Which do you believe is resposible for more strength gains, CNS stimulation or Muscle

[ZZuluZ]

Yeah; women tend to have a great deal less hypertrophy, so for them neural efficiency is definitely the greatest part of strength gains.

" Based on absolutely no scientific evidence, as there has never been a study done comparing the two, I would say they are of equal imporatnce. If the fibers are not sufficient to do the job, no matter how strong the signal from the motoneuron, not a whole lot will happen. "

I disagree. Again, there are 130 pounders lift huge amounts of weight out there. There are 90 pound women flipping cars.

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

The ninety pound women flipping cars is a good example of the endocrine system overloading the nervous system, not CNS activation.

And I never said their were not 130 pound lifters moving incredible weights. The point I was trying to make was that while they had better CNS function, they could lift even more if they got bigger. The issue in their case is that what they are currently doing is based mainly on CNS. This is not true for everyone, and furthermore, if one condsiders absolute strength levels wrt total weight lifted, they are doing quite poorly.

The point I was trying to make is that everybody is different, everybody can get better, and everyone should try to work on what is lacking, whether it be CNS, PSNS, endocrine response, hypertrophy, etc.

 

[ZZuluZ]

But potentiating the nervous system, it could be argued, will acount for more than 50% of the strength gains you'll make.

If a 150 pound guy can bench 450 pounds but a guy twice his size cannot bench 900 pounds that is evidence that the nervous system is a more potent factor in gaining strength.

This isn't to discount hypertrophy; it is very important especially if weight is not a concern.

-Zulu

 

[solidj55]

ZZuluZ- Ok sorry Im a dumbass but your going to have to tell me what some things are. What is Supramaximal Eccentrics and Isometrics? What are waves? What is Synaptic Facilitation? What is Hyperridiation?

 

[Arioch]

If a 150 pound guy can bench 450 pounds but a guy twice his size cannot bench 900 pounds that is evidence that the nervous system is a more potent factor in gaining strength.

Nope. Depends on percent body fat, percent actual muscle vs other types of lbm, amount of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, fiber type and disposition.

Example: I have a disproportionate number of slow twitch fibers in my triceps. (71% vs. measured mean of 54%) In addition to long arms and a short torso. My bench sucks. I know through IEMG, MVIC, that I rate code at a very high level, secondary to both genetics and decades as an OL'er. There are numerous people without my measured CNS response that can out bench me.

This question is far to complex to break down to one or the other, CNS or Hypertrophy.

 

[ZZuluZ]

" Nope. Depends on percent body fat, percent actual muscle vs other types of lbm, amount of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, fiber type and disposition. "

Even then. I'll let you find a single example of how any amount of pure hypertrophy is more potent than a good nervous system.

Pick ANY athlete of any size. Take the world's biggest bench. He must have ideal conditions of ALL kinds. And all those conditions still don't outbench, relatively, a 150 pounder.

But I see your point.

'ZZuluZ- Ok sorry Im a dumbass but your going to have to tell me what some things are. What is Supramaximal Eccentrics and Isometrics? What are waves? What is Synaptic Facilitation? What is Hyperridiation?"

Supramaximal refers to weights bigger than your 1RM.

Waves: Going up and down. Ex: A 1RM followed by a 6RM followed by a 1RM..

Synaptic Facilitation: Doing a movement very often.

Hyperridation: Tensing all other muscles.

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

Numerous athletes do well despite poor program design which does not provide for optimal CNS stimulation.

Example: James Henderson, 711 Raw. No clue how to train. Both maximal attempts and light weight lifts the bar move slowly. This would tend to display either poor enervation and/or autogenic inhibition. Does well despite not optimizing his CNS.

I never said that hypertrophy is more important, only that there are too many factors to consider, within both categories, to make a concrete decision. Men much more knowledgeable than I, such as Garhammer, Enoka, Hakkinen, Komi, etc. have not been able to come to a decision either, and are still trying to improve our knowledge base so that future generations will be able to train in a more optimal manner. We are current limited by our insufficient understanding of the functions of the human body, as well as our measurement techniques, to give an answer one way or the other. I was at a seminar in where Hakkinen was asked something very similar, and his answer was something along the lines of "I don't know one percent of what I would need to in order to be able to answer your question."

You are the one trying to prove that the CNS is more important than hypertrophy, and the onus is on you to do so. Please provide sources, relevant examples, including measured rate coding, motor unit synchronization, etc. in two groups. Train one group so that only the CNS is trained, and other so that only hypertrophy is trained. Establish a control group if necessary.

Display your results.

You cannot do so.

The two are simply so intertwined that at some levels they start to overlap. The muscle spindle itself will undergo phyiological changes,as well as the fibers, during the hypertrophic process. Yet these are both, in some way, part of the CNS system, even if only as axions. At what point do we drawn the line?


If you come up with a way to do so, let me know and i will be happy to become your graduate advisor one day.

 

[benchmonster]

Thanks guys for all of the replies.

Benchmonster-I like your explaination about Halbert, that says it all right there in my book. Ok now my last question is, HOW do you make your CNS more efficient??? I know by training but is there a trick to the trade that I dont know about?

I personally believe the conjugate method it the best way to make yourself more efficient at utilizing all your available muscle fibers. I max out every single week on a different bench-like exercise. I PR almost every single week. It is very rare that I do not PR. I have not gained much size during this same time.

I think the combination of increasing my speed with dynamic work and constantly maxing out with different exercises, have made it possible for me to recruit more and more muscle fibers, and to fire them off in a more efficient manner.

I don't claim to have the knowledge of ZZulu, or certainly Arioch, and there are a ton of guys around who are stronger than I am, but there may be nobody anywhere ever that has increased a lift by the amount I have in one year, with no appreciable bodyweight increase.

I don't know what exact percentage of fast twitch to slow twitch in the pressing muscles, but I can guess I have an extremely high percentage of fast twitch for the following reasons:

I have a very good level of explosiveness, compared with my ability to do reps.

I have been able to outpunch (like a boxer) much bigger guys my whole life.

I have very good bar speed, even at maximal weights.

On the other hand, I don't have a good makeup in my squatting and deadlifting muscles. Once again we show that Arioch and I are almost complete opposites.

I don't say the above to blow smoke about myself, I just say this to show that although no expert, I do have some basis for the opinions I express on this board, particularly on this topic.

B.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Arioch,

Without dwelving into the shear intricacies that this topic exhibits I think it's a safe generalization that the CNS [in simple terms] contributes more to strength than hypertrophy although both are crucial.

If the guy is going to start eating less he can still make great strength gains using what I mentioned previously.

And I forgot to mention that low weights are better in terms of potentiating the CNS, but it seems common knowledge amongst WS followers.

"You cannot do so. "

What about cross sectional size VS Strength? Or is this not pertinent?

-Zulu

 

[solidj55]

Thanks guys for all of the great, educated replies. I didnt mean to start a big debate or argument lol. I really didnt know how in depth my question was until you guys started talking about it. I am just trying to lose some bodyfat/weight and wanted to know how to maximize CNS to help blunt the loss of strength due to muscle and bodyweight loss.

Benchmonster-I like some of westsides ideas and I do agree that they work, but for me personally it didnt seem to help my raw bench much. I have made much better gains through just benching with a periodization type routine. I dont know why though, maybe Im like powerlifterjay and just need to bench lol. Maybe like ZZuluZ said its the whole Synaptic Facilitation thing. I dont know, maybe I didnt do my speed work correctly or something.