Post Workout Shake?

[Murman]

Protein shake at least (w/ glutamine and creatine) post-workout.
Here is what i'm looking to find out, I have my Post-workout Shake a 1/2 hour before my workout. Is this to early or is it to late?

I would like to Thank you all for your help in my post's and because of your great info i'm lose body fat like crazy. An i feel great will doing it, keep up the great work.

 

[Big Country 056]

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but POST in post workout means AFTER.
So, yes, this would be too early, since before your workout would be a PRE workout shake.
A post-worout shake should occur after the workout and include some simple carbs for glycogen replinishment, unless you're on a keto diet...

 

[Mr.X]

Yes, I'll echo some info again:

Post workout needs to be within 20min AFTER the workout... Yes, it's a good idea to have a pre-workout (before) shake (some whey + some high-gi carbs) to fuel your workout. Yet, I personally never have pre-workout shakes, I just have my post-workout shakes, unless I do a TKD.

Mr.X

 

[Big Country 056]

Toal agreement here, X. I perform much better on an empty stomach.

 

[Hoffmeister]

This study seems to show that protein synthesis is greater when a pre-workout meal is used:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/2/E197

 

[The mann]

i also workout better on empty stomach.i have a shake at1:30 and take eca at 3:00 andhit wights at 3:30,then i take a shake after,then i have my last meal of the day2 hrs after that.........just my 2 pennies worth

 

[Murman]

Thanks guys i never even cluded into the post or pre.

Big Country 056 any reply to my post is helpful, so i wouldn't feel you were trying to be a smart ass LOL.But i feel like an ass for not catching the PRE or POST LOL.

 

[Mr.X]

Dear Hoffmeister,

I looked at the study that you posted:

L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials.

So, you see the concentration is the same in both pre and post workout trials. (~130%)

I think this study is totally vague and says nothing. I can, at the same time, make up some study and say it's real. My friend, they show NO significant information, i.e. persons stats, amounts of carbs pre-post workout, insulin sensitivity in subjects, type of training...etc. etc. etc. I can go on and on. This study is just too tentative to actually prove anyting at all.

Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Mr X:

I may be wrong, but I believe the 130% referred to was to establish that immediately following both drinks, the concentrations were the same.

The point of the study seems to be that the net uptake was significantly greater when the drink was taken pre-workout than when taken post-workout.

 

[Mr.X]

Hoffmeister,

I see this as a point for people to agree to disagree.

When we look at the past studies and some basic human phisiology, we can see clearly that Amino Acids + Carbs will, in fact, provide a state of anabolism instead of catabolism during a prolonged workout, yet the KEY word here is PROLONGED. For, when a 45min-1hr workout is utilized on an empty stomach, then not only will maximum fat-loss occur, but also more IGF-1 and Growth Hormone will be released into the body. Thus, when compared to the infusion of AA that happens from pre-workout drink, empty stomach workouts + post-workout nutrition is much more important. You can see why, simply: AA infusion is NOT nearly as significant as IGF-1, GH, Test infusion. I hope you grasp the concept of this idea.

Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Hoffmeister,

I see this as a point for people to agree to disagree.

When we look at the past studies and some basic human phisiology, we can see clearly that Amino Acids + Carbs will, in fact, provide a state of anabolism instead of catabolism during a prolonged workout, yet the KEY word here is PROLONGED. For, when a 45min-1hr workout is utilized on an empty stomach, then not only will maximum fat-loss occur, but also more IGF-1 and Growth Hormone will be released into the body. Thus, when compared to the infusion of AA that happens from pre-workout drink, empty stomach workouts + post-workout nutrition is much more important. You can see why, simply: AA infusion is NOT nearly as significant as IGF-1, GH, Test infusion. I hope you grasp the concept of this idea.

Mr.X

OK, I agree (to disagree??)

Personally, this hasn't stopped me from taking a postworkout shake. It did get me to add a meal of oatmeal/whey about an hour before my workout.

My own opinion is that the fat-burning effects of working out on an empty stomach are neglibible, at best. The difference just isn't that large when compared to overall calorie totals, which is also why I think using intervals for cardio is far better than the typical "fat-burning zone" cardio. I think I've also seen pretty good evidence that transient increases in GH really have a negligible effect as well.

Anyway, just some food for thought (pun intended).

 

[Mr.X]

Hoffmeister:

Personally, this hasn't stopped me from taking a postworkout shake. It did get me to add a meal of oatmeal/whey about an hour before my workout.

Taking oatmeal 1 hour before workout is NOT doing it on an empty stomach, and factually, using WHEY that digests in around 1.5 hours is not a good idea.

My own opinion is that the fat-burning effects of working out on an empty stomach are neglibible, at best.

NOT true at all, if you see the information about the release of all different fat-burning hormones while working out on an empty stomach, hence why I brought up GH, IGF-1 etc...

The difference just isn't that large when compared to overall calorie totals, which is also why I think using intervals for cardio is far better than the typical "fat-burning zone" cardio.

What is your definition of intervals for cardio? Also, "fat-burning-zone" cardio?

I think I've also seen pretty good evidence that transient increases in GH really have a negligible effect as well.

AGAIN a false statement, you have to see that the liver shuts down the pentose pathways when GH is released therefore a mild state of Ketosis can be achieved, even with higher carbs, for GH productions will aid fat-loss. (keep in mind, I am not asking you for scientific studies and a trade off of citations either, because I know it's more time consuming then anything)


Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Taking oatmeal 1 hour before workout is NOT doing it on an empty stomach, and factually, using WHEY that digests in around 1.5 hours is not a good idea.

You're right, in that I don't work out on an empty stomach. I was referring to the fact that it hasn't stopped me from taking a post-workout shake with high-GI carbs, is all.

As for the whey, I think the 1.5 hour digestion is based on taking whey alone. Consuming it with the oatmeal should slow digestion. I also include a tablespoon of oil.

NOT true at all, if you see the information about the release of all different fat-burning hormones while working out on an empty stomach, hence why I brought up GH, IGF-1 etc...

Perhaps. For myself, for my workout, I'm much more concerned about preventing muscle catabolism, than any fat-burning effects during the workout.

What is your definition of intervals for cardio? Also, "fat-burning-zone" cardio?

By "fat burning zone" cardio, I mean the typical low-intensity, usually specified as something like 65% of maximum HR.

My intervals currently consist of about 5 minutes of warmup, followed by alternating periods of 30 seconds maximum effort, 60 seconds low effort. Currently that means walking/jogging for about 5 minutes, then alternating periods of sprints and walking. Total time is 15 minutes if after workout, and 25 minutes when done alone.

AGAIN a false statement, you have to see that the liver shuts down the pentose pathways when GH is released therefore a mild state of Ketosis can be achieved, even with higher carbs, for GH productions will aid fat-loss. (keep in mind, I am not asking you for scientific studies and a trade off of citations either, because I know it's more time consuming then anything)

Well, to be honest this is something I picked up from statements by Lyle Mcdonald, and it ties into my use of a pre-workout meal. I think his relevant quote was:

On top of which, ask yourself the following: which is more important, a
miniscule elevation in some hormone, or having the nutrients (from a
pre-workout meal) to support training and recovery. I'll go with the
nutrients every day of teh week. This is where most of these moronic GH
raising strategies fail, they tend to require that one go without eating
for some period of time. Depriving your body of the necessary nutrients
for growth and trainign is no way to make progress.


http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=6837becefbdb42cf,18&start=0

 

[M56M]

BUMP...very interested in this topic...

 

[Mr.X]

You're right, in that I don't work out on an empty stomach. I was referring to the fact that it hasn't stopped me from taking a post-workout shake with high-GI carbs, is all.

As for the whey, I think the 1.5 hour digestion is based on taking whey alone. Consuming it with the oatmeal should slow digestion. I also include a tablespoon of oil.



Perhaps. For myself, for my workout, I'm much more concerned about preventing muscle catabolism, than any fat-burning effects during the workout.



By "fat burning zone" cardio, I mean the typical low-intensity, usually specified as something like 65% of maximum HR.

My intervals currently consist of about 5 minutes of warmup, followed by alternating periods of 30 seconds maximum effort, 60 seconds low effort. Currently that means walking/jogging for about 5 minutes, then alternating periods of sprints and walking. Total time is 15 minutes if after workout, and 25 minutes when done alone.



Well, to be honest this is something I picked up from statements by Lyle Mcdonald, and it ties into my use of a pre-workout meal. I think his relevant quote was:

On top of which, ask yourself the following: which is more important, a
miniscule elevation in some hormone, or having the nutrients (from a
pre-workout meal) to support training and recovery. I'll go with the
nutrients every day of teh week. This is where most of these moronic GH
raising strategies fail, they tend to require that one go without eating
for some period of time. Depriving your body of the necessary nutrients
for growth and trainign is no way to make progress.


http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=6837becefbdb42cf,18&start=0

You know, I am not going to quote anything again. Here is a simple run down of why you would have post-workout nutrition with consentual pre-workout empty stomach:

The release of GH and IGF-1, and elevation in base testosterone level during the workout on an empty stomach is great but the empty stomach workout, in fact, is in some ways catabolic. Yet, look at it this way, the post-workout nutrition (i.e. protein + high-gi carbs) will elevate insulin and AA levels, therefore, driving the combo of GH/insulin/AA elevation/IGF-1 and increased testosterone production home. This is NOT true for all people, but for majority, empty stomach workouts are not only aidfull to training, but also to overall fat-loss, in my view.

I read the website you posted: The problem not faced there, is simple; the factor of insulin post workout and AA elavation post workout.

Until this is adequately addressed, I do not see a real solution being conclusive.

Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Fair enough.

As an aside, I hope you don't take any offense at some of these discussions. I readily admit I'm no more than a beginner at this stuff, and that you obviously have far greater experience.

I have tried to research many of these topics, and tried to apply them to my own routines and training, with varying degrees of success. But that in no way makes me an expert. If better information is available, I want to try and incorporate it myself.