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Roe v. Wade for Men

velvett

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Discuss....

NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.

'This is so politically incorrect'
Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."
 
I agree with this arguement 100%.

I believe that no man has the right to have a woman bear a child that she does not want.

I also believe that if the woman wants a child that the man does not, then she should bear ALL responsibility for that choice.

Her body - Her choice.

If she can intelligently decide to keep a baby then she can intelligently decide to support that baby.
 
I agree. (Whaa? :D)

If she chooses to have the child and he doesn't, then she makes the ultimate decision and pay for all consequences.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
I agree with this arguement 100%.

I believe that no man has the right to have a woman bear a child that she does not want.

I also believe that if the woman wants a child that the man does not, then she should bear ALL responsibility for that choice.

Her body - Her choice.

If she can intelligently decide to keep a baby then she can intelligently decide to support that baby.
I'm in absolute agreement with what Bikinimom said so eloquently here, and IMO anybody who is in favor of women having the right to choose would be a hypocrite to say otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, women have a lot of options (and may that situation never change), and as much as I hate to admit it, there are some conniving bitches that aren't above abusing the system ... maybe some kids would get to avoid being used as a lever because mommy thought twice about how easy it really was going to be to pass go and collect on that baby daddy money.

I'm sorry. Just because a woman gives birth doesn't make her some automatic Earth Mother, just like the noncustodial father is not automatically an unconcerned, in arrears asshole.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
I agree with this arguement 100%.

I believe that no man has the right to have a woman bear a child that she does not want.

I also believe that if the woman wants a child that the man does not, then she should bear ALL responsibility for that choice.

Her body - Her choice.

If she can intelligently decide to keep a baby then she can intelligently decide to support that baby.

Well said.

I have a question, does the father's name have to be on the birth certificate? Can he say no or have it removed?
 
the issue of what is best for society is the key for sure in this. I would have a strong opinion on this if I ever got laid.
 
Where's da tits?
 
I'd even settle for if the guy didn't want the baby, he'd get a 50% break on child support. Even that is a step in the right direction.

Also, the courts should look into the contraception methods used and the length of the relationship.
 
nycgirl said:
Well said.

I have a question, does the father's name have to be on the birth certificate? Can he say no or have it removed?
You can probably have it removed if you get a DNA test that proves you aren't the father.

It's possible for a birth certificate to read Unknown in either or both parental name spaces ...

A birth certificate is first and formost, identification that the individual is a legal citizen of the United States, having been born within its borders.
 
velvett said:
Discuss....

NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.


I'm not sure how "financial responsibity" can equate to "reproductive rights" in this young man's case nor do I understand how choosing whether or not a fertilized egg will be given the opportunity to be born into the world to equate to choosing whether or not one chooses to be financial responsible for this unborn life.

To me Roe vs Wade for men would be for the conditions in which a man is not informed of conception and that potential offspring was terminated without his input. Or rather his input was given to terminate and the mother chose to keep the child without his knowledge and later came to him for child support.

That said, if you are adult enough to have sex you best be adult enough to accept that people will lie, that you need to be more responsible than the person you're having sex with and suck it up when you fuck up or in some cases accept the gift you have been given in this life.

All I see from this is 25 year old pissed that he has a kid to pay for and bunch people taking this opportunity to bridge their own agenda through this young man.
 
musclemom said:
You can probably have it removed if you get a DNA test that proves you aren't the father.

It's possible for a birth certificate to read Unknown in either or both parental name spaces ...

A birth certificate is first and formost, identification that the individual is a legal citizen of the United States, having been born within its borders.

Yes, but if the father doesn't want the mother to have the child. Should his name be put on the certificate?? Does it have to be there?
 
velvett said:
I'm not sure how "financial responsibity" can equate to "reproductive rights" in this young man's case nor do I understand how choosing whether or not a fertilized egg will be given the opportunity to be born into the world to equate to choosing whether or not one chooses to be financial responsible for this unborn life.

To me Roe vs Wade for men would be for the conditions in which a man is not informed of conception and that potential offspring was terminated without his input. Or rather his input was given to terminate and the mother chose to keep the child without his knowledge and later came to him for child support.

That said, if you are adult enough to have sex you best be adult enough to accept that people will lie, that you need to be more responsible than the person you're having sex with and suck it up when you fuck up or in some cases accept the gift you have been given in this life.

All I see from this is 25 year old pissed that he has a kid to pay for and bunch people taking this opportunity to bridge their own agenda through this young man.

This is the "If the guy doesn't want financial responsibility he should just keep his dick in his pants" argument.

Let's try a slightly different scenario... something sexual but non-reproductive. Let's say a guy is HIV-positive, but chooses to not tell his partners. Isn't it reasonable for a woman to assume that anytime she's having sex, she knows to use protection anyway? And, if the man gives the unknowing female HIV, should he bear any financial or criminal responsibility? I mean... doesn't the woman know the risks of sex in general? Should we just say "hey, you should have held a quarter between your knees instead."?
 
Still no tits. I don't know why I stick around this place.
 
God. I agree with the financial responsibility part, but who could have a part of them walk around and just say "fuck it, I didn't want it" ?

Wow. Maybe it's because I'm thinking of being a dad, but damn.

Bitches man.... bitches. And doods.
 
nycgirl said:
Yes, but if the father doesn't want the mother to have the child. Should his name be put on the certificate?? Does it have to be there?
Interesting questions. The parents sign the birth certificate, so if the father disputes the child then obviously he can refuse to sign the document and if he doesn't sign, then no name is listed for father but beyond that ??? it's a question for a family court specialist. As regarding getting his name removed because he never wanted the child ... hmm, interesting. Not wanting to be a parent, not being interested in participating in the childs life versus the fact of being the biological father are two different things.
 
musclemom said:
Interesting questions. The parents sign the birth certificate, so if the father disputes the child then obviously he can refuse to sign the document and if he doesn't sign, then no name is listed for father but beyond that ??? it's a question for a family court specialist. As regarding getting his name removed because he never wanted the child ... hmm, interesting. Not wanting to be a parent, not being interested in participating in the childs life versus the fact of being the biological father are two different things.

Yes, it is. That's why I asked. I've heard stories of girls doing that on PURPOSE. Or, the flipside, they will leave him off on PURPOSE and the baby will have her name so they can get welfare and food stamps, etc. :rolleyes:
 
jnevin said:
God. I agree with the financial responsibility part, but who could have a part of them walk around and just say "fuck it, I didn't want it" ?

Wow. Maybe it's because I'm thinking of being a dad, but damn.

Bitches man.... bitches. And doods.


that's the way my ex and I thought about it. Sure some of it was because we were only 16 at the time but we both said to each other that we didn't want any fucking kids. So, we didn't
 
jnevin said:
God. I agree with the financial responsibility part, but who could have a part of them walk around and just say "fuck it, I didn't want it" ?

Wow. Maybe it's because I'm thinking of being a dad, but damn.

Bitches man.... bitches. And doods.

OH, there are people out there like that. They won't give a damn either way.
 
mrplunkey said:
This is the "If the guy doesn't want financial responsibility he should just keep his dick in his pants" argument.

Let's try a slightly different scenario... something sexual but non-reproductive. Let's say a guy is HIV-positive, but chooses to not tell his partners. Isn't it reasonable for a woman to assume that anytime she's having sex, she knows to use protection anyway? And, if the man gives the unknowing female HIV, should he bear any financial or criminal responsibility? I mean... doesn't the woman know the risks of sex in general? Should we just say "hey, you should have held a quarter between your knees instead."?

No, of course not - there was no malicious intent.

It's not a man or woman thing it's a responsibilty thing and anything that is sexual IS about reproductive sex organs.

I am also of the belief that woman should assume the responsibilty of not getting herself pregnant as it is her body that will carry a child and men should be more concerned about how they will father this child, mentor this child and see to it that this child has a life better than his own rather than if he'll "get stuck" paying child support.

Finances does not equate fatherhood.
 
Interesting. If the woman chooses to keep the child and the man has to pay support, the man should get joint custody if he wants it and noone should pay child support.
 
biteme said:
Interesting. If the woman chooses to keep the child and the man has to pay support, the man should get joint custody if he wants it and noone should pay child support.

Are you saying there are times when the mother will have sole custody and the father is required to pay support even though he rarely (if ever) sees the child?
 
biteme said:
Interesting. If the woman chooses to keep the child and the man has to pay support, the man should get joint custody if he wants it and noone should pay child support.

Well, that's the real issue right now.

A random hook-up happens... the woman says "it's ok, i'm on the pill". Then she gets pregnant. Unless the guy can convince a judge that he's ready to go all-in financially and with his time, he's not going to get anything *close* to joint custody. Furthermore, he's looking at monthly child support payments.

I personally think if a guy wants to co-parent, he should be allowed to with a 50/50 time allotment.

If the guy wants to end the pregancy but the woman wants to have it anyway, he should have a reduced (i.e. 50%) child support payment.

For guys who want the kid... but don't have the time or resources to do full-blown co-parenting, they should pay the normal child support.
 
nycgirl said:
Are you saying there are times when the mother will have sole custody and the father is required to pay support even though he rarely (if ever) sees the child?

I didn't address that. I need to think about this real hard before giving a response. My gut response is no. If the man doesn't want the child but the woman does, then she can pay to raise the child or vice versa.
 
biteme said:
I didn't address that. I need to think about this real hard before giving a response. My gut response is no. If the man doesn't want the child but the woman does, then she can pay to raise the child or vice versa.

No, no, I'm asking a question. I don't understand how this works.
 
biteme said:
Interesting. If the woman chooses to keep the child and the man has to pay support, the man should get joint custody if he wants it and noone should pay child support.

The article doesn't say that.

This article is not about a man getting full custody of an infant and who then is responsible for child support - that would be decided in conjunction with custody.
 
nycgirl said:
No, no, I'm asking a question. I don't understand how this works.

I don't understand either. We are failing to communicate effectively :worried:
 
EH?

Custody of a child bears the responsibilty of raising, feeding, babysitting (yeah I've actually heard fathers referring to being with their child as "babysitting") and those responsibilties often come with a direct or indirect price tag.

If a parent chooses not to be in the day to day life of said child they are still responsible for the childs needs.

This article suggests that a man should have the option to choose not to be a parent (after getting pregnant) like a woman can choose whether or not she will carry the child to term.
 
If something like this were to go through, then there would have to be some kind of non-consent form that the father would have to sign to divorce himself from the pregnancy. You can't just have some dude changing his mind after the fact to get out of child support payments.
 
Mr. dB said:
If something like this were to go through, then there would have to be some kind of non-consent form that the father would have to sign to divorce himself from the pregnancy. You can't just have some dude changing his mind after the fact to get out of child support payments.

You'd almost have to do that BEFORE you have sex.
 
Too many women trap men on purpose. I agree with the men.
 
nycgirl said:
Have a stack of them on the dresser. If I was a man, I would. For sure.

It's sad to consider tha it's harder to pull out a rubber than it is to pull out a pen and take on two signature on a piece of paper.
 
biteme said:
Too many women trap men on purpose. I agree with the men.


It's the oldest scam ever - and men fall for it.

It's half your responsibilty to be smart enough not to be "had".

Wear a condom.
 
velvett said:
It's the oldest scam ever - and men fall for it.

It's half your responsibilty to be smart enough not to be "had".

Wear a condom.

I don't have to worry about it. ;) Natural birth control here.
 
No woman should have to go through an unwanted pregnancy.

No man should have to support a child he never wanted to father.

No child should be born unwanted, conceived as a source of reliable income for 18 years.

HOW THE FUCK does an issue like this get resolved?

Stone people who fornicate? Burn adulterers alive? Brand women who are found in the marriage bed to not be virgins? That's how other countries solved it.

Abolish abortion so women are less likely to screw, or at least to be more conscientious about birth control, yeah, like that worked in the 50s and 60s! It's a breeze to cross the border to Mexico, shit, they'll start selling home abortion kits on g'damn Ebay and I'll bet if you really try you'll still be able to get RU-485 over the internet from Tailand if you try.

Well, then there's the futurists concept of conception ... no babies are born that aren't conceived in a peitry dish in a lab after both parents are quite thoroughly tested for hereditary diseases, genetic flaws, and antigen compatibility ...

Actually the last one has some merit :rolleyes:
 
velvett said:
It's sad to consider tha it's harder to pull out a rubber than it is to pull out a pen and take on two signature on a piece of paper.

rubbers are not 100%. A well written contract makes up the difference.
 
Biteme,

You daughter "accidently" (snicker) gets pregnant - her lover says sorry honey the condom broke it's not my problem you're on your own.

Ouuuuu or better - he says "how do I know it's mine?"

Better save some money to pay for your grandkid.
 
nycgirl said:
rubbers are not 100%. A well written contract makes up the difference.

All contracts are breakable.


I don't understand why people can't just be responsible enough not to get pregnant and if there was a real accident like birthcontrol failure to just accept responsibility.
 
musclemom said:
No woman should have to go through an unwanted pregnancy.

No man should have to support a child he never wanted to father.

No child should be born unwanted, conceived as a source of reliable income for 18 years.

HOW THE FUCK does an issue like this get resolved?

Stone people who fornicate? Burn adulterers alive? Brand women who are found in the marriage bed to not be virgins? That's how other countries solved it.

Abolish abortion so women are less likely to screw, or at least to be more conscientious about birth control, yeah, like that worked in the 50s and 60s! It's a breeze to cross the border to Mexico, shit, they'll start selling home abortion kits on g'damn Ebay and I'll bet if you really try you'll still be able to get RU-485 over the internet from Tailand if you try.

Well, then there's the futurists concept of conception ... no babies are born that aren't conceived in a peitry dish in a lab after both parents are quite thoroughly tested for hereditary diseases, genetic flaws, and antigen compatibility ...

Actually the last one has some merit :rolleyes:

:verygood:

How about "no sex before marriage"...




















:FRlol: sorry, I couldn't help myself.
 
velvett said:
Biteme,

You daughter "accidently" (snicker) gets pregnant - her lover says sorry honey the condom broke it's not my problem you're on your own.

Ouuuuu or better - he says "how do I know it's mine?"

Better save some money to pay for your grandkid.

Tough choices. We all were highly disappointed when my young niece got pregnant. She can't even hold a job. But that baby boy is the greatest thing in the world. I don't see it as a mistake now.
 
biteme said:
Tough choices. We all were highly disappointed when my young niece got pregnant. She can't even hold a job. But that baby boy is the greatest thing in the world. I don't see it as a mistake now.


Who pays for the kid?
 
velvett said:
All contracts are breakable.


I don't understand why people can't just be responsible enough not to get pregnant and if there was a real accident like birthcontrol failure to just accept responsibility.

I don't understand it either. Shit happens. Whatever your decision will be, admit you messed up & take responsibility. And, for gods sake, learn from it and don't let it happen again.
 
velvett said:
Who pays for the kid?

If she decides to have the child and he doesn't want it, we do.
 
nycgirl said:
I don't understand it either. Shit happens. Whatever your decision will be, admit you messed up & take responsibility. And, for gods sake, learn from it and don't let it happen again.

:artist:
Agreed.

I feel bad for the guys that get suckered - even married guys get surprised with the "I'm pregnant honey" the pill must have failed - when they hadn't been taking their pill.

Men also need to realize that if they don't want a child they need to bear the burden of making all attempts in not creating one.

If an accident still happens - well then be damned that life might just hold more value than your own.
 
velvett said:
No your neice.

She's living with the guy now. I don't like him, but he's young. He may grow up yet.
 
velvett said:
:artist:
Agreed.

I feel bad for the guys that get suckered - even married guys get surprised with the "I'm pregnant honey" the pill must have failed - when they hadn't been taking their pill.

Men also need to realize that if they don't want a child they need to bear the burden of making all attempts in not creating one.

If an accident still happens - well then be damned that life might just hold more value than your own.


Yes, sexual responsibility goes both ways.

What I don't understand, is how come couples (LTRs) don't discuss this? How come both of them are not involved in the "planned parent/unparenthood" situation?

Yes, when the accident happens, that's when you find out.
 
nycgirl said:
I swear, the more I learn, the more I understand the attitudes toward women.

Yes, sexual responsibility goes both ways.

What I don't understand, is how come couples (LTRs) don't discuss this? How come both of them are not involved in the "planned parent/unparenthood" situation?

Yes, when the accident happens, that's when you find out.


well, if a guy doesnt want a girl getting pregnant, he should pull out no matter what kind of birth control they are using (condom, pill, IUD....). If an accident still happens - now that is a real accident.
 
velvett said:
:artist:
Agreed.

I feel bad for the guys that get suckered - even married guys get surprised with the "I'm pregnant honey" the pill must have failed - when they hadn't been taking their pill.

Men also need to realize that if they don't want a child they need to bear the burden of making all attempts in not creating one.

If an accident still happens - well then be damned that life might just hold more value than your own.
Nahh. Just as expendable.
 
It's called being responsible. That's what is suppose to separate the adults from the children. I'm thinking that most adults know how babies are made, and if you're not ready for a living part of you walking around, and having the guts to help raise that child then maybe you need to stick to watching porn on the net, and jacking off, or invest in birth control.

People never stop amazing me. Nobody is responsible for anything.
 
big4life said:
It's called being responsible. That's what is suppose to separate the adults from the children. I'm thinking that most adults know how babies are made, and if you're not ready for a living part of you walking around, and having the guts to help raise that child then maybe you need to stick to watching porn on the net, and jacking off, or invest in birth control.

People never stop amazing me. Nobody is responsible for anything.

Lack of tact. That AMAZES me.
 
nycgirl said:
Lack of tact. That AMAZES me.


Nope, just tired of people looking for the easy way out. It's called being an adult. People need to realize that there are consequences to their actions. That goes for the man and the woman.
 
This guy is an asshole, now the kid grows up knowing about this case. He made a kid, he pays period. Its not the child's fault that there wasnt a meeting of the minds with the parents of why they chose to engage in sexual activity that lead to the child's creation.

It does not matter if he wants it or not, he has a child now, he pays
 
So basically, you're saying that the kid is always more important then the parent (ie the parent pays)?

1) You're assuming that the child support always ACTUALLY goes to the child.
2) I disagree. I think that both are equally expendable.
 
BrothaBill said:
This guy is an asshole, now the kid grows up knowing about this case. He made a kid, he pays period. Its not the child's fault that there wasnt a meeting of the minds with the parents of why they chose to engage in sexual activity that lead to the child's creation.

It does not matter if he wants it or not, he has a child now, he pays

Absolutely agree with you on this one. He had sex knowing that he woman may fall pregnant therefore he took a risk now he has to pay. I feel sorry for the child having a father like that.
 
EnderJE said:
So basically, you're saying that the kid is always more important then the parent (ie the parent pays)?

1) You're assuming that the child support always ACTUALLY goes to the child.
2) I disagree. I think that both are equally expendable.



Yes, the child is ALWAYS more important. The child is the only innocent one in a situation like this.

As for where the child support goes, that is once again an adult problem, and falls under being responsible, being an adult.
 
big4life said:
Yes, the child is ALWAYS more important. The child is the only innocent one in a situation like this.

As for where the child support goes, that is once again an adult problem, and falls under being responsible, being an adult.
Sorry you feel that way. I disagree.

I believe that if a person always makes the child more important (and neglects themselves), they'll grow to hate the child eventually and the whole thing will backlash.
 
EnderJE said:
1) You're assuming that the child support always ACTUALLY goes to the child.

Well most laws are based on theory of proper practice not actual practice.

I think it's safe to say we all know at least one person that spends their child's monetary support on themselves or better yet their boyfriend, girlfriend or drug habit.
 
Wow, do I love safe sex even 1000 times more after reading this.
 
EnderJE said:
Sorry you feel that way. I disagree.

I believe that if a person always makes the child more important (and neglects themselves), they'll grow to hate the child eventually and the whole thing will backlash.


When it comes to making sure that the child you create is taken care of, absolutely the child comes first. I never said anything about neglecting yourself. Everyone should do everything possible to make themselves happy, but when you create a child your priorities should change.

This is about a man who fathered a child and now wants to avoid any responsibility for his actions. People don't have to worry about him resenting this child, he wants to pretend the child doesn't exist, and that's insane.
 
Given the amount of babies at adoption centers and third world countries, I think that we should all be sterilized <sp> as soon as possible. Then, we're all free to slut it up.
:D
 
I don't think that anybody, male or female, should be forced to bear the responsibility of a child they never wanted. The worst feeling on earth is knowing your parent doesn't give two shits about you.

Is a male Roe v. Wade the answer??? Maybe Ender is right, mass sterilization and pietry dishes for a select few that pass the intelligence, emotional, physical and genetic testing ...

Frankly I've always thought you should have to pass an I.Q. test in order to breed anyway ...
 
musclemom said:
I don't think that anybody, male or female, should be forced to bear the responsibility of a child they never wanted. The worst feeling on earth is knowing your parent doesn't give two shits about you.

Is a male Roe v. Wade the answer??? Maybe Ender is right, mass sterilization and pietry dishes for a select few that pass the intelligence, emotional, physical and genetic testing ...

Frankly I've always thought you should have to pass an I.Q. test in order to breed anyway ...


I agree, nobody should be forced to take on the parenting duties of raising a child, but they should be required to face the financial responsibilities for that child. It might make them think twice, or at least it will remind them every time they write that check.
 
musclemom said:
I don't think that anybody, male or female, should be forced to bear the responsibility of a child they never wanted. The worst feeling on earth is knowing your parent doesn't give two shits about you.

Is a male Roe v. Wade the answer??? Maybe Ender is right, mass sterilization and pietry dishes for a select few that pass the intelligence, emotional, physical and genetic testing ...

Frankly I've always thought you should have to pass an I.Q. test in order to breed anyway ...
holy crap...sig worthy...:D
 
If a man doesnt want to have a child and the woman does, than the man BETTER have put a condom on when they did it! Its not fair to the woman if she gets pregnant and then the man doesnt want to have it. He had a choice BEFORE he had sex. After the fact, its the womans choice. IMO.
 
EnderJE said:
Given the amount of babies at adoption centers and third world countries, I think that we should all be sterilized <sp> as soon as possible. Then, we're all free to slut it up.
:D


I won't mention the hypocrisy implied in sterilizing those who can care for children while letting the world's poorest keep breeding unchecked.

This isn't a thinking thread anyway
 
velvett said:
I'm not sure how "financial responsibity" can equate to "reproductive rights" in this young man's case nor do I understand how choosing whether or not a fertilized egg will be given the opportunity to be born into the world to equate to choosing whether or not one chooses to be financial responsible for this unborn life.

To me Roe vs Wade for men would be for the conditions in which a man is not informed of conception and that potential offspring was terminated without his input. Or rather his input was given to terminate and the mother chose to keep the child without his knowledge and later came to him for child support.

That said, if you are adult enough to have sex you best be adult enough to accept that people will lie, that you need to be more responsible than the person you're having sex with and suck it up when you fuck up or in some cases accept the gift you have been given in this life.

All I see from this is 25 year old pissed that he has a kid to pay for and bunch people taking this opportunity to bridge their own agenda through this young man.



That argument does not reconcile for someone who supports abortion.

If a woman doesn't want a kid, she shouldn't let guys stick their dicks in her vagina.

If, based upon the argument that "It's her body," a woman gets to decide whether or not to have the child, than a man should be given the same
option.

9 months of pregnancy is nothing compared to 50% of 18 years of your physical and mental labor. Especially when the woman's spending habits are dubious.

(Although I can't imagine personally just ignoring the kid.)
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
I won't mention the hypocrisy implied in sterilizing those who can care for children while letting the world's poorest keep breeding unchecked.

This isn't a thinking thread anyway
1) Thank god for that.
2) No, it isn't. It's one of those emotional ones. Next up, PeTA, abortion, religion and politics.
 
AristotleBC said:
That argument does not reconcile for someone who supports abortion.

If a woman doesn't want a kid, she shouldn't let guys stick their dicks in her vagina.

If, based upon the argument that "It's her body," a woman gets to decide whether or not to have the child, than a man should be given the same
option.

9 months of pregnancy is nothing compared to 50% of 18 years of your physical and mental labor. Especially when the woman's spending habits are dubious.

(Although I can't imagine personally just ignoring the kid.)

I'm pro choice.
Go figure.

Your statement in theory goes both ways - if a woman doesn't want a child she should not have sex with a man and similarly a man should not have sex with a woman if he does want to have a child.

I find the argument that Mel Feit presents to be flawed - to choose whether of not you want the burden of childbirth does not equate with financial burden. In addition, child support is not the same as full financial burden; the woman has the responsibility of being the incubator, the care giver and the bank roll while the man just has to throw some money at "his problem".

To suggest that the only burden a man, a father has to a child is solely financial is detrimental to put into place as a tangible concept. It just supports the idea that women should only be good for breeding and child rearing and that the man's sole role in parenting is to be the bread winner.

Now had this idea been presented in a different manner and Feit's organization had found a more suitable plaintiff with a better case, a case that does not suggest a disgruntled 20 something that didn’t have the sense to use birth control and found himself as a financially responsible as a daddy I could see where this case would be worthy of listening to. I can only assume that his ex-girlfriend did not have any documented medical history to support her claim of being unable to reproduce, otherwise, I don’t understand the direction of this case. If she lied and she truly did not have the condition she stated nor any medical documentation to support it she did then knowingly or unknowingly entrap this man and by that action I agree that it is not fair to propose such financial burden upon him but we don’t need a “man’s Roe vs. Wade” to come to that conclusion.

As personal belief I think people should be responsible for their own bodies and as a female faced with making a conscience decision where sex is involved and since I’ve not wanted children I would do everything in my power not to get pregnant. The irony is that 2 or so years ago my GYN said that it would be most unlikely that I would conceive a child which was fine by me after I got used to the idea of making a choice had been taken away. Even with that knowledge I still do everything in my power to guarantee that there are no accidents, why, because you just don't know what can happen.
 
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Pro-life vs pro-choice. I have always hated those names. So, general, no emotion.

How about the "baby killers" vs "the kids from rapists / incest"?

Much more flava.
 
EnderJE said:
Pro-life vs pro-choice. I have always hated those names. So, general, no emotion.

They are poor statements, they suggest that life is a moral decision and choice is a life decision which of course is most confusing.
 
velvett said:
They are poor statements, they suggest that life is a moral decision and choice is a life decision which of course is most confusing.
I still like mine better. :D

Now, let me tell you about PeTA or "the people who will crucify people in order to save animals instead".

I love it when they blow up research facilities. I waiting for the day when the tables are turned and both sides play by the same rules.
 
EnderJE said:
I still like mine better. :D

Now, let me tell you about PeTA or "the people who will crucify people in order to save animals instead".

I love it when they blow up research facilities. I waiting for the day when the tables are turned and both sides play by the same rules.

:FRlol:

Don't get me started on PETA members that wear real leather shoes or own leather purses or wallets.
 
velvett said:
:FRlol:

Don't get me started on PETA members that wear real leather shoes or own leather purses or wallets.
Jesus those PETA fuckers and their ilk make me want to puke (and they gacked me out when I was a vegetarian, too).

I love animals, I really mean that, I love my furballs like they are my kids, and I have done rescue and educational work for a couple different animal species ... and I have seen and read the horrid results of human cruelty ... but you get some of these goofy vegan PETA freaks ... do you know some of these dumb bastards feed their DOGS AND CATS vegetarian diets??? And then they can't understand why their animals suffer from chronic health problems?
 
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