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Too much Squatting??
- Thread starter Iwillbe
- Start date
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Citruscide
Guest
I do some curls every now and then... but stiff deads seem to do everything I need for my hams and glutes...
I do front squats, basically because I can't grip the bar behind my head for regular squats.. and they work pretty damn good...
C-ditty
I do front squats, basically because I can't grip the bar behind my head for regular squats.. and they work pretty damn good...
C-ditty
michaelcoutts
New member
leg extensions are usless for the quads! STick to squats
Zyglamail said:
I totally agree with the leg extensions thing, right up there with the pec dec in total uselessness. But I kinds disagree about spacing the deads out, I pull very heavy and do it every week (as well as squats), and have never had a problem. I maybe take about 4 weeks a year off from deads. I recover fine and my back is still growing like a weed, but I guess it might be different for some.
session 1
2 * 5 squat
2 * 10 squat
2 * 15 squat
2 * 20 single leg hack squat
2 * 25 hack squat
2 * 30 single leg leg press
2 * 35 leg press
session 2
2 * 20 heavy "breathing" squats
3 * 10 single leg hack squat
3 * 15 hack squat
3 * 20 single leg leg press
3 * 25 leg press
Repeat
2 * 5 squat
2 * 10 squat
2 * 15 squat
2 * 20 single leg hack squat
2 * 25 hack squat
2 * 30 single leg leg press
2 * 35 leg press
session 2
2 * 20 heavy "breathing" squats
3 * 10 single leg hack squat
3 * 15 hack squat
3 * 20 single leg leg press
3 * 25 leg press
Repeat
Needsize, notice I said they can wipe your ass out at firstneedsize said:
meaning at first it may be a good idea to space them out when first switching. If he has not been doing any of these exercises and immediatly jumps on all three he could be a hurting unit and it may take some time to build up to weekly use of all three together. By all means if you have the recovery power to do them all every week go for it, but I find most, if hitting them all hard will overtrain if they are not eased into a bit.
Fatty4You
New member
needsize said:
I disagree with this totally. Leg extension and pec deck are both fantastic exercises.
Leg extensions can be great to warm up my knees and quads. They are also good to pre-exhaust before squats. Also, after sqauts, I can use leg extensions to really concentrate to feel fibers that I dont feel during squat. For instance, i feel the lower part of my quads during squats, but i can really feel the upper parts of my quad fire during leg extensions. Plus, i feel that i have some control over what gets emphasized with the way i point my toes. Plus, i can do partial reps at different angles to work any kind of weekness.
And pec deck, i can't imagine not liking it. I get the most tremendous burn from it and my pump is out of this world. Its one of my favorite chest movements. And, my strength in it has gone up very fast!
Maybe i am just a freak or something, but these exercises shoudl not be overlooked.
-Fatty
Show me any powerlifter who relys on leg ext/curl and not the squat or dead for leg strength.....my guess is you wont find one. Im not saying they dont use them but most will often times use them in everyday routines but once the start to prepare for a meet they drop them and concentrate on the big exercises. Now, if the leg extension/pec dec is so great for strength why dont they use them more often than not?Fatty4You said:
On a side note do not confuse burn/pump with muscle hypertrophy/CNS stimulation.
Zyglamail said:Needsize, notice I said they can wipe your ass out at first
Oh, I guess I didnt read you post well enough, didnt realize you meant when first starting, that makes sense.
Fatty, I've got a couple thoughts on what you said about the pec dec and leg extensions. First, I'm pretty sure that extensions actually put a lot of strain on the knees, so using them to warm up could be asking for injury. But the main thing is that muscle growth is the result of stimulating enough muscle fibres hard enough to force them to grow to adapt, and those exercises are unable to cause that much stress.
Here's the way I look at it,and this approach has helped me go from 140lbs to 230lbs over the years. Your body can only handle a given amount of sets in a workout before you begin to over train. Given that, it makes sense to use only exercises that cause the most amount of stress on the muscle, for those limited amount of sets. Chest for example, I generally stick around 10 sets at most, and use flat bench press, incline dumbell press, and incline flyes. To add pec dec in there, i would have to remove one of those exercises, but those are all heavy compound exercises that no pec dec, or cable flyes can hope to duplicate.
Just my 0.02
Fatty4You
New member
Zyglamail said:
First off, I am not a powerlifter, so strength is not my most important goal. Not to say i am not trying to get stronger, but if i get big without getting strong, i am fine with that.
Second, i am not saying to NOT use squats or deads as you seem to think i was saying. I use them in CONJUNCTION with squats and deads. I would never leave out squats, its what kills my legs so good. I was just saying that in addition to sqauts and deads, more concentratino style exersizes should not be considered useless.
Plus, lets say you have imbalances in leg strength. For instance, if one leg was just stronger, or perhaps you, like my friend, tore his hamstring and was 50% strong in one hamstring, you could use unilateral exercises to help even things out.
Now, you say, "Show me a powerlifter, blah blah blah", well i say, show me a bodybuilder who never uses leg curls/extensions as part of their workout? I have never met one in person.
-Fatty
Leg estensions put a lot of sheering force on the knee as needsize suggested as for a body builder that doesnt do them, just look above at needsizes avatar and ask him how often he does leg extension/curls. The man has an awesome set of wheels.
On a side note, show me a powerlifter with small legs, if you dont think strength training gives you mass your sadly mistaken. I like mass as much as the next guy but lets face it I want my mass to be fully funtional, not just for looks.
On a side note, show me a powerlifter with small legs, if you dont think strength training gives you mass your sadly mistaken. I like mass as much as the next guy but lets face it I want my mass to be fully funtional, not just for looks.
Last edited:
Fatty4You
New member
I am not disputing Needsize's size. Clearly he is a big dude. But honestly, one person doesn't convince me.
I think you fellas are being too close minded about this whole thing. If you dont want to do the exercises then don't do them. But i think it is sad to look at lifting in such a narrow way. There is no one set way that will work. The body needs variation in exercises/ reps / tempo/ angles/ etc etc. And everyone is different and everyone has their own exercises that work for them.
To say that no one should ever use a particular exercise [except those that are likely to cause injury] is to be foolish and ignorant.
I am not trying to be offensive, i just think maybe you are to engrained in your ways to see things objectively.
-Fatty
I think you fellas are being too close minded about this whole thing. If you dont want to do the exercises then don't do them. But i think it is sad to look at lifting in such a narrow way. There is no one set way that will work. The body needs variation in exercises/ reps / tempo/ angles/ etc etc. And everyone is different and everyone has their own exercises that work for them.
To say that no one should ever use a particular exercise [except those that are likely to cause injury] is to be foolish and ignorant.
I am not trying to be offensive, i just think maybe you are to engrained in your ways to see things objectively.
-Fatty
Thanks for the props Zyg
Anyway, I dont think that I'm stuck in my ways, in fact, I think I'm the exact opposite for the most part. I am a hardgainer who started at 140lbs when I started training, and who had to fight for every ounce gained over the years. I've since gone from 140-230lbs, but its taken me ten years, and during that time I've tried every training approach known to man, and even came up with some decent variations myself. One thing that I became an "expert" on was what didnt work for me, and all of the machines like cables, pec dec, leg extensions, etc, never built me any size. The only stuff that ever worked was the heavy compound movements. I wish it were different though, if I could use a machine to build say a big back, without having to deadlift well over 500lbs for reps like I have to, I'd be all over that.
Anyway, I dont think that I'm stuck in my ways, in fact, I think I'm the exact opposite for the most part. I am a hardgainer who started at 140lbs when I started training, and who had to fight for every ounce gained over the years. I've since gone from 140-230lbs, but its taken me ten years, and during that time I've tried every training approach known to man, and even came up with some decent variations myself. One thing that I became an "expert" on was what didnt work for me, and all of the machines like cables, pec dec, leg extensions, etc, never built me any size. The only stuff that ever worked was the heavy compound movements. I wish it were different though, if I could use a machine to build say a big back, without having to deadlift well over 500lbs for reps like I have to, I'd be all over that.
Since your goal is to be objective, then why the comment on exercises that are likely to cause injury? Are you aware that it has been clinically proven that the stresses on the knee from leg extensions are much more severe than those from squats/deads? Injuries on the compound movements are not cause by the exercise, its caused by improper form.Fatty4You said:
I dont think either needsize or myself are being narrow minded and we are not necessarily saying they should never be done but I think its safe to say we are both interested in results and getting the most from time spent in the gym and in order to do that you have to lift big to get big. Its about going back to the basics and getting the most from your time and energy.
No problem, you've worked hard and it definatly shows.needsize said:
Your not alone here. Think about it, there isnt a guy on this planet who has built noticable mass using these simple movements. Regardless of the amount of importance people place on these isolation exercises they simply do not give the mass that most of us are looking for.needsize said:
Fatty4You
New member
I have not heard that leg extensions have been shown to cause injury. If so, than i can accept that. I am seriously interested in this actually. Do you know of an article I could read about it. I do leg extensions as a final burn exercise, or as a prefatigue exercise, and if they are causing my damage, I should like to stop.
If you could point me to an article or a study that would be great. Thanks,
Fatty
If you could point me to an article or a study that would be great. Thanks,
Fatty
I'm also not saying that there arent machines that I will use. Pulldowns, cable rows, some hammer strength stuff, all generally done at the end of my workout, can be beneficial for various reasons, but I really do keep them to a minimum. Its just that the examples that were used, extensions and pec dec, I feel are some of the most useless but over used exercises out there, but again that is just my opinion.
Specifically about leg extensions, I have read articles talking about the shearing force caused by it, I just dont save articles. But I've also found it to be true in my own training. I have squatted up to 450lbs for 5 reps ass to the floor with no knee pain at all, but any time I do leg extensions my knees hurt like crazy
Specifically about leg extensions, I have read articles talking about the shearing force caused by it, I just dont save articles. But I've also found it to be true in my own training. I have squatted up to 450lbs for 5 reps ass to the floor with no knee pain at all, but any time I do leg extensions my knees hurt like crazy
There are actually many but I dont currently have them bookmarked or anything. If I get time I will try and dig some up. If your joints are in good shape and the exercise does not cause you pain or discomfort you are likely not doing any harm. I was just trying to point out the fact that the actual sheering forces have been measured and due to the support under the upper leg and downward weight applied to the front of the shin, you are actually applying sideways pressure on the joint and all the stress is placed directly on tendons/ligaments. Even in a deep squat the primary forces are applied to the socket itself where they are supposed to be.Fatty4You said:
Fatty4You
New member
Zyg, Thanks for the info about the leg extensions. I feel kinda like a dick having argued, and all the while I was the ignorant one.
Actually, my knees are kinda in pain right now. Deep squats feel ok, once i get warmed up. Acutally, I have to go deep cause otherwise, if i stop to early, too much stress on the knee. Leg extensions don't give pain symptoms, but how knows, maybe they are what are causing the pain to occur at other times.
I'll definately look up the info. If i could get my knees to stop being annoying by stopping extensions, i'd be so happy i'd have to crap my pants.
-Fatty
Actually, my knees are kinda in pain right now. Deep squats feel ok, once i get warmed up. Acutally, I have to go deep cause otherwise, if i stop to early, too much stress on the knee. Leg extensions don't give pain symptoms, but how knows, maybe they are what are causing the pain to occur at other times.
I'll definately look up the info. If i could get my knees to stop being annoying by stopping extensions, i'd be so happy i'd have to crap my pants.
-Fatty
Bah, dont sweat it. Argueing...or should I say debatingFatty4You said:
is how we learn, the simple fact that you were willing to contend the point and continue to do so when confronted with multiple people shows your willing to learn and expand your knowledge and thats why im here. Im not right all the time either but if it werent for the fact there are people out there who want to learn, then I wouldnt need to be here and EF likely wouldnt exists.
Fatty4You
New member
So, i tried to find some info on leg extensions and i found a mixed amount of info. On The T-Mag site, i found this article by Ian king:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/179buck.html
It has this part about the knee stuff:
The overreaction in the early 90’s failed to observe more recent conclusions regarding the relative joint forces in the squat (a closed kinetic chain exercise or CKC) and the leg extension (an open kinetic chain exercise or OKC). Neitzel and Davies (10), in an excellent article regarding the benefits and controversy of the parallel squat in strength training and rehabilitation, concluded:
"When exercising from 30 degrees to 90 degrees ROM, OKC may be a better choice than CKC exercises because there may be less PFJ [patella-femoral joint] stress and more VMO electromyographic activity."
The point I’m making is that the leg extension has something to offer, and should be considered as an option and not ruled out of contention! As the statement above shows, it in fact may bring to the table a unique opportunity and benefit not offered by any other exercise!
Can anyone explain that middle paragraph to me in english? I have no idea what some of the stuff means. And, does this mean that its ok to do Leg Extensions through certain ranges of motion, but not all??
Thanks, trying to figure this all out. Hopefully, getting to understand this can help me deal with my knee problem.
-Fatty
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/179buck.html
It has this part about the knee stuff:
The overreaction in the early 90’s failed to observe more recent conclusions regarding the relative joint forces in the squat (a closed kinetic chain exercise or CKC) and the leg extension (an open kinetic chain exercise or OKC). Neitzel and Davies (10), in an excellent article regarding the benefits and controversy of the parallel squat in strength training and rehabilitation, concluded:
"When exercising from 30 degrees to 90 degrees ROM, OKC may be a better choice than CKC exercises because there may be less PFJ [patella-femoral joint] stress and more VMO electromyographic activity."
The point I’m making is that the leg extension has something to offer, and should be considered as an option and not ruled out of contention! As the statement above shows, it in fact may bring to the table a unique opportunity and benefit not offered by any other exercise!
Can anyone explain that middle paragraph to me in english? I have no idea what some of the stuff means. And, does this mean that its ok to do Leg Extensions through certain ranges of motion, but not all??
Thanks, trying to figure this all out. Hopefully, getting to understand this can help me deal with my knee problem.
-Fatty
This one is more of a model study done but interesting none the less, some of the exact figures are hard to determine without the full text, but you will notice that the leg extension does cause the highest tension.
Next we have another abstract which simply states the open loop exercise(leg extension) causes more anterior tibial displacement(which equates to more shear force).
yet another....
Next we have another abstract which simply states the open loop exercise(leg extension) causes more anterior tibial displacement(which equates to more shear force).
yet another....
Fatty4You
New member
Hey zyglamail, great post man. Thanks for the info.
So, from what i am gathering, the lower part of the leg extension is bad, like below 60 degress or so. But, do you think its ok to use the LE to do some small ROM movements at the top of the extension to really get a good squeeze? I dont really get the best squeeze on squats or leg press cause i dont want to lock out my knees, but i figure on the leg press, there no downward weight [through the knee] so doing some lockout there to work that range would be beneficial.
I figure, when it comes to the body, Form Follows Function, so if i want to be strong at the top, i got to work at the top???
-Fatty
So, from what i am gathering, the lower part of the leg extension is bad, like below 60 degress or so. But, do you think its ok to use the LE to do some small ROM movements at the top of the extension to really get a good squeeze? I dont really get the best squeeze on squats or leg press cause i dont want to lock out my knees, but i figure on the leg press, there no downward weight [through the knee] so doing some lockout there to work that range would be beneficial.
I figure, when it comes to the body, Form Follows Function, so if i want to be strong at the top, i got to work at the top???
-Fatty
Fatty4You, as I mentioned, I dont think the extension is a bad exercise, just not the best for the knees or for mass. The main reason for me posting these abstracts was to simply dispell the myth that squats were hard on the knees. SO many people avoid them and stick to extensions and curls because they heard squats were bad for the knees. However, if you take just about anyone they can squat a lot more weight(especially considering they have their own body weight to lift as well) than they can do on the leg extension and even with significantly less weight the leg extension puts more stress on the joint.
If your knees are in good shape the leg extension should not cause a problem for you.
In the estension, unless I am totally reading thing wrong(hehe been known to happen, especially in the morning) you are going to have the most sheering for when the leg is straight. You have support under the back of the upper thigh and weight on the front of the shine pressing down. The weight distribution is not directly into the socket of the knee, but sideways stresses. In the squat the weight is bearing down on the upper body and pressing the joint together at full contraction.
If your knees are in good shape the leg extension should not cause a problem for you.
In the estension, unless I am totally reading thing wrong(hehe been known to happen, especially in the morning) you are going to have the most sheering for when the leg is straight. You have support under the back of the upper thigh and weight on the front of the shine pressing down. The weight distribution is not directly into the socket of the knee, but sideways stresses. In the squat the weight is bearing down on the upper body and pressing the joint together at full contraction.
Fatty4You
New member
I think my biggest problem with all this stuff is, is that i just dont understand what a Shearing force actually is. I have tried to find it, but i pretty much just come up with stuff like "A shearing force is a force the causes an object to change its shape." Now, how does that apply to the knee - i have no idea. But i keep seeing in reference to the knee.
And as for good knees. My left knee hurts. I have notices, the when i do leg extensions currently, i feel the pain near the starting position, but the pain goes away once my leg straightens out.
As for squats, i feel the pain at about a little above parallel, then once i drop below parallel, the pain is gone.
As for how this affects me, aside from PISSING Me off!! it deosn't really affect me to bad. I can still do most things, i just can't use as much weight. But i am having my knee looked at by my chiro and hopefully, one day, it will be better.
-Fatty
And as for good knees. My left knee hurts. I have notices, the when i do leg extensions currently, i feel the pain near the starting position, but the pain goes away once my leg straightens out.
As for squats, i feel the pain at about a little above parallel, then once i drop below parallel, the pain is gone.
As for how this affects me, aside from PISSING Me off!! it deosn't really affect me to bad. I can still do most things, i just can't use as much weight. But i am having my knee looked at by my chiro and hopefully, one day, it will be better.
-Fatty
SImply put what I am referring to is more or less a direct sideways force. In other words if you put a board in a vice so it could not move (ie your upper leg against the seat of a left ext machine). Now press the far end of the board sticking out of the vice and you will see a gradual bend over the whole distance on the board sticking out. Now if you apply pressure right above where the vice has the board clamped the force is no longer spread through the entire length of the protruding part of the board and in turn most of the stress is right where the board is clamped in the vice. Those are two extremes and the leg extension is somewhere between, there is a direct cross ways force applied to the knee when the leg is extended because the upper leg is imobile(for the most part) and you are pressing down on the front of the shin with weight. In a squat you are applying pressure down and its supported under the foot with the joint in the middle (ie closed loop).
D
Debaser
Guest
Fatty4You said:
Leg extensions are bad for your knees, I've read at least a few articles on this...I'm thinking at least one was in hardgainer but I'm not sure. It's not a natural movement like squatting, and imposes serious shear forces on the knees. But you seem to have accepted this now anyway.
The Pec Deck is pretty worthless. I'm surprised how many people on these boards still equate "burn" and "pump" with muscle growth. You could obtain these with 5 lb weights, if so desired. Pec deck exercises is very taxing on chest recovery, also. I want my body focused on recovery from heavy sets of benches or dips, and not worry about overtraining with this silly exercise.
About the whole bodybuilder vs. powerlifter thing, powerlifiters are almost always smarter trainers than bodybuilders. A lot of kids think they can be big benching 180 and squatting 200. Unless you're Paul Dillet or some other genetic freak, this is not going to happen. If you focus on continuing to add weight to the bar, till you can, for example, deadlift 500 lbs or more, you're going to have obtained some incredible thickness (assuming you eat enough).
Fatty4You
New member
I am trying to add more weight to my lifts constantly. It doesn't happen as fast as i would like, but its happening slowly. But i have to say that I add size much easier than i add strength. I am certainly not a genetic freak, but i have been told before that when i lift, even when i am struggling with weight, i look like i am doing warm up sets cause my size calls for more weight to be lifted.
Not really any point to this post other than to say size and strength are not always so highly coorelated.
-Fatty
Not really any point to this post other than to say size and strength are not always so highly coorelated.
-Fatty
D
Debaser
Guest
You have part of the equation. I am the EXACT same way. Some guys I know lift 3 x what I do and I'm still bigger.
However it's not as much strength in general, as it is strength GAINS. If you take your 100 lb squat to 400 lbs, that's a 300 lb change and probably a few inches of muscular girth to most of your body.
I started a new thread on wrist/ankle measurements to see who here has it made genetically speaking, who has to struggle, etc...this has to do with your size/strength.
However it's not as much strength in general, as it is strength GAINS. If you take your 100 lb squat to 400 lbs, that's a 300 lb change and probably a few inches of muscular girth to most of your body.
I started a new thread on wrist/ankle measurements to see who here has it made genetically speaking, who has to struggle, etc...this has to do with your size/strength.
louden_swain
New member
Iwillbe said:
Leg curls and leg extensions have their place, but in order to build strength and size using the squat is an excellent choice. Here is a routine that I follow that incorporates a variety of exercises:
Squats - 8 x 5
Leg Presses (Wide Stance) - 3 x 10-12
Stiff Leg Deadlifts - 3 x 8-10
Leg Extensions - 2 x 20 or 2 x 10-12
Lying Leg Curls - 3 x 10-15
Here are my thoughts on these exercises:
SQUATS - Many will argue that this is the best strength and mass builder for the lower body. In my opinion this is a correct statement. Squats build incredible strength in the hips and lower back. Squats also release tremendous amounts of hormones and turn a body into an anabolic machine. In order to maximize the benefit of the exercise, I recommend squatting to at least parallel. To overload the hip girdle and to get the feel of a heavy weight, you can occasionally use partial reps. Overall, I rate this exercise on the top of my list for developing a lower body.
LEG PRESSES - In my opinion, this exercise is excellent for both overloading and forcing your quads to work. However, they are poor for developing hip and lower back strength. Use this exercise after your squats.
LEG EXTENSIONS - In my opinion, not a good exercise for developing mass in the quads. However, they are excellent for developing stabilizer strength in the tendons and ligaments that surround the knee joint. I used this exercise to rehab my knee when I tore my ACL in 1993. I consider this an isolation movement, therefore it should be used after you complete your basic compound movements.
STIFF LEG DEADS - If you are looking to develop thick steel cables in the back of your leg, a tight butt, and a strong lower back then this is the exercise for you. If you perform this exercise on a regular basis, I promise you that your squat poundages and your leg mass will increase. This exercise emphasizes the weak links in the squat (hams and lower back).
LYING LEG CURL - Again an isolation movement, but is valuable for packing on extra meat between the back of the knee and the lower butt.
Overall, if you want the mass and strength. . . perform tons of squats. However, be sure to include other exercises from time to time to emphasize different areas. Remember, the basic compound movements will give you the best results. Also, practice your technique and adjust your poundages accordingly where you can maintain proper form. I wish you luck!!
JDarty6173
New member
How about we just make this simple.. Make sure you Squat and Deadlift.. Plus stiffleg deads, Romanian Deads, etc... And if you just want to throw in Leg curls and extensions, well by all means go ahead.. But if your compound movements were done with true intensity, then i doubt you will feel the need.......
