Stop Recommending Testosterone To Newbies!

[Nelson Montana]

I can not get into splitting hairs. When I say test is WORST, I mean it's pure androgen, hence, the most suppressive. That's the proof. The proof that people ask for sometimes doesn't exist. There's no proof to the contrary so all we can do is speculate based on existing knowledge. To simply disagree and say "prove it" is a little silly.

As Digger might have said; "Say why you disagree. Present your side. Give your reasoning. But don't just cut down an idea because you don;t like it. Use logic to debate, not emotion or posturing "

Yeah, there are worse compounds. HEROIN would be a worse cycle. But come one bros. Cut some slack.

I did not say Primo was mast and proviron, the inference was that the results were similar as is the effects form the molecular structure. How technical do we have to get?

 

[the_alcatraz]

I think everyone here is missing the point. He's talking about suppression and trying to say on a safe side- if there really is one- that there are other alternatives that don't shut you down. He's basically trying to challenge us to open our minds and look into other alternatives to spare our HPTA.

Now, having said that- on the dbol issue- one question above was how long could you run it- well, on here I have seen recommendations that say not to exceed 8 weeks, but IMHO I'd never go longer than 6 weeks, and personally for me, not more than 4, just as I have bloodwork to show how bad the stuff is on the liver, and honestly, it'll be a long time before I hit the ole dbol again. That shit is just poison, IMO. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the shit out of some dbol, and if you could stay on it year round, I'd be there. But after the last two bloodwork panels and my internal medicine/hrt doc told me what it was doing to me, fuck that. Keep in mind that this is how I feel, I have kids and am almost 40, so I tend to err on the safe side.

Now, on to Primo and Var. Primo may not shut you down, but it's expensive as hell. Var will shut you down if you take enough to get anything out of it. And on winny, almost the same as dbol, it's really hard on you and IMO isn't as nearly safe as test. So, not disagreeing with you Nelson, as you know I have much respect, but safety becomes an issue with this as well. And low to moderate dose test will not affect your lipid panels, as bad, nor will it affect your liver. So, although it may shut you down, it seems safer due to the fact it doesn't hit the liver, and at low to moderate doses it doesn't affect the rest of you, and has less sides.

So, I ask this question, is safety more important? (In relation to the rest of your bodily functions), or is suppression? I know both are, but just trying to guide a little discussion, and I know you have a wealth of knowledge and experience. I also know that this started as an 'anti-suppression' thread, and have read all posts, but just for discussion, I think the comeback to your original post should have taken into account the other areas of the body that get affected by other compounds and why the risks of suppression outweigh the others. This thread has gotten to be an implied 'don't use test' thread, which is clearly not what you were saying.

No he's not bro.

The title of the thread AND the topic was not to give advice to noobs to take test only first cycles, and not about supression.

If it was about supression, then the topic title would be: what do you think is the most supressive steroid? even then, i doubt the answer would be "test"

 

[UA_Iron]

I can not get into splitting hairs. When I say test is WORST, I mean it's pure androgen, hence, the most suppressive. That's the proof. The proof that people ask for sometimes doesn't exist. There's no proof to the contrary so all we can do is speculate based on existing knowledge. To simply disagree and say "prove it" is a little silly.

As Digger might have said; "Say why you disagree. Present your side. Give your reasoning. But don't just cut down an idea because you don;t like it. Use logic to debate, not emotion or posturing "

Yeah, there are worse compounds. HEROIN would be a worse cycle. But come one bros. Cut some slack.

I did not say Primo was mast and proviron, the inference was that the results were similar as is the effects form the molecular structure. How technical do we have to get?

Thats how logic works, Nelson. If you make a claim you have to support and provide enough evidence to make your case. Its not other people's job to disprove something you said.

You have still failed to make a good case.

 

[J. Adams]

Thats how logic works, Nelson. If you make a claim you have to support and provide enough evidence to make your case. Its not other people's job to disprove something you said.

You have still failed to make a good case.

^^^

 

[Mr. dB]

So if shutting down your HPTA is bad for a first cycle, at what point in one's cycle experience does it become not so bad, or at least less of an unsurmountable obstacle?

 

[bsdgeek]

No he's not bro.

The title of the thread AND the topic was not to give advice to noobs to take test only first cycles, and not about supression.

If it was about supression, then the topic title would be: what do you think is the most supressive steroid? even then, i doubt the answer would be "test"

bro, re-read his first post, this thread has taken a fork in the road that's way off track. if you want to challenge him, ask about how the other compounds affect you, don't get stuck on the test thing, it's obvious you love the T, as do i, and honestly, i'll include it in every cycle, and it's part of my life now as i'm on hrt, but that's not how to disprove a theory. we have to weigh other risks associated with other compounds, and the availability and price of some. this makes the conversation more manageable. primo for some is just not an option. and var, when taking too high of a dose will shut you down too, other compounds have nastier sides. this is the way this thread needs to look. if you want to debate with Nelson, debate. we need to base it on facts that we have, like Tat and Nelson have said, there's very little research to back most of what we do, so we have to go on experience, and let me just add, Nelson has way more experience in this gig than most of us. i'm not saying i always agree with him, and in the past, that has bitten me once or twice, and i'll admit having sent a couple of pm's to him admitting how he was right. just keep this in mind when we're debating in a public forum. experience will always trump theory.

 

[the_alcatraz]

bro, re-read his first post, this thread has taken a fork in the road that's way off track. if you want to challenge him, ask about how the other compounds affect you, don't get stuck on the test thing, it's obvious you love the T, as do i, and honestly, i'll include it in every cycle, and it's part of my life now as i'm on hrt, but that's not how to disprove a theory. we have to weigh other risks associated with other compounds, and the availability and price of some. this makes the conversation more manageable. primo for some is just not an option. and var, when taking too high of a dose will shut you down too, other compounds have nastier sides. this is the way this thread needs to look. if you want to debate with Nelson, debate. we need to base it on facts that we have, like Tat and Nelson have said, there's very little research to back most of what we do, so we have to go on experience, and let me just add, Nelson has way more experience in this gig than most of us. i'm not saying i always agree with him, and in the past, that has bitten me once or twice, and i'll admit having sent a couple of pm's to him admitting how he was right. just keep this in mind when we're debating in a public forum. experience will always trump theory.

I just re-read the entire thread. It is about test bro lol

Until he answered my post with the whole "suppression" business it was about.....and anyone who reads the title will just talk about test....it's the logical thing to say to an "illegical and cotroversial" statement

 

[J. Adams]

I can not get into splitting hairs. When I say test is WORST, I mean it's pure androgen, hence, the most suppressive. That's the proof. ?

This is what got you in trouble in this thread.

Testosterone is ONLY used as the therapuetic index. Basically test = 100. (Both for the androgenic and anabolic properties)

There are many compounds with an androgenic ratio greater than 1.

i.e. Trenbolone is a far stronger androgen then test, and therefore will be far more suppresive for your HPTA.

 

[bsdgeek]

I just re-read the entire thread. It is about test bro lol

Until he answered my post with the whole "suppression" business it was about.....and anyone who reads the title will just talk about test....it's the logical thing to say to an "illegical and cotroversial" statement

yep, but the thread took a turn for the wrong. i'd personally like to know which and why, instead of why he's saying that about test. see what i mean? what does he recommend? dbol? that shit is hard on the liver, even at 30 mg's/day. primo? common, there's only a few of us on here that can really afford it, and if i'm spending that kind of cash, fuck it, i'm buying hgh- which doesn't suppress you, and there's medical evidence to prove that.(and don't ask me to prove it, if you want to know, look it up yourself- not intended for you alcatraz, just the other noobs). and var at anything above 35 - 40 mgs /day will suppress too. so, now we have dht based compounds, which a lot of us don't want to use due to the sides. so, now where do we go? that's all i'm saying my brotha. and one more, nandrolones? without test? i'm sorry, but i like to fuck. lol

 

[khemix]

I typically agree with Nelly, but not on this. At all.

I wouldn't have gained 30lbs on my first cycle and kept 25 of it off of primo and var. I dont disagree that its a good idea to test the waters tho. The people that aren't afraid, or a little less conservative than you, would like to take full advantage of that first cycle.

My first cycle was 400mg/test e and 25mg/dbol. The only side effect I had was bloat. I'll take my bloat and 25lbs over primo and var any day. Not to mention the $500 that I'll save.

Either way, typically no matter what the compound, when on cycle our natural test production shuts down. This includes dbol and primo. There are different degrees, but shut down is shut down. So if I'm gonna shut myself down and be stupid enough to take steroids...i think i'll do everything i can to take full advantage. And dont say I'm being unhealthy, i get bloodwork done and am im perfect health.

I can not get into splitting hairs. When I say test is WORST, I mean it's pure androgen, hence, the most suppressive. That's the proof. ?

Shame on you Nelly. You should know that Trenbolone is ATLEAST 2-3 times more androgenic than testosterone.

So no, test definanttly ISN'T the most androgenic nor suppressive.

Damn Nelly, i think you're just trying to stir the shit with this one man.