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Strength/nosize

leatherface

leatherface

New member
Ok here is my question. Lets say that I wanted to lift for strength only, and no longer wanted anysize(atleast for certain muscle groups)...what program/rep range/volume/rest period would you recommend? This is for lots of strength and not really size. I was thinking maybe like 5 sets, 3 reps and 3-5 minutes rest(depending on what exercise)... followed by 2sets, 1 rep, and then 2 sets, 5 reps.... that is all for 1 muscle group. What do you guys think? I would really appreciate some input on this because I can't afford to gain too much more size in certain areas(due to kickboxing/martial arts).. Ok thanks alot, if you know anything about this please post!
 
Would you care to xplain CNS conditioning please?

Also, the only problem with just 1-3 reps, would be that..i know i need to vary my routine alot, like every 2 weeks, so with only doing 1-3 reps, that doesn't give me many options. I'm sure I can work around that though. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Any other strong martial artists here or anyone that knows what im talking about?!? :) thanks
 
b-fold, spatts, thaibox, needsize...anyone with massive amounts of lifting knowledge!!! someone has to know :) I need to plan out a new routine and would really appreciate it if someone knew the answer to my question and posted :) thanks alot guys !
 
isnt it kind of hard to increase your strength w/o increasing size? - your body will grow in response to heavy lifting
 
to an extent yes, but you can gain alot of strength without gaining that much size..look at people like Andrzej Stanaszek who weigh 114 and squat 640 lbs and benches almost 400, or Lamar Gant who weighs in at 123 and deadlifts 640, these are just a few examples though. I was just curious if any of you had information to this. I know that I will have to grow a bit when i gain strength, but you can certainly cut that down. Sorry I wasn't trying to make this out to be another newbie post, I just really wanted some good info on this.
 
strong people have strong tendons... also some people do have natural strength to begin with... some people are just freaks.
 
Yes, it is possible to gain strength without size. It isn't all genetic, though much of it is. Some people can gain size no matter what they do but I would say that is rare. Just stick to the low reps, high weights. Try spreading your sets out over the day if you have that type of acess to the gym. Stay away from the 6-15 or more reps- as that will tend to increase sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Read these links-

http://www.cbass.com/Synaptic.htm
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=69
http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/hypertrophy.txt


Many of the guys on this site will try to sell you the bodybuilding method as the only way possible to lift, and thus the only results you can get. This isn't true however. For you guys that want to retain a bodyweight range there is hope.
 
Ya i understand those guys I posted are freaks :), but im just saying its possible and was curious if any of you had any helpful information for me. But since no one is really sure, how about this... would it help if i still did statics or negatives? I guess I'll just vary around what i said before, 1-4 reps, medium volume, higher rest(2-4 mins). To everyone that posted and is still going to post :) thanks a ton!!! Even if little, I appreciate all the help ive got/
 
have you looked into boxing and wrestling workouts? Most wrestler's i know are very strong... (i think it is the one on one resistance training with another person that makes them stronger to be honest). They always have to make weight classes so they cajn't go above a certain amount.
 
lifting weights for max strength doesn't have much cross over for boxing. i would think kickboxing would be the same.

strength comes from speed/technique.
 
R CRUSHER said:
lifting weights for max strength doesn't have much cross over for boxing. i would think kickboxing would be the same.

strength comes from speed/technique.
Click to expand...

http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

Says you- I think Dr. Squat thinks otherwise. So do many other strength trainers with some serious credentials and experience. Do you have evidence to back up your specious claims or are you just spouting crap that somebody, again with no experience or credentials, has told you?

Here, some claims that suggest otherwise-

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/get_articles.php?cat=Strengthening
http://www.prepareforcombat.com/mik-12.html
http://www.strengthcats.com/strengthfundamentals.htm
http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bodybuildma.html

I can provide more, though I would say that three people come into mind when somebody says what you just said or something similar about strength training/weight lifting and some form of martial art. (boxing is technically a martial art, same with wrestling, or sword fighting etc)

Those three people are- Dr. Hatefield (coached Holyfield in a strength routine)
Charles Staley- A well known strength trainer as well as a martial artist.
Pavel Tsatsouline- Strong as an ox but not huge, flexiable and also a practictioner of Russian Martial arts. (most of his training is targeted specifically at the martial artist)

Again- Do you have contrary evidence that there isn't much crossover? Because these three giants in the field say otherwise.
 
Thanks for posting those sites :) I have to leave now but ill check them out when i get home. Thanks alot guys :) Any more info is still greatly appreciated!!!!
 
Maybe I missed it in my haste, but I'm surprised no one suggested that he eat no more than the amount of Calories needed only to maintain. You won't grow muscle out of air, but you can still make CNS adaptations.
 
R CRUSHER said:
lifting weights for max strength doesn't have much cross over for boxing. i would think kickboxing would be the same.

strength comes from speed/technique.
Click to expand...

epmi- i guess you didn't read:confused:
i said "MAX" as in training with 1-3reps.

i don't know any TOP boxing trainers, Manny Stewart,Ronni Sheilds,Tommy Brooks, Buddy McGirt, Floyd Mayweather sr., Freddie Roach, that have their fighters train with such heavy weight, it puts too muc stress on the CNS. the last thing you want is a overtrained fighter on fight night.

i didn't read any of those articles because i don't need too.

if DR. SQUAT says squatting 500lbs will make you a better boxer, the people who are getting paid $$$$millions aren't listening either.
 
Last edited:
i don't know any TOP boxing trainers, Manny Stewart,Ronni Sheilds,Tommy Brooks, Buddy McGirt, Floyd Mayweather SR. that have their fighter train with such heavy weight, it puts too muc stress on the CNS.
Click to expand...

what is the big deal if it does put too much stress on the CNS? Or atleast if you have no fights coming up soon. Just curious
 
R CRUSHER said:


epmi- i guess you didn't read:confused:
i said "MAX" as in training with 1-3reps.

i don't know any TOP boxing trainers, Manny Stewart,Ronni Sheilds,Tommy Brooks, Buddy McGirt, Floyd Mayweather sr., Freddie Roach, that have their fighters train with such heavy weight, it puts too muc stress on the CNS. the last thing you want is a overtrained fighter on fight night.

i didn't read any of those articles because i don't need too.

if DR. SQUAT says squatting 500lbs will make you a better boxer, the people who are getting paid $$$$millions aren't listening either.
Click to expand...

Well obviously you don't train max close to a fight. There is a thing called cycling, just like in bodybuilding.


You obviously aren't interested in learning, nor respectable debate, as you ignore the links I posted. Oh, you don't "need" to, thats right, you know more than them. :rolleyes:

I don't know how those people you listed train. I would imagine they train for strength, just as most top level athletes do. Strength training for combat sports is vital. Training with low weights for high reps just makes you sore, making it difficult to train for your sport.

Nice straw man by the way. Obviously squatting 500lbs isn't going to have much of a carry over in BOXING, I never said it did, nor does Dr. Squat. Being able to do bodyweight olympic lifts or more, have a heavy overhead press and a decent bench press will have lots of carry over. Now for a kickboxer it might be a different story, but you cleverly avoided that combat sport.

Wanna try posting a link or two? You see, my arguments alone have zero crediblity- that is why I post links. The links I post to are written by trainers that have LOTS of credibility. You have ZERO credibility as well, unless you want to post some credentials. If you can't be "bothered" to do so, stay out of the debate. If you cant put out, stay out.
 
:confused: there's a difference between strength training and training for "MAX STRENGTH"

my experience comes from "real world" not what i've read on the internet web page.

just go to your local boxing/kick boxing gym.....and tell me what you see? you won't see guys lifting like Powerlifters for MAX strength.

you obviously don't know much about boxing...

trainer MANNY STEWART - LENNOX LEWIS

trainer RONNIE SHIELDS - MIKE TYSON,VERNON FORREST,BERNARD HOPKINS WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO

trainer BUDDY MCGIRT - ATURO GATTI,JAMMEL MCCLINE

trainer FLOYLD MAYWEATHER SR. - OSCAR DE LA HOYA, FLOYD MAYWEATHER JR.


i know this is not a boxing forum but i do know boxing.

there maybe 1 or 2 people on the face of the planet that can hit as hard as Mike Tyson.......but there are 1000's
of guys out there that are stronger at bench,squat,deads,etc......
 
Ah, didn't want to start a flame riot here! Just wanted some useful info :)(which i have got a good bit of by the way) thanks
 
I know how boxers train. I also know how many martial artists train. Like little sissies afraid that they will get huge and slow down by lifting heavy weights.

Sorry pal, knowing a couple boxers trainers names doesn't prove jack shit. Nor does saying go to a boxing gym and see how they train. I have seen how they train, and it is no wonder that they are not pros. Provide some links or don't bother posting. I don't know too many people that trust something they see on a message board by some guy that doesn't even bother to read an article or two. By respected names no less. They are not "Just names on the internet" but cutting edge strength trainers (in the case of Pavel and Staley).

So tell me R- What is the difference between strength training and training for max strength? Does anybody train for mid strength? Sounds pretty gay to me.

Dumb boxer- I am doing some strength training, some weights, plyometrics, ballistic training, ya know, but not for max strength. I know that getting stronger and recruiting more muscle fibers can help with my explosiveness and help me achieve a bigger punch and that strength really helps in the ring, but that magical point where it reaches max strength just doesn't help anymore and hinders me. I try to avoid that magical point that R Crusher on the interenet told me about. Screw that max strength.

It wouldn't surprise me that some of the top boxing trainers that have been at it for years don't train with heavy weights. They probably proscribe to that low weights high reps bullshit. Strength doesn't carry over, according to them, but being able to curl a dumbell 100 times in one set supposedly does. :rolleyes:

Yeah, you stick to your "real world" experience then. I am sure I will see your name in lights sometime, what with your "cutting edge" training methods. Cutting edge back in the 50's perhaps.
However an internet isn't real world, and frankly you can be full of shit. Some fat little loser with glasses and a drippy nose that is an "expert" on whatever. Sorry doesn't cut it. I still don't see links or credentials. On the internet, if you have a claim, you provide citations to support your argument. A detailed refutation, explaining why it is so, several links to experts in the field explaining why it is so, and perhaps a few other acessory links to back up their claim as well. Like some physiology. Is that real world enough for you?
Well, in the real world I could look at you, see you fight, or your sucess in training, and gauge how much you know what you are talking about and what kind of sucess you have had with your training methods. On the internet I cannot do that, I go on your argument and what kind of backing your argument has. Which is to say- flashing a few names with the claim that they don't train their boxers with heavy weights. Which I don't believe with just your "word" backing the statement. And you still refuse to post links.

http://www.ringside.com/archives/strength_and_conditioning/weighttraining.htm
 
I, personally, wouldn't train for 1 rep maxlifts in an agility sport. Just in the short time I've been powerlifting, I can see that if I don't spend a dedicated amount of time making sure I work in multiple planes, it is VERY EASY to become super strong in one movement and actually WEAKER in others. You establish strength within a finite recruitment pattern, and anything outside that pattern become more risky. Of course, this is why we train FOR chaos recovery through multi-plane movements, but not every "1 rep max" athlete does that.

B fold is trained in martial arts, and I could see where his "mid range strength" of being "strong," at not just 1 but 15-20 of something, would be far more useful for strongman, and any endurance/speed/strength sport than straight powerlifting might be.
 
spatts said:
I, personally, wouldn't train for 1 rep maxlifts in an agility sport. Just in the short time I've been powerlifting, I can see that if I don't spend a dedicated amount of time making sure I work in multiple planes, it is VERY EASY to become super strong in one movement and actually WEAKER in others. You establish strength within a finite recruitment pattern, and anything outside that pattern become more risky. Of course, this is why we train FOR chaos recovery through multi-plane movements, but not every "1 rep max" athlete does that.

B fold is trained in martial arts, and I could see where his "mid range strength" of being "strong," at not just 1 but 15-20 of something, would be far more useful for strongman, and any endurance/speed/strength sport than straight powerlifting might be.
Click to expand...

You wouldn't train that way at all? Ever?

I'm not excluding the middle here, I am not advocating or saying somebody in a combat sport should train exclusively in the 1 rep or 3 rep range. I believe in a rounded training routine. (periodized) Some strength training like WSB, some endurance type training (though limited to avoid size gains), even some strongman training would be great. Mix things up a bit with some plyometric/ballistic types of training mixxed in with lots and lots of cardio and specific sport training. (hitting bags, shadow boxing, hand pads, etc in the case of boxing)

If I seem to be so one dimensional that I seem to be suggesting that is all a fighter needs is to lift as heavy as possible at all times and that is all he/she needs, then I appologize for seeming that way. But please, give me some credit, I am nowhere near that stupid.

However, no matter what the naysayers proclaim, the stronger fighter will win hands down, when all else is equal.
 
:( sheesh......you have know idea how often this topic comes up.:confused:

there's always a new novice boxer/kick boxer who thinks if his 1 rep "MAX" bench/squats go up and hits the weight room HARD! he'll be a HARDER HITTER & KICKER. it just doesn't hold true. it's not like it hasn't been tried 100's of time before.

post links? while there's a plethora if information about BB & PL in the internet, there's next to zilch on the sweet science of pugilism on the internet. if you want to learn to box don't expect to find shit on "how to"
on a web page. we lifters can take good info from here and use it in the weightroom, but a novice boxer isn't so lucky.

there's little crossover from Max strength due to weightclasses. there's 7-8 lbs. between weightclasses. you want to stay in your natural (not bulked) class. a "natural" 165lb Super middleweight will always be stronger (not weightroom strong) than a "bulked" Jr. Middle who put on 10lbs to move up in class. this is what i mean by all the "Max" strength and mucsle gain just doesn't cross over that well.

Roy Jones JR put on 20lbs.(muscle)
and kicked Ruiz asses... but this an extreme exception to the rule.
 
I think weight room strength does carry over in combat style sports. I have a good amount of strength do to the weight room. During judo, I can hang with guys that are naturally heavier then i am. Now if I didn't lift weights, I can guarantee that I would get destroyed quickly. Thats real world for ya
 
:confused: JUDO is not BOXING/KICK BOXING!

boxing is the art of striking.

judo you can the grab,throw & hold! it's closer to wrestling & grappling and no weight classes

IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ANIMAL :smash:
 
I am talking about strength. If you bothered to read a physiology book and learned the dynamics of a punch, how muscles are recruited to apply force and explosiveness you would probably have a better idea of how strength has lots of carry over. You know those people I listed? They have degrees in physiology related fields like sports science and kienseology.
Obviously the guy that sqats often will just be better at squating due to neurological adaptation, which has little to no carry over whatsover except to squating.

Anyhow- This topic is way off topic. He was wanting strength with little to no size gain. It was nothing about boxing except I used it as an example.

You can convince yourself all you want that strength has no carry over in any form of combat sport, or just not in boxing- it really doesn't matter. You can go box your heart out and be a weak ass pussy that will get his ass K'Oed by somebody that took some of the top strength trainers advice and implemented a weight lifting program into his routine when you didn't.

I provided links to people with way more knowledge on this subject than yourself, links you were too damn good to read, links which the guy I posted em for DID read. I guess I gave the more convincing argument and I am in no way interested in trying to convince you otherwise. It is like arguing with a creationist with a bible shoved up their ass- No amount of evidence will sway their OPINION, because they are not interested in even looking at the evidence.

Get over yourself. Untill you read my links, and provide an arugument against them, you're not worth responding to.
 
leatherface said:
This is for lots of strength and not really size. I was thinking maybe like 5 sets, 3 reps and 3-5 minutes rest(depending on what exercise)... followed by 2sets, 1 rep............I can't afford to gain too much more size in certain areas(due to kickboxing/martial arts).. Ok thanks alot, if you know anything about this please post!
Click to expand...

i don't see whats so off topic. :confused: he didn't say wrestling or judo....pal

i'll say again 1-3reps for max strength is waste of time for boxing/kickboxing

punching/kicking power has nothing to do with you MAX strength. it' a function of speed & technique. you won't find a link to any web page any where that will tell you that if you increase MAX (X)lift by (X)number of lb's you'll punch or kick harder. muscle mass doesn't have much to do with punching power.

true story ~ Chris Comier at (275lbs) had made some negative comments about Mike Tyson (who hasn't) . while at a club Chris said someone grabbed him behind the neck......turned around it was Mike.....Chris said he was so pissed off he wanted too pick up Mike and throw him across the room (he's strong enough to)...but wasn't that stupid "i'm not getting my ass knocked out"

people assume if you have BIG ASS muscles you can hit HARD!IT AIN'T SO.


it not like i'm behind the times, i've been try to get these coaches & youngsters to incorporated BANDS & CHAINS and OLYM lifts in the strength programs. it wasn't till they saw Kobe Bryant squatting with chains on a fvcking SPRITE commercial to give something new try.....then i say let me tell you about Louie Simmons/Dave Tate :p

with that i'm through with this worn out topic.
 
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH lol. I didn't mean to start a war here. I appreciate the posts and information provided from everyone. And it's not that im an amateur anything really, I was just curious how to gain more strength and less size...thats all. I'm not conerned with weight class's though anyhow. And Yes, I do do speed/agility/technique training as well as some cardio. It's not like I think im gonna hit the weights, finally bench 600 and think I can knock anyone out. :) Anyhow thanks alot you guys! All the 'positive' posts are appreciated!!!
 
Re: Re: Strength/nosize

R CRUSHER said:
punching/kicking power has nothing to do with you MAX strength. it' a function of speed & technique. you won't find a link to any web page any where that will tell you that if you increase MAX (X)lift by (X)number of lb's you'll punch or kick harder. muscle mass doesn't have much to do with punching power.
Click to expand...


Yes, punching or kicking power is speed and technique.

What is technique? Generally it is leverage, momemtum and such. Well, next comes the no brainer. Now, how do you move your arm? With your muscles of course. And the faster you move your arm the better, but how to move it faster? The more muscle fibers your body is able to recruit allows for more power to move your arm faster. It is basic fucking physics and a bit of physiology.

Again you bring up the pathetic analogy of comparing apples and oranges. As if that proves anything. Of course your buddy and idol Mike Tyson could kick the shit out of a bigger guy. The bigger guy is a BODYBUILDER, not a boxer. GEE, wonder why he backed down. (Your comparison is equally silly because we are not talking about BIG ASS muscles, we are talking about optimal strength with little to no size gains, in other words, NO BIG ASS MUSCLES)

Let me state this so it doesn't confuse you later- I am not saying some Joe blow with lots of strength can punch harder than somebody that is weaker that trains to punch or kick. That was so obvious to me, I figured you would have half a brain cell and figure that I was talking about people of comparable skills.

I have said enough- Obviously you ignore the fact that I have mentioned ballistic training, plyometrics, and other strength training methods, and stick to your little straw man argument that the only strength training I am talking about is bench presses, squats and formulas for carry over strength conversions.

Leatherface- Sorry about the war then- Good luck with your strength training. It is possible to gain strength without size, and you don't have to train conventially to do so. I'm done as well.

(
 
I like the way your name is all caps and his is all lower case...interesting use of symbolism.

Seriously, though. Shut the fuck up.....before ya get blasted on. Thanks. :D
 
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