TWO WEEK CYCLES are the safest!

[Realgains]

Realgains:You're dead-on in some respects but a bit off on others.

You're absolutelly right about estrogen. There is an overconcern with it and everybody is willin got start popping anti-e's after one dianabol. Estrogen has many advantages and suppressing it should only be necessary if excessive aromatization occurs -- which would not be the case is dosages are kept reasonable.

(Incidentally, I know people have a hard time comprehending that and will continue to go about doing things the wrong way, but there's little I can do about it).

I find some contradiction in your statements however. Yes, test is king, and ALL steroids are based on the test molecule (essentially).

Anadrol will not aromatize to estrogen but it's high is progesterone (as is Deca) which can lead to puffy nips. ( nonestrogenic gyno.)

You compare Winstrol with Anadrol but the two are as different as can be. Since Winstrol with increase DHT, it may at as an anti-estrogen. It also as anti progesterone effects and is non bloating whereas Anadrol is very progesterongenic and very bloating. And the fact that Anadrol is considered a strong drug is absolutely wrong. It's a weak drug -- which is why it's made in a 50 mg tablet. Sure, it blows you up (water weight fron the progesterone) but you piss twice and lose 25 pounds. An equal amount of d-bol is much more powerful.

As far as steroids such as Winny (as well as Proviron) binding to AR, it's an advantage because DHT can not be converted to estogen. But in the case of Deca, there's no such advantage.

As far as Tren goes --never took it -- never will -- would never recommend it.

Nelson..........I can't believe I didn't catch myself....Yes you are correct Anadrol is NOT estrogenic and in fact is progestogenic and as such can cause similar sides to the aromatizing roids, especially bloat.

I wouldn't say that anadrol is weak bro even though it takes a lot more mg's to be effective than say d-bol. It is a very powerful hormone and 150 per day will really be effective. It is a very powerful mass builder and in fact many consider it to be the single best roid in this regard. Part of its power comes from the fact that it is a very powerful anadrogen.

Nelson winstrol does not increase DHT. It remains as winstrol at the scalp.

About the tren and the kidney thing.
Nelson that is a myth started by the late Dan Ducaine and has no merrit at all. If it was true then we would have lots of young men in the hospital with acute kidney issues especaially in small town rural mid western USA since this is often the only steroid readily available.
I have always followed myself with blood work while "on" roids and I have never ever had any elevation in BUN or creatinine( kidney indicators) and I have done 100mg of tren per day for 10 weeks at a time.
I encourage you to try tren and get blood work done at week 4 or so.

RG

 

[Realgains]

so are you advocating 3 steroids for this this cycle or 2? you say only 2 are needed but others in converstion and you in the quote above say 3. I'm pretty sure you only mentioned 3 because you're freakin 5'10" 235 and not 5'8" 170 like myself, but i just want to clear this up so i don't get mixed up.

Total mg's used is the most important factor but not the only one. Certain hormones work better if they are stacked together.
That said.... you could get good results from test alone but that is the only hormone that I would use alone for building mass. It is the only one that has good class one and class two activity.
Okay... you could do quite well with only d-bol or anadrol too.

Tren and test or tren and d-bol are best I think.
You don't need three hormones but tren, test and d-bol is a nice combo.

I like to recommend three for the guys that are above their natural max weight simply because I think it is the best way to get to a higher total mg dose...there is something to be said about stacking although it is a little over rated.

RG

 

[Mandinka2]

Nelson Montana

Hello, I'm a very conservative user (only one cycle one year ago) mostly because I have grown very well naturally. At 230lbs and 14% I am considering going on a consistent regimen and am interested in your opinion as to what the optimal cycle length should be. I shut down badly (I believe) on deca and didn't make any non-drug gains for a good six months post last cycle. Also how do you recover endogenous test production without clomid?
My next cycle is not far away and I'm probably gonna go the route outlined here with 25mgs dbol/day (any more has my back painfully swollen) and 75mgs tren ed/eod (10ml over two weeks).

 

[Nelson Montana]

Realgains: Glad to hear you're getting blood tests and everything looks good. But that doesn't mean tren isn't toxic. There are people who smoke a pack of cigerettes a day and live to be 85. There are guys who sock away a bottle of booze each night and have no liver problems. That doesn't mean the threat doesn't exist or that it won't catch up to you. No thanks on the tren offer. Besides, I'm clean these days -- just test replacement straight from the doc.

The fact that W is hard on the hair, reduces SHBG, and only aromatizes in stupid dosages suggests a strong conversion to DHT.

Anadrol? Ain't worth it. Toxic, bloating, high blood pressure, gyno. Nah. Winny and d-bol for me.

Mandinka: The only way to bounce back is to let your body do it naturally. If dosages are kept low, and you're young and healthy, it shouldn't be a problem. Look at all the guys from the 60's. No anti-e's. No gyno.

Your problem was probably the deca. This advice is purely hypotetical, but I'd go with the 25 mgs of d-bol and 100mgs of Primo EOD for a total of 6 hits. On week 3, take just 2 d-bol in the morning Week 3 -- out. If you train hard and eat enough, you should put on about 10-12 solid pounds -- should keep about 8 of them.

 

[Realgains]

Nelson......

But bro wouldn't perfectly normal kidney function tests mean that no damage is being done with the tren? When kidney damage starts the first thing the goes up is creatinine and it doesn't take much damaage to see this elevate..then up goes the blood urea nitrogen.....I have had never had even slight elevations with tren use bro.

Oh, I am sure that you will agree that the #1 side for men using roids is a very shitty lipid profile. I would be extra careful with the 17aa roids and especially winstrol as this one seems to be the worst for affecting HDL. But you probably take precautions like limited time on and niacin therapy.

I think tren is milder on the body than winstrol or any other 17aa roid.....just my opinion though.

RG

 

[CharlesAtlast]

Hey Rg what do you think of 4 on 4 off???

 

[Realgains]

Hey Rg what do you think of 4 on 4 off???

I think that is a good idea. Four weeks is about the limit for "safe cycling" as long as estrogen levels don't get out of hand. The time "on" time off is smart too.

If you do this year round be sure to use HCG at 3-500 iu's per day while "on" as the testes will shrink over a few cycles at this rate and that always messes with natural test recovery. 2 "on" 2 Off would be a little better I think but this is an individual thing....just keep an eye on the lipid profile and liver enyzmes if they get crappy then switch to 2 on 4 off for a while.

RG

 

[drug_against_war]

Hey Nelson, I'm assuming your talking about the oral primo tabs with the acetate esther, not the injectable primo with the long-acting enanthate esther, which would not work for a two-week cycle.

 

[Realgains]

I wouldn't use oral primo for two reasons ...#1 its too weak and #2. almost impossible to find the real macoy.

RG

 

[Mandinka2]

Nelson Montana

As real gains points out , primo depot is a long acting inj. , therefore the ester would be still active at two weeks , Ive become very interested in this idea as I don't believe that either long or high doses are neccessary to get to say 250lbs , if high intesity and sensible training is used so I've looked up some articles by Bill Roberts (Mr. Montana is also noted here) and am curious now about the use of cytadren , which I have been led to believe was a very dangerous drug. So should I or shouldn't I and if so how? Thanks a lot for gettin back to me , this is one of the more informative threads on elite.