'm not saying that DC isnt effective, but I'm getting pretty sick of the constant flames towards anything other than that approach

 

[Citruscide]

Debaser -- I don't doubt DC's programs work .. .and work wonders... but OTHER concepts work as well too! You don't think BFold is a 280-290lb monster because his shit don't work do you?

It's really awesome that you have found a plan that is kicking your ass, and that you are REALLY into it. Hell, after reading DC's post, I would think about incorporating one or two of his concepts into my workout... maybe for biceps... or something along that line... but the fact is... 5x5 works well, the constantly fluxing plan I'm on now... works well ... the trio of Project, Hannibal, and Spatts are on their program (if they are??) and they seem to be making gains... HELL ... look at Project!! No offense brother, but you looked REAL bad when you started, and now you are coming into and BEYOND your own...

It's not all about everyone doing ONE routine... there ARE more things that work out there... and if you are that dead set on getting people to TRY the DC routine, I have some advice for you. If I want someone to try Diet Dr. Pepper... I don't say "Your pop is crap... you drink mine" -- it turns people off... Calm down, think things through... and please, don't force feed us Doggcrapp (hey, that was kind of funny!)

C-ditty

 

[Debaser]

I think DC training is the best personally, as you guys know. I don't discourage other competent routines, and b fold actually, while not following DC's routine, he has adopted the central premise of it (getting much stronger), and I replied about that in his new PR thread.

I will, however, flame those 4 or 5 day a week splits because they really are what the Weider/BB mags have been peddling for years, and have caused COUNTLESS trainees frustration, and inevitably giving up in the sport. I feel like I have a personal vendetta against that kind of thing.

I was sooo lucky to have discovered productive training early on, I know guys that have wasted 5-10 years of their training lives by doing a routine exactly like the one described in this post. I'm trying to prevent others from repeating the same mistakes.

 

[The Architect]

Your current routine looks better. Two days off is all you need.

 

[Lord_Suston]

Empty try this

D1 Legs/ shoulder; I alternate one set of military with one of squats for 5 sets for each excercise after warmups. then lunges alternating with upright rows. then SLDL alternating with lateral raises. then finish off with shrugs

D2 rest

D3 Back/ bis

D4 rest

D5 Chest/ tris

D6 rest
D7 rest

 

[emptywallet]

i was thinking that as well about the nature of the reply, but wasnt going to bother replying. Myt only problem with the DC approach, is that every time I see someone post about it, they are trashing all other routines in favour of theirs. i dont buy that it is the most effective training philosophy out there and that it will work that well for every one. I'm not saying that DC isnt effective, but I'm getting pretty sick of the constant flames towards anything other than that approach

:sigh: Thank you.

 

[solidj55]

I would either do one of these two splits.

Chest/front and side delts
Back/rear delts/traps
Off
Legs
Tris/Bis
Off
Off

OR...

Chest
Back/Shoulders
Off
Legs
Tris/Bis
Off
Off

Just my opinion though because personally I dont lift like this.

 

[emptywallet]

I would either do one of these two splits.

Chest/front and side delts
Back/rear delts/traps
Off
Legs
Tris/Bis
Off
Off

OR...

Chest
Back/Shoulders
Off
Legs
Tris/Bis
Off
Off

Just my opinion though because personally I dont lift like this.

Well then how do you lift?

 

[Debaser]

:sigh: Thank you.

See above. Weider would be proud of you.

If you want to be so stubborn, that's fine. DC talks about this all the time, how no one wants to believe that they're not training the best way/fastest way to gain muscle. And they take it personally. I'm trying to help this board out by abandoning all the fucking bullshit that has plagued the BB world.

Again this goes along what citrus was saying about bfold. Yes the guy is huge. He just pulled over 700 lbs. How about you? How about 500? Less? Much less? Think maybe you'd be a lot bigger if you worked toward that?

I'm willing to bet I'm making close to or better gains than you will and you're gonna be on 500 mg a week while I'm natural. Realize that the LEAST lbs of muscle he has put on a trainee he has personally trained is 47. NEARLY 50 LBS, and he's put as much as EIGHTY POUNDS on some guys. At least one guy was clean, and the others were at doses less than I see some of you guys post up on the anabolic board.

I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

 

[solidj55]

Well then how do you lift?

I just posted what my new workout will look like and asked for comments, questions, concerns, flames, etc. I could outline my current routine but its more of a "getting by" routine at the moment because of my work schedule and the fact that I am about to get sent to and 8 week academy/boot camp next week where I will not be lifting but maybe once per week. The new workout I posted will be the one I will start once I get back from the academy.

 

[spatts]

i was thinking that as well about the nature of the reply, but wasnt going to bother replying. Myt only problem with the DC approach, is that every time I see someone post about it, they are trashing all other routines in favour of theirs. i dont buy that it is the most effective training philosophy out there and that it will work that well for every one. I'm not saying that DC isnt effective, but I'm getting pretty sick of the constant flames towards anything other than that approach

Exactly. We are not all the same. Some of us have different ratios of type I to type II fibers, some of us have inefficient motor units, etc...basic materials, yes, we're all the same. Should DC's workout work for everyone? Yes. Is it the only one? No. Debasser, there are lifters in here doing WSB and 5x5 that are alot bigger and stronger than you for their size and time training...does that mean they should switch because they're all made out of the same meat you are?

For the most part, I agree with you. I train with a variety of volumes, but know deep down that it's the compound heavy work, and conjugated periodization, that get me where I'm going.

It's the delivery method, not the training regimen, that's turning people off.

 

[emptywallet]

See above. Weider would be proud of you.

If you want to be so stubborn, that's fine. DC talks about this all the time, how no one wants to believe that they're not training the best way/fastest way to gain muscle. And they take it personally. I'm trying to help this board out by abandoning all the fucking bullshit that has plagued the BB world.

Again this goes along what citrus was saying about bfold. Yes the guy is huge. He just pulled over 700 lbs. How about you? How about 500? Less? Much less? Think maybe you'd be a lot bigger if you worked toward that?

I'm willing to bet I'm making close to or better gains than you will and you're gonna be on 500 mg a week while I'm natural. Realize that the LEAST lbs of muscle he has put on a trainee he has personally trained is 47. NEARLY 50 LBS, and he's put as much as EIGHTY POUNDS on some guys. At least one guy was clean, and the others were at doses less than I see some of you guys post up on the anabolic board.

I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I do not take it personal. Its the way you stated it. If you had simply said, Hey, EW, ever give Dogcrapp a try? Or ever try out some of DC's methods? I would have talked about it with you to know end man. I'm NOT being stubborn. Simply reacting to the ignorance you displayed above, and how you continue to display it through the thread. Does it get to you that much when someone disagrees with you that you have to resort to trying to insult me? How old are? Still a teenager or first couple of years in college? Please, learn how to communicate with people. Next thing you know your going to be attacking my spelling. Some of you guys posting up on the anabolic board.....Deb, the most I've ever taken of anything at one time was 500mgs. I'm flowed back and forth between weights because of life's nice little curve balls. But its ok, there's more to it than lifting sometimes. I'll get it right one day because I don't quit. If I tried a complete DC training method this summer again, and it worked wonderfully, I'd fully expect you to say I told you so, or something similiar because you seem like that kind of person. And you know what, thats ok, it doesnt really get to me. How many long drawn out threads have to seen me type to you responded to how you replied to me in the beginning? This is the first one. We're all a family here on this board. We pretty much keep it seperate between this board and the anabolic board. Two different groups here. I float over to the other from time to time, like this weekend. Its no big deal. As for you putting on as much mass or more than me in the same amount of time, does it really matter to you that much? I would suggest you put on a jacket or sweater of some sort, as to maybe provide some thicker skin. I was thinking about even replying, but I guess I got drawn into it against my better judgement. Point is, if you hadn't spit out what you did earlier, at the top, then we would have never gotten this far and probably both you and I would have learned quite a bit. You know what, forget it, I doubt you'll even get what I'm trying to say anyway. Goodnight.

 

[needsize]

NEARLY 50 LBS, and he's put as much as EIGHTY POUNDS on some guys. At least one guy was clean, and the others were at doses less than I see some of you guys post up on the anabolic board.

I am so proud of him, does he pay you to kiss his ass like this? Myself I have gone from 140lbs to 235lbs with my training methods, that is a gain of 95lbs, and I'm still growing like a weed. But even though my 95lbs is more than his 80, somehow my routine is garbage and I should follow his approach if I want to grow?

 

[spatts]

I think gains are all relative. Some of the numbers you give me, in terms of strength and size gains, I would find disappointing for my personal expectations. If it motivates you, that's the imortant thing.

 

[Debaser]

I am so proud of him, does he pay you to kiss his ass like this? Myself I have gone from 140lbs to 235lbs with my training methods, that is a gain of 95lbs, and I'm still growing like a weed. But even though my 95lbs is more than his 80, somehow my routine is garbage and I should follow his approach if I want to grow?

And you're missing the point. I never said you would not make gains on another program, that's obviously not true. However, this seems to be the FASTEST way to make gains, and from EVERY SINGLE PERSON (from clean ectomorph to juiced mesomorph) I've talked to or read posts from that have tried this program CORRECTLY, they agreed.

I didn't say he picked up guys who had never trained in their life, and then put 90 pounds on them. Here are a few examples he gave:

BTW This is at the same or less bodyfat

1)188 to 260(2.5 years)

2)172 to 254 (3 years)

3)208 to 261(clean! genetic mesomorph 1 year)

4)218 to 275 (cut his juice in half, doubled his protein, showed him how to train correctly-2 years)

 

[Scottyo]

Debaser, I too am following DC's routine so I agree with you there. But listen to what these people are actually saying. These routines ARE working, and effectively. All DC is giving is 1 routine that works and is proven to work continuously with many different people. Don't knock needsize's or others routine's unless you try it. If he can consistently gain impressive size and strength with his routine, should he throw that out the window right now? DC has got some really good ideas and I love his program, but let him fight his battles for himself. Share his information, let your results speak for themselves, otherwise you just come off sounding like an infomercial

 

[collegiateLifter]

b fold actually, while not following DC's routine, he has adopted the central premise of it (getting much stronger),

you can't attribute that to DC in anyway. the Principle of overload, meaning that you have to continually challenge your body w/ heavier weights et al to make adaptations, is at work in any effective program.

 

[Debaser]

I'm sorry but you're missing the point here.

You do have to challenge yourself with heavier and heavier weights. However, these volume routines such as the one posted here are so ineffective at that. When you do 20 sets just for your chest, are you going to be able to add weight to all of those sets every single week? And even if you DO, you're still only working your chest once per week. With DC's training it's worked twice one week and once the next. And you add weight and train intensively every single week.

Now, why would the volume routine give you better gains? You either A. overtrain and/or B. have once a week frequency

Neither of those sound very appealing.

I agree, needsize has had good results. But how many fucking people on this forum do you think will get gains like that? Most of the people here are under 200 lbs. A lot of people are getting frustrated because THEY SIMPLY CANNOT GAIN ON THESE 4-6 DAY VOLUME SPLITS, and a lot are turning to gear as a result when they haven't even broken a 250 lb bench press. I'm trying to put a stop to that kind of nonsense.

I'm not trying to flame anyone or bust people's chops. I'm just trying to make them realize the effectiveness of a DC or similar routine. It has just worked spectacularly for everyone I've talked to that gave it a true shot.

I just hit 200 lbs today. It's only been 8 months or so since I started training, and I gained very little the first 2 or 3 because of a lack of training knowledge. I started at 170, and I'm at roughly the same level bodyfat. I consider those gains pretty fucking good for a natural. I bet I'd be even bigger if I ate correctly every day. But try eating 400+ g of protein every day for 8 months. It's a nice thought but somewhere along the line you'll probably fuck up.

 

[emptywallet]

Make sure you hit the muscle from "every angle" to ensure "complete development" of the muscle?

That statement is just dripping with sarcasm and I'm sure you meant it to be that way. However I've read those exact words before from DC himself in the animal thread. You sound like some sort of recycle bin for the guy when it comes to comments. There isnt anything wrong with that, if its worked well for you, and you truly believe in it, which it looks like you do. So explain this to me then, these are also words directly from DC mouth:

". For me my chest exercises are high incline smith machine press, hammer seated flat press and slight incline smith press with hands very, very wide----this is because I look at my physique and I feel my problem area is upper and outer pecs---that is my focus. "

Say what? Your picking exercises that tend to hit the muscle from a different angle, and ensure complete developement of your chest? HUH?? I thought you just said not to? Isnt that what Debaser is telling me? Debaser, please explain, as what you've told me before, is that there is no need to try and fix certain areas or target certain areas, that when you can lift massive amounts those areas well be well developed enough. HOWEVER, it doesnt appear DC approaches everything this way all the time. I'm kinda confused on that.

 

[Debaser]

1. Since you pick 3 exercises to alternate between days, those are 3 competent chest moves. I don't see him doing cable crossovers or flyes or other such bullshit.

2. When you're a muscular 290 pounds, you can work on "problem areas" too. Most of the people here who complain they have no upper chest weigh less than 200 lbs. Or even much less. They have no upper chest because they have no chest period.

3. I am not completely sure if you can work on your upper chest. However, Since I'm picking 3 exercises anyway, I have one of those as an incline bench, because it's a good exercise, even if it doesn't really work on your "upper chest." I am not convinced if it does, but like I said it doesn't really matter. I do bench, incline bench, and dips personally.

4. The chest is a pretty large muscle group. Some people actually try to isolate 3 different parts of the triceps and work them individually. Next time you get more out of a cable triceps kickback than a 300 lb close grip bench or reverse bench, let me know. Or, like DC says, go ahead and do your bent over laterals with featherweight dumbells while he rack pulls 500+ lbs and rows several plates. Who do you think will have the bigger rear delts?

 

[emptywallet]

1. Since you pick 3 exercises to alternate between days, those are 3 competent chest moves. I don't see him doing cable crossovers or flyes or other such bullshit.

2. When you're a muscular 290 pounds, you can work on "problem areas" too. Most of the people here who complain they have no upper chest weigh less than 200 lbs. Or even much less. They have no upper chest because they have no chest period.

3. I am not completely sure if you can work on your upper chest. However, Since I'm picking 3 exercises anyway, I have one of those as an incline bench, because it's a good exercise, even if it doesn't really work on your "upper chest." I am not convinced if it does, but like I said it doesn't really matter. I do bench, incline bench, and dips personally.

4. The chest is a pretty large muscle group. Some people actually try to isolate 3 different parts of the triceps and work them individually. Next time you get more out of a cable triceps kickback than a 300 lb close grip bench or reverse bench, let me know. Or, like DC says, go ahead and do your bent over laterals with featherweight dumbells while he rack pulls 500+ lbs and rows several plates. Who do you think will have the bigger rear delts?

See, now was that so hard? Your helping me learn here, and thats whats important. That was a very good response. You didnt jump at me or slam what I was doing, and you explained it very well. Im impressed enough to make some changes, though not now since this is working so well. By the way, how tall are you?