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Vegetarians where art thou?

vestax03a

New member
About 2 months ago I became a vegetarian. I like it because i can finally feel comfortable eating 6 meals and not worring about calories a whole lot. However im starting to get tired of the same thing over and over again. I've done the veggie burgers, dogs, crumbled meat and tofu thing to death. So with all that said, Does anyone know some vegetarian or tofu recipies or know of a website with them?

Thanks in advance.
 
This is one of my fav's:
Heat dark sesame oil in a fry pan, then add firm tofu (cut into cubes) and freshly grated ginger & pepper. When tofu sticks to pan add some soy sauce (low sodium) and flip the tofu. Repeat untill all sides are browned. Serve on brown rice with asparagus.
 
Yeah, I like Gem's. When cutting, soft tofu scrambled with egg whites and salsa (do you eat eggs?), cottage cheese, cucumber, celery, sweet pea salad with fresh basil.

Or, if not cutting, just add plain soy protein powder to your normal legume curry or whatever.

MS probably has some good ideas, too.
 
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I'm not knockin you guys, but I've yet to meet a Healthy vegetarian who has less than 10% Bodyfat.

Post a Pic and prove me Wrong.

Most Veggie Heads have Flabby skin with Bags under their Eyes.

and Unless you are doing it for Religious purposes, It makes Zero sence. None. Zip. It's like me deciding that I'm never ever ever going to walk on the Sidewalk again because I'm afraid someone might step on my Shoes, so I instead decide to walk in the middle of tha Street.

Good Luck.

:bday:
 
You're wrong crumcake, but I ain't gonna post any pics.

And there many are other good reasons besides religious.
 
MS said:
You're wrong crumcake, but I ain't gonna post any pics.

And there many are other good reasons besides religious.

Why are so many vegitarians unhealthy looking (judging by my vegitarian friends). They always seem to have great energy, but they look like crap most of the time. What are these people usually doing wrong? I've always been curious to this.

Thanks

Gymrat123
 
A guy at my work

is a strict vegan, he is 36 and looks 26.

So something must be right, I eat meat like its going out of style and I'm 28 and look 35 :-)
 
Re: A guy at my work

nugg said:
is a strict vegan, he is 36 and looks 26.

So something must be right, I eat meat like its going out of style and I'm 28 and look 35 :-)


haha i'm not saying that all vegatarians are unhealthy, but i know alot who are. I just want to know, where some vegatarians go wrong in their diet?
 
MS, are you a strict Vegan? Or do you eat things like Fish and Eggs?

I honestly cannot UNDERSTAND, how not eating Fish like (salmon,trout,tuna) could EVER, in any way, shape or FORM, ever ever ever produce any negative effect on the body.

I guess the Healthiest diet would be a Veggie head, Who also eats Fish religiously.
 
Crum, you don't get the point, do you?

Health is one issue, but ever heard of ecological balance? Overfishing, over-grazing, soil erosion, destruction of land and water resources, "dead" seas, methane emissions, foot-and-mouth, BSE, chicken flu, scabies ... the list goes on and on and on, and fat, rich Americans and other Westerners sit there on their fat, smug asses remote-surfing channels for another pristine nature reserve to target for land-clearing to feed their warped sense of what "health" is.

And I don't care if your ass is only covered with 5% fat or whatever - it's still a FAT ass. Clear your head, dude, and wake up to the reality of the planet you're helping to destroy. You don't NEED meat, any more than a fish needs a f***ing bicycle!

As to the question of why so many vegs look unhealthy - excuse me - do you have statistics for this? - I know a shit-load of meat eaters who look a thousand times worse! It boils down to the same thing for anyone - is the diet balanced? Most people don't know shit about nutrition, so when they go veggie, they simply cut out all the protein (doh!), their diet becomes even more unbalanced and they start looking unhealthy.

Maybe you should go talk to Lisa Dorfman about healthy-looking vegetarians, though - she's competed in hundreds of triathlons, Ironman competitions, pentathlons, etc., and she looks half her age.
 
I still don't get it.

Please clarify what you're trying to say.

So um like umm .. umm.. eating fish is bad? umm oh...

:rolleyes:

I live by a Code, and that code is: If it didn't have a Parent, I won't eat it.

Actually I was going to join Green Peace, but now because you've spoken to me with such nonsensical jibba-jabba that is not only completely irrational but Rude as well...., that I have changed my mind and instead of joining Green Peace I am going on a Killing Spree and starting my own organization called Red Grease. Blood and Oil will be the foundation.

I shall hunt and destroy any living creature I see. I shall pollute the waters and set the Earth to flames. Instead of hugging trees, I will MUG trees.

BUT- I will continue saving the whales.....yes...saving them ALL FOR MY SELF....mmmmmm.......yummy...

And yes Steal Weever...this is ALL YOUR fault.
 
In all tribes on Earth, you can't find a friendlier - Group of People - who shun ALL evil, who treat ALL men equal - even though we see through - your wicked intentions, We gave you Land to experiment with your inventions! But you strive for Global Lynchin', Extinction - BUT it's you , yourself that will become extinct. YOU INHERITED THIS POWER TO THINK and build things, The free will to Love - not hate or kill things...and you when went astray, we sent Prophets to reveal things, and left scriptures behind to fulfill things. - BUT YOU STILL WANNA KILL THINGS! Rob and steal things! - So don't blame us when it's time to Fullfill things and KILL KINGS!

:confused: :confused: What's with this quote here?

Oh, well, whatever, guess that's Greenpeace's loss.

Sorry Crum - I've had this stupid pointless argument too many times - it pisses me off - go read a book or two about the fisheries industry.

"Red Grease" LOL

BTW - I'm not Japanese, and I don't eat whale.
 
An example

A Storm is Brewing Over Our Oceans
by Carl Safina and Mercédès Lee
Oceans were the birthplace of life on Earth, and they harbor a
bewildering array of life forms. The seas have long seemed endless
and infinitely bountiful. But overfishing and habitat destruction are
taking their toll, and marine depletions are causing ecological
upheaval, human conflict, and impoverishment.

Overfishing: Clear­cutting Our Oceans

The frontal assault that is most directly threatening marine life is
overfishing, the clear­cutting of our world's oceans. Technological
advances over the past few decades­­sonar, radar, satellite­assisted
fish finding, huge factory ships that spend months at sea, and nets
large enough to envelop a football field­­have changed the
fundamentals of fishing. Exacerbating these overwhelming assaults is
the pressure of more and more boats chasing fewer and fewer fish.
The result is that in many parts of the world, fish populations are at
historic lows.

Fish such as Atlantic salmon, Newfoundland and New England cod,
halibut, haddock, and flounder, have been driven to commercial
extinction. Their numbers are so low that it is no longer profitable (or
legal) to fish for these species in large parts of their range. And
migratory giants such as tunas, swordfish, marlin, and sharks are
facing a similar fate.

For instance, the adult population of Atlantic giant bluefin tuna off the
U.S. east coast has fallen more than 85 percent since the 1970s, but
because they are worth tens of thousands of dollars apiece for sushi in
Tokyo, catch quotas have recently been increased. The breeding
population of Atlantic swordfish is only about 20 percent of what it
was 15 years ago, and 90 percent of swordfish are now caught
before they reach breeding age. Many shark species in the U.S.
Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico have declined 70 to 80 percent in the last
decade due to excessive fishing pressure. The good news here is that
the U.S. government has proposed cutting shark fishing allocations in
half, and if implemented, this could halt their current decline.

Instead of living off the biological interest of wild populations, we
have mined­­rather than managed­­the capital. The emphasis­­in
thinking, in politics, and in fisheries law­­has been on economics over
biology. Ironically, overemphasis on short­term economics has
resulted in major economic and social losses to businesses and
taxpayers. Fishery depletions in the U.S. cost $8 billion annually and
300,000 jobs, according to the federal government.

In the twentieth century, ocean fish catches increased 25­fold,
although catch rates per ton of fishing vessel have been falling since
1970 as fleets and fishing power grew­­often swollen by subsidies­­at
rates greater than the ability of the fisheries to sustain them. In 1989,
the total world catch of wild fish from the seas peaked at a little over
80 million metric tons. It has generally remained static since then,
suggesting that for most areas of the world the limits of the seas have
been reached.

Bycatch: Casualties of Commerce

Virtually every kind of fishery unintentionally catches unwanted
creatures, known as bycatch. Each year, about one­quarter to
one­third of the world's total catch is simply discarded overboard,
dead or dying. Indiscriminate fishing techniques cause this waste; this
careless practice also pits fishery against fishery. Shrimp trawlers have
more bykill than any other type of fishing gear: For every pound of
shrimp kept, anywhere from a pound and a half to eight pounds of
sea creatures, many of which are juveniles of commercially important
species such as red snapper, are discarded dead. Shrimp trawls are
the largest source of mortality in adult sea turtles, and in the U.S.,
shrimpers must now have "turtle excluder devices" in their nets to
shunt turtles out. The highest amount of bycatch occurs in the
Northwest Pacific: Nine million metric tons of catch is discarded
annually.

Aside from problems of waste, bycatch can also deplete or endanger
wildlife populations, including fish, sea turtles, birds, and marine
mammals. For example, coastal gillnets threaten certain small dolphins
and seals with extinction, and longlines set for tunas and swordfish are
endangering several albatross species.

Fish Need Habitat, Too

Three­quarters of our recreational and commercial fish and shellfish
species depend on coastal ecosystems­­estuaries, marshes, and
rivers­­as breeding grounds and nurseries. Yet development
continues to degrade and destroy these essential habitats, threatening
both the health of marine fish populations and the future of fishing
communities. The federal government estimates that ongoing inshore
habitat losses cost the nation's fisheries more than $27 billion annually
in reduced catches.

Fishing practices can also alter fish habitat. In many regions of the
world's continental shelves, bottom­dwelling animals and plants (many
of which feed and shelter fish) have been seriously damaged by
commercial trawling. Divers throughout the tropical Indo­Pacific
region use cyanide to catch fish, but this also kills their coral habitats.
Even fish farms can destroy essential fish habitat for wild populations
because pens and artificial ponds often replace natural nursery
habitats and pollute local waters. Aquaculture facilities have
destroyed many mangrove tracts in Thailand, Ecuador, and other
areas. The submerged roots of these salt­tolerant trees provide
essential spawning and larval growth habitat for shrimp and fish. Their
loss not only hurts wildlife populations, it also contributes to
malnourishment of local people­­the shrimp and fish grown in the
tropics are almost all exported to developed countries, not used as
local food.

Ecological Effects

The effects of overfishing go beyond straightforward depletion.
Intensive removal of adults can drastically alter a population's age
structures and sex ratios and greatly reduce spawning potential. Adult
removal can even cause genetic changes, including miniaturization
through the disproportional survival and reproduction of small, early
maturing individuals.

In some parts of the world, overfishing is starving fish­eating birds and
marine mammals. The best­studied example is in Great Britain's
Shetland Islands, where extensive fishing for sandeels depleted this
prey species so severely that Arctic terns, puffins, and other birds that
prey on sandeels failed to breed for nearly a decade, beginning in the
early 1980s.

Selective depletion of marine organisms can cause profound changes
in ecosystem structure. One example can be seen on Georges Bank,
an area off the New England and Newfoundland coasts that has been
jointly overexploited by the U.S. and Canada. The area's
once­dominant cod, flounder, and haddock have been replaced by
skates and small sharks called dogfish, resulting in significantly
different patterns of energy flow and fears that the latter species could
suppress recovery of the overfished former­dominants. On the other
hand, the long­lived, slow­reproducing dogfish, formerly
unmarketable, are now already being rapidly depleted in a new,
unmanaged fishery.

Management Problems

Management of fisheries is fraught with problems. In many regions,
there are no data with which to manage. For example, increasing
demand for shark fins in China has driven many shark populations
around the world to low levels since the 1980s, but quantitative data
on the amount of fish caught, much less on population trends, are
spotty at best. Where data do exist, they have, for the most part,
been disregarded by managers and policymakers. The International
Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas, for instance, has
never since its inception in the 1960s been in compliance with its
charter obligation to manage for sustainable yields, despite having the
world's best data on regional population trends for tunas and
billfishes. It has made few management recommendations, has
allowed the severe depletion of western Atlantic bluefin tuna and
swordfish, has belatedly set catch limits that are too high to allow
recovery of these species, has allowed overfishing and regional
depletion of other tunas and billfishes, and still has no management or
recovery plans for any species.

A Change In the Wind?

Despite chronic problems, the sea breezes are beginning to shift. In
the U.S., more than 100 conservation, fishing, scientific, and diving
groups banded together to form the Marine Fish Conservation
Network, and at the end of 1995 they achieved a sweeping
Congressional overhaul in federal fisheries law that would have been
unthinkable only three or four years earlier. Implementation of these
major changes should fundamentally improve fisheries management
and marine resource abundance in U.S. waters.

In November 1994, mounting concern about the role that trade plays
in threatening shark species led to the unprecedented decision by
countries that are signatories to the Convention on International Trade
in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) to review
the biological and trade status of sharks globally. This is the first time
that a truly valuable commercial fishery has been accepted into the
CITES agenda, laying the necessary groundwork for regulating trade
in sharks and shark products throughout the world.

The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization once helped
shepherd the world into its current state of catch­as­catch­can frenzy
by encouraging and helping countries to expand their fishing fleets as a
way of increasing economic wealth and independence. Reports from
this world fish authority now ring with ominous warnings and
recommendations, saying that 70 percent of the world's populations
of marine fish, crustaceans, and mollusks are fully fished or have been
overexploited, and that conservation measures must be implemented
to reverse these trends. The United Nations imposed a global ban on
large­scale driftnetting in the early 1990s. And in 1995, the U.N.
passed a new treaty on high-seas fishing, which, if implemented in
coming years, may well be the most important action ever taken for
establishing a sustainable regime for the world's fisheries.

The end of a long era of mythical limitlessness and ideological
freedom in the seas is upon us. Does this mark the beginning of better
stewardship and recovery?

Carl Safina is senior ecologist at the National Audubon Society,
and the director of its Living Oceans Program. Mercédès Lee has
been a writer and science editor for the National Audubon
Society for the last 10 years. She is currently outreach
coordinator for Audubon's Living Oceans Program.

(ZooGoer 26(2) 1997. Copyright 1997 Friends of the National
Zoo. All rights reserved.)
 
take it easy bros. Steel i think you made a great point about how when some switch to vegatrain, they don't get enough protein in their diets, and perhaps that is what leads to their unhealthy look.

I also know a thing or two about natural resourses, and much of what you say is true, but it boils down to your own ethical beliefs. Just because you're an ecocentric and the rest of us are more anthropesentric, it doesn't give you the right to call others and their beliefs down.

I think everyone should save their ethical and moral beliefs to themselves, and save us all alot of reading....


Gymrat123
 
Heh heh. Thanks Gymrat.

Crum - I'm sorry - I don't want to come across as rude - I'm usually a very reasonable person. However, I've been veggie more than half my life, and in that time I've had to deal with being attacked on so many levels and in so many ways for it, it's not funny, so I get riled up. The majority of flesh-eaters feel it is their god-given right to attack and ridicule one the moment the word vegetarian is mentioned. Vegetarians are, as a result, naturally touchy about the subject.

The reason I mentioned so many apparently unrelated ecological problems is that, ultimately, even though they appear to be completely separate issues, they're all a result of the same MIND-SET.

But, in the spirit of gymrat's post, let's not go there ... or we'll never get away...

:kiss:
 
hahah I've taken many classes regarding environmental degradation bro, and I know"the mind-set" This thread could go on for ever discussing the various issues.

Gymrat123
 
Whatever. I agree that eating fish is no better, amd in many ways worse, than eating cattle raised for food. There are far too many people eating fish in the world to sustain this practice, and unlike eating livestock, no one is replacing the fish. But that's all separate, and IMHO some of the non-religious aspects of not eating meat. Steel outlined some other good reasonons as well.

But my point was that you do not need to eat meat to be a healthy person. If you've seen unhealthy looking vegoes then all I can say is thery're not eating right. I've lived with people like that, and what they eat is disgusting to me. I also know that vegos can get very lean and muscular if they choose to, and have the know-how and genetics, just like any other bodubuilder.

Anyway, my favorite protein based vego food is called miengin, seitan, or gluten (and other names as well). Otherwise I just make a tasty veggie and rice/bean/lentil/potato dish and slug down some soy protein with it.
 
This thread is Hopeless, but I truely, from the bottom of my Heart, wish you guys tha best, and hope you live a long and fullfilling life.

Love Always,

Crumcake.
 
Why do you think this thread is hopeless??? Because there is a few people out there that dont agree with ya???

The original poster merely wanted some recipes. YOU'RE the one who brought in all this unneccessary and off-topic debate about the healthfulness or otherwise of a vego diet. This is a diet discussion board, so we should not make people like vestax03a feel unwelcome by denegrating their dietary choices, but rather should help them design the best diet possible within their dietary constraints.

vestax03a, if you're still around, it would be helpful to know your goals and what type of vegetarian you are. Are you trying to lose fat at the moment, or gain muscle. Do you eat eggs, dairy, fish etc...? How long have you been weight training?

Crumcake, I won't post pics of myself or clients for various reasons (and that's NOT because we're not ripped or muscular). But you can check out http://www.cbass.com/personal.htm

http://www.cbass.com/pictoral.htm#Training

He admits to eating "small amounts of meat and fish" over the last 30 years.

And then there is the infamous Bill Pearl http://ksteveh.tripod.com/pearl.html
from his website "He won the professional Mr. Universe title in 1971, at the age of 41, without the use of steroids and as a vegetarian, and is recognized as one of the all-time greats of bodybuilding. Bill's diet is lacto-ovo vegetarian, which means he eats eggs and dairy products.

He describes his experiences with the conversion to vegetarianism. "With each succeeding year the diet (lacto-ovo vegetarian), I've felt better. I'm more healthy, I can train with more energy, and I'm not as much of a "hard guy" as I used to be. I've become more concerned with my fellow man and the other inhabitants I share the planet with. …I have now been vegetarian for almost 20 years. We have no fish, fowl, or red meat in our diet. Yet I can still carry the same amount of muscle as I did in winning my four Mr. Universe titles. People can't believe it. They think that to have big muscles you have to eat meat - it's a persistent and recurring myth. But take it from me, there's nothing magic about eating meat that's going to make you a champion bodybuilder. Anything you can find in a piece of meat, you can find in other foods as well."

Of course, maybe he's a pig-faced liar and sneaks off to McD's at midnight (this is the other comment ignorant meat heads often make when they don't believe it's possible to be a healthy vego bodybuilder).
 
"vestax03a, if you're still around, it would be helpful to know your goals and what type of vegetarian you are. Are you trying to lose fat at the moment, or gain muscle. Do you eat eggs, dairy, fish etc...? How long have you been weight training?"

My main goal is to lose fat. When i started my diet i was a little over 300 pounds at 5'5, it wasn't looking very nice. Also it was very hard to find size 48 jeans.

I've been dieting since june, turned vegetarian in november. At first i followed a very strict diet (around 850 calories a day) and did light excersie. I made some progress but it wasnt enough, so in november i decided to become a vegetarian.

I dont eat eggs, dair or fish. mostly beans (black,pinto, and red) salads, vegetables and veggie burger patties and tofu dogs.

As of saturday im down to a 34 but i still have a problem. I have ALOT of loose skin. It looks very nasty. Mostly on my chest, stomach, thighs and back. I stopped doing 90 minutes of cardio and started lifting weights for 90 minutes and doing 15 on a stationary bike or running on a treadmill. starting to see some improvement but its still not enough...any tips?
 
vestax03a said:
...any tips?

Yes, Eat meat.

High Protein, Low-Mod Carb, Mod healthy Fats, Do that for 5 months. And you will be a New person.

Keep at with this Vegetarian stuff and see how far you'll get... :rolleyes:

Good Luck.

Love Always,

Crum:bday:
 
In response to "Yes, Eat meat. ", all I can say is religions come in all shapes and sizes, and vegetarian bashing is just one type of religious fervour IMHO, and is done as a reflex of people who feel their carniverous religion being threatened. It is not relevant to this board anymore than me coming on here and bashing ketogenic/high meat diets as "unhealthy" or "environmentally selfish" or whatever. I can just as well (and have many times) design a meat-based diet for an Atkin'ser/CKD as I can a vego even though I don't eat meat. Is it asking too much of the other members of this board to be tolerant??

On another current thread you guys (Crum et al) are flaming some nutritionist for being closed-minded and not open to other ideas than the ones she's set her mind on. Looks like the kettle calling the coal black.

vestax03a, my advice is to eat more calories, but fewer carbs. Increase your protein intake. You're on the right track by substituting weights for some of your cardio. As for the excess skin, there's not a lot I know of that can help that. With time (if you keep the weight off), it will tighten some, but obese people's skin sometimes never returns to normal tightness after they lose a lot of weight. It's a small price to pay for the general improvement in your health and well being. It can be surgically removed, but you shouldn't consider this until your weight has been stable for at least a year. The meals/recipes is a personal thing. I like a lot of ethnic spices (mexican/indian/asian etc...) in my meals, and these can be low fat AND low sodium but still taste good. In general, if you look at the meal plans on some of those links I posted, you'll see that the dieting foods are kept simple, basic and not highly seasoned. This is a good idea from several perspectives, including appetite control (if the food tastes too good it's tempting to eat too much for instance).

It might help if you posted what you're currently eating.
 
MS said:
In response to "Yes, Eat meat. ", all I can say is religions come in all shapes and sizes, and vegetarian bashing is just one type of religious fervour IMHO, and is done as a reflex of people who feel their carniverous religion being threatened. It is not relevant to this board anymore than me coming on here and bashing ketogenic/high meat diets as "unhealthy" or "environmentally selfish" or whatever. I can just as well (and have many times) design a meat-based diet for an Atkin'ser/CKD as I can a vego even though I don't eat meat. Is it asking too much of the other members of this board to be tolerant??

On another current thread you guys (Crum et al) are flaming some nutritionist for being closed-minded and not open to other ideas than the ones she's set her mind on. Looks like the kettle calling the coal black.


Bwaahahahaa haaa. Take THAT! (Just kidding, OK!)

I'm sorry ... was I bashing? This is what I love about you MS - so balanced. I, unfortunately, tend to have knee-jerk reactions to my personal lifestyle choices being unnessarily ridiculed.

vestax03a - sorry to invade your thread so belligerently - Crum said he didn't understand, so I tried to explain, but it's hard to explain when you're irritated. Anyway, all I can say is, if MS is giving you advice, you're one lucky guy, and I'd follow it to the letter.

CrumCookie - would you like to step outside? :D
 
There is no reason for this to turn into a brawl. Vesta has made a choice and will stick with it as long as it fits into his/her lifestyle and is working. I would hope that if vesta gets to a stage where his/her current lifestyle isn't working that they will re-evaluate based on knowledge and sound advice rather than anecdote and prejudice. A vego diet, quite simply, doesn't suit everbody's lifestyle or temperament. Same with a meat based diet. I'm pretty sure vesta didn't get to 300lbs on whole grains and fresh veggies alone!!! I'll bet there was some meat (and junky carbs and 'bad' fats) in there, along with not enough physical activity for whatever reason. There is no one cause of obesity, so there will never be one soution (such as eat more meat). Obesity is a complex disease of modern society and treatment needs to be approached as a healthy and sustainable lifestyle change that is more than just adding meat and dropping carbs and calories. Loose skin is a bummer though.......
 
vestax03a said:
About 2 months ago I became a vegetarian. I like it because i can finally feel comfortable eating 6 meals and not worring about calories a whole lot. However im starting to get tired of the same thing over and over again. I've done the veggie burgers, dogs, crumbled meat and tofu thing to death. So with all that said, Does anyone know some vegetarian or tofu recipies or know of a website with them?

Thanks in advance.

You are making one of the most common mistakes that many people make - It appears that you are trying to substitute meat. You seem to be cooking meat-type meals with meat substitutes instead of vegetarian meals.

My mother used to do this to me when I first became a Veggie, i.e. buying me vegetarian sausages, etc. She didn't seem to understand that I had no interest in eating something that looked and tasted like meat.

Go and buy a vegetarian cookbook and make vegetarian food. Entire civilisations such as that of the Indian subcontinent have their diets based on vegetarian food.

Contrary to common perceptions, vegetarian food is usually FAR more diverse and interesting than frequently monotonous meat based meals.

Best of luck.
 
vestax03a said:
About 2 months ago I became a vegetarian. I like it because i can finally feel comfortable eating 6 meals and not worring about calories a whole lot. However im starting to get tired of the same thing over and over again. I've done the veggie burgers, dogs, crumbled meat and tofu thing to death. So with all that said, Does anyone know some vegetarian or tofu recipies or know of a website with them?

Thanks in advance.

humans are OMNIVORES meaning that we eat plant and animal.
good luck building muscle or even maintaining what muscle you have right now because i dont' care how you mix your beans and brown rice, your tofu and other dairy products, you cannot progress physical strenght and muscle building without meat and/or FISH.
 
Re: Re: Vegetarians where art thou?

leancuisine said:


humans are OMNIVORES meaning that we eat plant and animal.
good luck building muscle or even maintaining what muscle you have right now because i dont' care how you mix your beans and brown rice, your tofu and other dairy products, you cannot progress physical strenght and muscle building without meat and/or FISH.

Please explain then how I have gained 20kgs of muscle on a vegetarian diet.
 
Re: Re: Vegetarians where art thou?

leancuisine said:


humans are OMNIVORES meaning that we eat plant and animal.
good luck building muscle or even maintaining what muscle you have right now because i dont' care how you mix your beans and brown rice, your tofu and other dairy products, you cannot progress physical strenght and muscle building without meat and/or FISH.

That's bs, I don't even eat dairy, pure plant proteins and, over the past month, since I've started to do things properly I've packed on alot of muscle for the time frame, I've had 2 positive comments on my body from people I know... and in regards to an earlier post, I've seen lots of healthy vegetarian/vegans with low bf.. for example Cloud-X on this board is vegan and has about 5% bf, and very healthy.
 
HANZNZ.......

you gained 20kg of pure muscle you say.
in how long, 20 years?
you're trippin!


VARIATIONS.......

you probably just lost some weight and are seeing your defined body a little better thus the 'illusionary' more lean physique.
surely you did not pack on more muscle by changing your diet to a vegeterian one.
amino acids people!!!!!!!!! EFA's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do you know what they are, how they work, and if the answer is yes than would you please take the time to explain how you can possibly have 4-5 meals a day each consisting of all EFA's.

thank you.
 
...

oh I didn't change, I've been a vegetarian for most of my life, and a vegan for the past while.. I've actually made gains, verified by greater measurements... I try to have a large variety of different types of plant proteins and I get about 1g of protein per pound of body weight... I also take flax oil or ground flax seeds daily for some of my EFA's
 
Leancuisine is correct that humans are omnivores and we're built to eat vegetables and meat. The reason we have increased our life spans so drastically is due to the diversity of our diet, which includes meat.

I eat meat(mostly chicken and fish), and I'm beginning to slowly quit eating all meat except fish for mostly ethical reasons.

Regarding potential growth for a veggie, one of my lifting buddies is a hardcore veggie. He has made incredible gains in size and strength over the last couple years with no meat in his diet. I believe that if he ate meat he would progress further, but the negligable amount of difference wouldn't be worth sacrificing his personal(ethical, health) reasons for choosing his diet.

You can give strong arguments for either side. What it comes down to is simply respecting the other person's choice. Anyway, who gives a shit what other people eat.
 
It has nothing to do with what we 'evolved' to eat. The FACT is that a human can make awesome muscle gains on a purely vegan diet if she knows her shit and eats right, rests and trains. Whether you choose to meet you muscle gains by eating animal products and/or meat is a personal choice and has nothing to do with bodybuilding. I have been a vegan for over 20 years and have more natural muscle than just about any chick I know. I'm not bragging, just stating the facts.

I added meat/animal products to my diet over the last year because everyone said "I'll bet you'd make even better gains with meat in your diet". Guess what.....all I gained was fat! Now the meat is out again and I'm leaning out once more.
 
MS said:
It has nothing to do with what we 'evolved' to eat. The FACT is that a human can make awesome muscle gains on a purely vegan diet if she knows her shit and eats right, rests and trains.

you can surely make gains with any diet, but lets examine this analogy for a second:

lets take 2 cars traveling at different speed to the same location.

car 1 drives at 45 mph
car 2 drives at 60 mph

surely, both cars will eventually reach their destination, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that car 2 will get there quicker.

car 1 is a vegetrian

car 2 is an omnivore

an exception must be made to those vegeterians who eat fish as fish is as good (if not better) than meat.
 
Leacuisine, what evidence do you have that a 'vegetarian car' if tuned properly and given good quality vego fuel is always the slower car? As Thaibox has pointed out, it should be no skin of your back if someone wants to eat vego and I see no reason to try to prejudice their choice with YOUR prejudices. I was an omnivore and ate a LOT of meat fot the first 18 years of my life. I also was a, muscleless chick. I didn't make any noticeable muscle gains at all until I learned how to eat a high quality vegetarian diet. I have had two male partners experience the same thing after living with me and eating as I do.....much better LEAN mass gains. So it looks like it's my prejudice against yours. Why not call it a tie instead of slagging off other peoples dietary choices without any evidence? Really, you should be glad that some of us are willing to forgo meat, since the planet can't support 6 billion people all eating a high protein diet based on animal products!
 
leancuisine said:
HANZNZ.......

you gained 20kg of pure muscle you say.
in how long, 20 years?
you're trippin!


VARIATIONS.......

you probably just lost some weight and are seeing your defined body a little better thus the 'illusionary' more lean physique.
surely you did not pack on more muscle by changing your diet to a vegeterian one.
amino acids people!!!!!!!!! EFA's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do you know what they are, how they work, and if the answer is yes than would you please take the time to explain how you can possibly have 4-5 meals a day each consisting of all EFA's.

thank you.

I have gained that 20kgs since I became a vegetarian six years ago.

My weight has increased from 80 kgs to 100kgs. My lean body mass has increased 20 kgs and my body fat has fluctuated during periods of dieting and bulking.

Being a 100kg mass monster is more than an "illusion" created by body definition, LOL!

Whether you eat soy or animal protein your body won't know the difference.
 
EFAs are essential fatty acids. These are essential nutrients for your body. You can obtain these from fish or nuts. The easiest way is to take flax seed and safflower oils. These will also help to protect your heart from all the animal fats your are ingesting in your meat eating diet :)

If you wish to have EFAs with every meal (unnecessary) then you could swallow a teaspoon of these oils with each meal. BVe sure not to heat these oils though. They need to be kept cold or they lose their biological value.

leancuisine said:
MS said:
It has nothing to do with what we 'evolved' to eat. The FACT is that a human can make awesome muscle gains on a purely vegan diet if she knows her shit and eats right, rests and trains.

you can surely make gains with any diet, but lets examine this analogy for a second:

lets take 2 cars traveling at different speed to the same location.

car 1 drives at 45 mph
car 2 drives at 60 mph

surely, both cars will eventually reach their destination, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that car 2 will get there quicker.

car 1 is a vegetrian

car 2 is an omnivore

an exception must be made to those vegeterians who eat fish as fish is as good (if not better) than meat.

Incorrect. You can gain just as fast on a vegan diet as you will on a meat eating diet.

Sadly I have had this debate with meat eaters time and again. There is a culturally ingrained prejudice that plants can never be as good a source of protein as animals. You'll find most people overwhelmingly agree with your prejudice, despite what the scientific facts are.

Trying to debate this with many people is like debating with a Christian fundamentalist - you may as well save your breath.
 
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MS....

i just find it hard to believe how a vegeterian diet can compare to a meat diet if the goal is to build muscle. just CANT see it!
sorry.
 
Fair enough leancuisine. As HansNZ pointed out, yours is an extremely common point of view, especially amongst bodybuilders. But in my experience, it's not the protein source that makes or breaks a BB......there are millions of Americans out there who are omnivorous and have high meat intakes. They are hardly recommendations for this type of diet though since they are obese and lazy slobs with no knwoledge of decent nutrition. The same applies to the majority of vegetarians I have known (skinny, sickly, weak salad eaters), and this was shown quite clearly in a study published by Campbell et al in 1999 where they put some old male omnivores on a weight training program for 12 weeks, and had half of them eliminate meat from their diet. Without any nutritional counselling the poor old guys on the meat free diet had a dramatic drop in protein intake and did not get nearly as good muscle growth as the guys that continued eating meat. However just last year this same group of researchers did the exact same experiment but this time they controlled for protein intake. They told both groups how and what to eat to ensure that everyone got adequate protein and it should be no surprise that both groups but on equally decent amounts of muscle. Admittedly these were old guys, and it wasn't a totally vegan diet they put them on, but it certainly illustrates that AN EDUCATED VEGETARIAN bodybuilder, just like an EDUCATED OMNIVOROUS bodybuilder, can make equally good gains. I also would point out that the majority of 'omnivores' I see weight training at the gym do not make any decent gains in spite of the inclusion of meat in their diets. It's really not about the source of the protein, it's about adequate protein, protein and carb timing (and all the other macro and micronutients), adequate calories, training, rest etc....

Now I would relate to you better if you just said "I hate eating nothing but chick peas, lentils and brown rice with soy protein, and could not personally stick to a meat free diet well enough to grow because I don't like those foods, but I love meat". This is more honest than saying that a plant based diet is always inadequate compared to an omnivorous diet.

Effect of protein source on resistive-training-induced changes in body composition and muscle size in older men.

Haub MD, Wells AM, Tarnopolsky MA, Campbell WW.

Department of Human Nutrition, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 66506, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Aging is associated with reductions in muscle mass and strength, but nutrition and exercise interventions can delay this progression and enhance the quality of life. OBJECTIVE: We examined whether the predominant source of protein consumed by older men influenced measures of muscle size and strength, body composition, resting energy expenditure, and skeletal muscle creatine concentrations in response to 12 wk of resistive training. DESIGN: After consuming a lactoovovegetarian (LOV) diet for 2 wk, 21 men aged 65 +/- 5 y were randomly assigned to either consume a beef-containing (BC) diet (n = 10) or to continue the LOV diet (n = 11) throughout resistive training. The BC diet included 0.6 g protein per kg per day from beef and the LOV diet included 0.6 g proteinper kg per day from textured vegetable protein (soy) sources. The remaining protein in the diets came from self-selected LOV sources. RESULTS: The mean total protein intake for both groups ranged from 1.03 to 1.17 grams per kg per day during the intervention. Men in both groups had improvements (14-38%) in maximal dynamic strength of all the muscle groups trained with no significant difference between groups. With resistive training, cross- sectional muscle area of the vastus lateralis increased in both groups with no significant difference between groups. Body composition, resting energy expenditure, and concentrations of muscle creatine, phosphocreatine, and total creatine did not differ significantly between groups or change over time. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that increases in muscle strength and size were not influenced by the predominant source of protein consumed by older men with adequate total protein intake.
 
source

personally, I think the protein source does matter, and I believe plant proteins are MORE efficient due to the fact that they are a cleaner form (in my opinion) you can see how it works...

MEAT EATER WAY---

SUN/WATER -> PLANTS -> ANIMAL -> HUMAN

or

SUN/WATER -> PLANTS -> ANIMAL -> ANIMAL(OR MORE) -> HUMAN

now Vegan way --

SUN/WATER -> PLANTS -> HUMAN

eliminate steps and get to a better source...

me and another guy about my size, who eats meat started working out at about the same time, I have put on more muscle then him since we started, although I do realize that we have different training plans and eat at different times, so perhaps I'm just doing a better job then him there.. since I know I'll get flamed for that ;x .. It's just my personal beliefs, and it's working very well for me.. so I will not change because people tell me I should eat meat/dairy/fish to put on mass.. as long as it is working well for me.. I am very happy.
 
first of all...

i would like to apologize as i believe i may have been slightly outta line with some of my remarks on this thread, but its only because i want you guys to maximize your potentials and with a vegeterian diet i don't think you are maximizing your potentials. i'm not flaming anybody...just wanna help.

next...

i believe vegeterians CAN build just as much muscle as a meat eater. but it WILL TAKE LONGER! the reason is quite simple. its much harder to consume all the essential amino acids that the body need to build muscle through vegeterian sources. now in understand that you have tofu, legumes, dairy, soya, and whatever other goodies, but its so much harder to get all of your efa's that way. you have to be super strict on your diet every day and make sure you get those efa's through different food combinations. why do that when you can just simplify it all with a can of tuna or a lean breast of chicken.

remember that when i'm only refering to vegeterians who do not eat fish.

last but not least....

i would like for a vet veggie to reply with an example of you daily eating routine. protein sources only that is.

my steak is almost ready.....rock hard brothers and sisters.
 
There is NO WAY that amino acids are limiting on a veggie diet provided total protein intake is adequate. That is really the whole point (omnivore or not) of getting plenty of protein when bodybuilding....to ensure enough essential aminos for muscle growth.

By "efa's" do you mean essential fatty acids??? Surely not....perhaps you are referring to essential amino acids?

As for being super strict and getting a set amount of aminos every day, I respectfully disagree, being a founding member of the protein cycling club. My body is VERY efficient at using the protein it gets because I don't bombard it with very high protein intakes 24/7/365. It is very well recognised that chronic high protein diets merely upregulate protein oxidizing enzymes which puts the dieter into a state of ever increasing need for protein. And it's not at all hard to get lots of protein on my high protein days. Yesterday included 2 cups chick peas, 30g soy protein, 150g Tempeh, ~100g gluten, and minor protein amounts from brazil nuts, oats and veggies (which was 2 cups cooked swiss chard, 2 carrots, 1 large red bell pepper and 2 zucchinis). This totals approx 1950 cals, 125g protein, 220g low GI carbs, 70g fat (28g of polyunsats including a healthy amount of omega-3s), 25g fiber,over 100% of the RDA of calcium, over 200% of the RDA of iron, 5g of potassium (and a potassium:sodium ratio of 3:1), over 200% RDA of phosphorus, 1000% RDA of vitamin A, over 200% RDA of vitamins C and thiamine, over 100% RDA of riboflavin and niacin. In other words I get absolutely everything my body needs to be 100% healthy, lean and muscular without even taking a multivitamin. I don't know many 'omnivores' that can claim the same high level of nutrition! But hey, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I just want to dispel these old myths that a vego diet has to be inferior to an omnivorous one. Add in eggs and dairy to your diet and it's even more of a no-brainer to get enough protein and calories (though easier to overeat and gain fat). I like to eat food. I like to eat large servings of tasty 'ethnic' food such as indian curries, mexican beans and rice dishes, etc.....so this diet suits me to a T.
 
MS....

i made a mistake. i meant essential amino acids and not efa's.

if you would post your age/height/weight/bodyfat i'd be better able to put in in perpective.

after all, you may be a skinny frawny no muscle toothpick.
 
I'm 44 years old, 5'5" female, offseason around 160lbs, 16-18%bf. Some competition lean photos can be seen by clicking on my 'gallery' button where I am around 130-135lbs and 7-8%bf. Before I became a vegan (at the age of 18) I was same height and bodyfat but only 106lbs.......
 
Props for your ability to clearly justify your dietary choices MS. While I will never follow a vegetarian diet, I sympathize with those who do. The problem is, and you must agree, most vegetarians/vegas have nowhere near your nutritional background and as a result end up forming worse physiques. My roommate is a prime example. Since he turned vegan, he will eat most anything certified organic... before this diet, he would make sure to get adequate protein intake and low gi carbs. He now snacks all day on fructose laden snacks as does most of the undereducated vegan community...
 
I definitely agree ZKaudio. Most vegos are cult idiots who are more interested in their ideologies than in good nutrition and a healthy bodybuilding lifestyle. They REALLY annoy me almost as much as meatheads!
 
Oh dear...This is always a heated debate when it doesn't even really need to be.

FACT:
A non-vegetarian who eats like shit will also look like shit.

FACT:
A non-vegetarian who eats right will look better and be healthier.

FACT:
A vegetarian who eats like shit will probably look like shit

FACT:
A vegetarian who eat good and KNOWS HOW to incorporate the right choices (protein) will look as good as a meat eater....

FACT:
You have to discard most vegetarians on the street because most have no clue on how to eat. This is also the case with meat eaters that don't know how to eat. It goes both ways.

FACT:
Those that have seen MS' pictures know she can probably blow 90% of the members off this board. She has probably the greatest contest shape body from any NATURAL female (and probably male) that I have EVER seen. I'm not even exaggerrating this at all...she is awesome.

I used to be sort of anti-vegetarian as well, but what it really comes down to is making smart food choices that incoporate a balance of macro/micro-nutrients and training. Then, it is just a matter of whether you are eating more calories than you use. Too bad more vegetarians don't have the knowledge like MS because they really give it a bad image. I guess this is the same with meat eaters as well......my parents come to mind.

This whole non-vegetarian vs. vegetarian debate is worthless when it comes to which is "BEST!"

BMJ
 
MS...

based on the pictures in your gallery, you are indeed very fit and extremely muscular for a female. the knowledge you have regarding proper vegeterian nutrition far exceeds most vegeterians nutrition. so you see, as a vegeterian one must really really know what to eat otherwise the likelihood to be protein defecient is greater, and thus the common misconception that vegeterians cant get the results of meat eaters.
you gotta admit though that it's much easier to consume the necessary amounts of proteins for serious muscle building with a meat eating diet.
 
Hee Hee Ha Ha-Leancusine you really don't have a clue do you????

MS has done more to educate people on all things diet than any other individual I can think of. Perhaps you can learn too.

Just had to butt in with that-valerie
 
MS-Thanks for posting your pics. Although I'm not platnium (darn ) I have been curious. You looked great.-valerie
 
VALERIE,

you flame me again and i'll send you fat ass back to burger king where you belong.

you say i dont have a clue uh?
the name says it all.
LEANCUISINE

you best recognize::finger:
 
SteelWeaver said:
Crum, you don't get the point, do you?

Health is one issue, but ever heard of ecological balance? Overfishing, over-grazing, soil erosion, destruction of land and water resources, "dead" seas, methane emissions, foot-and-mouth, BSE, chicken flu, scabies ... the list goes on and on and on, and fat, rich Americans and other Westerners sit there on their fat, smug asses remote-surfing channels for another pristine nature reserve to target for land-clearing to feed their warped sense of what "health" is.

And I don't care if your ass is only covered with 5% fat or whatever - it's still a FAT ass. Clear your head, dude, and wake up to the reality of the planet you're helping to destroy. You don't NEED meat, any more than a fish needs a f***ing bicycle!

As to the question of why so many vegs look unhealthy - excuse me - do you have statistics for this? - I know a shit-load of meat eaters who look a thousand times worse! It boils down to the same thing for anyone - is the diet balanced? Most people don't know shit about nutrition, so when they go veggie, they simply cut out all the protein (doh!), their diet becomes even more unbalanced and they start looking unhealthy.

Maybe you should go talk to Lisa Dorfman about healthy-looking vegetarians, though - she's competed in hundreds of triathlons, Ironman competitions, pentathlons, etc., and she looks half her age.

It's just a suggestion, but I think there's something wrong with the food you guys eat up there in the northern hemisphere. A friend of mine went to live in Germany for five years. This guy is a typical ectomorph - the sort you would never think could get fat.

After living in Germany for three years he had put on so much weight that he became a vegetarian. Once he did this he returned to his original weight again. He's living back here in New Zealand and has resumed eating meat. He hasn't gained any extra fat.

He said the meat in Europe tastes strange - quite unpleasant in his opinion. I know that Americans mess even more with their livestock than Europeans do - far more hormones, antibiotics, unnatural feed, etc.

I know people living in Europe/America who have tried to buy meat from New Zealand/argentina, etc. which is grown more naturally - but it is so expensive because of the high tariffs Americans and Europeans put on it.

Here in New Zealand people have unhealthy diets and increasing waist lines too, but we have nothing like the levels of extreme obesity that you see among Americans. Whenever I travel I am struck by how FAT Americans are.

From this and other anecdotal experience, I think your industrialised farming (including genetic modification in the USA), may have something to do with the weight problems in your parts of the world.
 
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hormone supplemented cattle meat has the same nutritional breakdown as natural cows. Your argument is invalid. I think it's more the american motto, more is better, that hurts most of our population... why eat a small fry when u can supersize it for 40 cents?-go usa
 
ZKaudio said:
hormone supplemented cattle meat has the same nutritional breakdown as natural cows. Your argument is invalid. I think it's more the american motto, more is better, that hurts most of our population... why eat a small fry when u can supersize it for 40 cents?-go usa

Correction: it is not an argument, it is a suggestion based on purely anecdotal observations. I haven't investigated the science in this area.

As an argument it would not be generally invalid, it would only be invalid SCIENTIFICALLY. Scientific "facts" are only as good as the science of the time. It will be interesting to see what the "facts" are on this in another 50 years.

I've inserted the words "It's just a suggestion" for you at the beginning of my previous post :)
 
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There are valid arguements in both directions. Almost ALL New Zealand/Argentine meat is both grass fed and free range. Almost ALL American meat is corn/grain fed and spends a lot of their life inactive in feed lots. This affects both the total fat content as well as the saturated fat content dramatically, and American meat is generally very poor in Omega 3 fats compared to NZ/Argentine. American beef is also generally 'fattened up' in it's last few weeks with estrogens. This does not happen down south. But ZKaudio is also correct, and don't kid yourself that NZ isn't heading for an obesity crisis too, for the same reasons as Americans. Excess calories and reduced activity is the major culprit.

leancuisine, what's in a name? Your turn to post some pics. Not that it really matters. With proper nutritional counselling you could achieve a nice body even without the meat, so I'm not sure what your point is. Knowledge is only as good as what you use it to accomplish, and at least I am able to assist folks with diet designs based on their preferences and lifestyle choices without prejudice to my own beliefs. I can counsel someone on a meat based keto diet, and isocalorice diet, or strict vegetarian diet and have them get equally good results. This is not a flame, just a heads up that I am also on this diet board to help people with their diet goals, and anyone that's trying to be helpful (including yourself) does not deserve to be flamed, but does deserve to be challenged in an open debate/discussion. That applies to both of us, and I for one think these threads are good for everyone as long as they DON'T lead to flame wars.
 
hey im somewhat of a vegetarian myself and im pretty healthy :)

i like meat but i rarely ever eat any because it is toooooo expensive


i prefer cheap protien powders. i can get 25 grams of protien for about 30 cents a serving! you cant beat that!
 
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