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Post workout diet

oso0960

New member
When I was bulking, I would immediately drink a protein drink with dextrose/maltodextrin. I am now dieting and my post workout drink is about 20 mins afterwards containing oatmeal instead of the malto/dex. I can't stand soggy oats so i wait until I'm home.. Anyway I'm wondering if I should continue to drink the oats or switch back to the malto/dex combo?

*I know some of you might say something about WMS but before I heard about it I bought these huge malto and dex tubs that I don't want to waste lol.
 
There is no evidence that the sharp insulin spike from sugars PWO gives ANY more anabolic growth than a moderate spike from proteins alone.

Personally I would opt for whey iso/ BCAA/ Glutamine. Waxy Maize is a useful addidion. It doesnt create an insulin spike but is great for reglycogenating depleted muscles fast.

PS - powdered oats mix in a shaker instantly.
 
i didn't know there is no evidence it does. I actually didn't think of the shaker. I enjoy milk rather than water and yogurt so the oats don't fall to the bottom (my blender can't completely powderize the oats). Maybe I'll just have to get over it. thanks.
 
There is no evidence that the sharp insulin spike from sugars PWO gives ANY more anabolic growth than a moderate spike from proteins alone.

Personally I would opt for whey iso/ BCAA/ Glutamine. Waxy Maize is a useful addidion. It doesnt create an insulin spike but is great for reglycogenating depleted muscles fast.

PS - powdered oats mix in a shaker instantly.

I have not noticed a decrease in recovery since dropping high GI carbs pwo.

oso - I would sip bcaas (10-20g) during training then have a whey iso shake immediately pwo. 30-40 minutes later (or sooner) have your next planned meal. When cutting you want to control insulin as much as possible. Even pwo imo.
 
I have not noticed a decrease in recovery since dropping high GI carbs pwo.

oso - I would sip bcaas (10-20g) during training then have a whey iso shake immediately pwo. 30-40 minutes later (or sooner) have your next planned meal. When cutting you want to control insulin as much as possible. Even pwo imo.

+1

SL - Would you add in the WM PWO for recovery? Its my understanding that WM has a negligible Insulin response
 
+1

SL - Would you add in the WM PWO for recovery? Its my understanding that WM has a negligible Insulin response

Personally no. unless I needed the extra Kcal i would not worry about wms pwo. I used to be a big fan of WMS, and I think it's a great product, but my veiws on pwo nutrition have drastically changed. This is written with the endomorph in mind, but a lot of this can be applied to everyone.....


In order for a cell to acquire nutrients to use in energy production, the nutrients must be transported across the cell’s membrane. The hormone insulin is used to activate the transportation of nutrients into cells and is considered the “storage” hormone. Insulin secretion causes the uptake of amino acids, free fatty acids, and especially glucose to be
increased.

When one ingests carbohydrates, their blood glucose level, also referred to as their blood sugar level, is elevated, which causes insulin to be secreted. It is insulin’s job to return the blood glucose level back to a normal, homeostatic range.

When insulin is secreted, the breakdown of stored nutrients (glycolysis, lipolysis etc.) is turned off and the storage of nutrients is turned on. It would be counterproductive
to breakdown stored glycogen to obtain glucose when glucose has just been ingested and is now in the bloodstream. This fact is important because when insulin is secreted, fat breakdown and oxidation is turned off! Therefore when one wants to increase fat oxidation to its fullest, insulin secretion needs to be limited.

The amount of insulin needed to return blood glucose levels back to normal after ingesting a given amount of glucose is called insulin sensitivity. Individuals have differing insulin sensitivities based mainly on their diet, activity level, and genetic factors. In most cases, an ectomorph and mesomorph are more insulin sensitive than endomorphs; this is one of the primary factors that cause endomorphs to gain fat more easily than ectomorphs and mesomorphs. An endomorph will need to secrete more insulin to shuttle a given amount of glucose into cells and therefore fat oxidation will be halted for longer than an ectomorph or mesomorph. Therefore, an endomorph needs to
pay more attention to insulin secretion in order to keep gains lean.

The body does not like it when glucose is floating around in the blood stream, so after a meal the body increases the uptake and oxidation of glucose to get rid of it. Over time, consistently elevated blood glucose levels can lead to cells becoming insensitive to insulin or insulin resistant, meaning more insulin most be secreted to return blood glucose levels to normal and therefore fat oxidation is blunted longer If endomorphs must secrete more insulin to return blood glucose levels to normal, then they are at a disadvantage when its comes to staying lean while bulking because fat oxidation will be turned off longer for them than an ectomorph or mesomorph
and there is a greater chance for them to become more insulin resistant.

Before we continue I want to point out why there is great emphasis placed on muscle glycogen levels. Building new muscle proteins and adding inches to your arms is not a priority to the body. The body will not create new muscle proteins when it senses it is in need of energy. When muscle has a lot of glycogen, the body senses it has enough “extra” energy and can build new muscle proteins effectively. If muscle glycogen levels
are depleted, the body must replete glycogen stores in addition to increasing protein synthesis, both of which require energy and nutrients. Therefore, when gaining muscle is
your goal, you want to have adequate muscle glycogen stores so more energy can be focused on protein synthesis. Now this is an isolated examination of muscle growth because there are many other factors besides glycogen stores that govern whether one
gains muscle or not. Let’s take a deeper look at the metabolic factors affecting glucose
uptake.

Insulin promotes glucose uptake through the synthesis and translocation of the GLUT-4 glucose transporter, found on skeletal and cardiac muscle cells and adipocytes.
In the absence of insulin, the GLUT-4 transporters lay under the cell’s surface. When insulin is secreted, the GLUT-4 transporter translocates to the cell’s surface allowing glucose to enter into the cell. There are other glucose transporters, but the GLUT-4 transporter is our primary concern. Enzymes are protein molecules that catalyze (speed up) metabolic reactions. In the case of glucose uptake, there are two we will examine: hexokinase and glucokinase.

The enzyme hexokinase is found in skeletal muscle and promotes glucose uptake independently of blood glucose levels. Hexokinase has a high affinity for glucose, which allows muscle to take up glucose from the blood even when blood glucose levels are low. Once the muscle has the glucose, it keeps it for itself and the muscle does not release glucose back into the bloodstream. Insulin secretion further enhances glucose uptake in addition to hexokinase’s actions. The enzyme glucokinase is found in the liver and is activated when blood glucose levels are increased. Contrast to skeletal muscle, the liver is in service to all other cells of the body, so when it senses other cells need glucose it releases glucose and sends it to the other cells. Skeletal muscle holds on to its glucose for itself but the liver releases its stored glucose for other cells to use when they need it. Hexokinase is basically acting all the time to give muscle glucose but glucokinase is only acting in the presence of high blood glucose levels. What does all of this mean? It means that you do not need to jack insulin through the roof for your muscles to get glucose! In fact, it gets even better.

Exercise, especially resistance training, has been shown to increase GLUT-4 translocation on skeletal muscle in the absence of insulin, meaning after your lift weights you do not need insulin for your muscles to uptake glucose. While insulin will certainly enhance the anabolic response of a meal post workout, slamming 100 grams of dextrose (pure glucose) is not needed since skeletal muscle is already able to uptake glucose in the absence of insulin after a workout. Increasing the glucose content of skeletal muscle (in the form of glycogen) is beneficial for gaining muscle, but remember that GLUT-4 transporters also exist on fat cells and therefore insulin secretion promotes the storage of glucose in both skeletal muscle and fat cells. Therefore, one needs to increase the storage of glucose in skeletal muscle and decrease the storage of glucose in fat cells; this can be done by consuming low glycemic carbohydrates such as oatmeal post-workout instead of high glycemic carbs like dextrose.

In summary, it is not necessary to jack blood glucose and insulin levels through the roof in order to replenish glycogen and gain muscle. Skeletal muscle is able to uptake glucose whenever it needs it. In addition, skeletal muscle is primed to uptake glucose after exercise. By controlling your insulin levels you can gain lean mass while keeping fat gains to a minimum.
 
What a great post bro, thanks. Thats worth a sticky...

So in summary

-Glycogenation in skeletal muscles powers anabolism. Low levels of glycogen can limit anabolism.
-PWO we do not need insulin to reglycogenate skeletal muscle
-GLUT-4 transporters exist in fat cells as well as muscle - low GI carbs (ie oatmeal) PWO limit fat storage and High GI can lead to storage in fat cells.


In which case oatmeal probably is the best thing to have PWO whilst cutting, as it limits fats storage and is reasonably effective for glycogenation (which in turn helps to build muscle).

On a bulker, WM would be the ideal choice as the fast and high levels of glycogenation will aid anabolism, but potentially lead to some fat storage as well.

Thanks Bro, im cutting but have been using WM. Think ill replace it imemdiately with oats.
 
There are so many factors that come into play. Extreme levels of high gi carbs will likely cause fat spillover imo. Unless you are a high level athlete training 5 hours a day you will not deplete glycogen stores enough to warrant mega doses of high gi cho. Most guys barely train 5 hours a week lol. I think the supplement industry is to blame for the pwo fad. If you are eating moderate carbs throughout the day then a low gi starchy carb pwo is all you need imo. I prefer oats, blueberries, skim, and a scoop of whey. This is after I drink a whey iso shake immediately pwo.
 
In general i think we need a stickie explaining the insulin issues SL laid out.

And then expand on the issue of insulin resistance (opposite of insulin sensitivity) and how it can absolutely wreck someone's fat loss goals. With high insulin resistance you can gain fat on a calorie deficit and be absolutely frustrated beyond belief. Aside from killing our motivation it can also cause type 2 diabetes.

It's the so called "Western Diet" that's causing this. In general, especially americans, eat too many highly processed "food-like" products instead of actual food. We are realizing that the industrialization of food is killing us.

I better stop before i get on a rant. This is a great topic to be discussing in the diet forum.
 
OB

Any more info in insulin resistance? Any tips on controling insulin and manipulating it?

I'm currently working on something that's WAY outside of the BB mainstream. It's called Intermittent Fasting.

On off or cardio only days i do not eat until 1PM and i stop eating at 9PM. For my diet i have 2 cardio only days back to back (wed and thur) so that means for thur a total fasting time of 16 hours and a feeding window of 8 hours. I also fasted this sunday after the carbup.

I've been doing this for 2 weeks now, weight is down a net of 7 lbs (some water because of ketosis) but my core lifts are going up. And i'm not on cycle either.

Based on my research, it appears that the whole 6 meals a day or "eat every 2 or 3 hours" is not ideal for cutting fat. Most likely the 6 meals a day fad came out of bulking in order to get more calories in. Probably when dieting down, those same guys went nuts if they tried to space out their eating frequency.

The reason why 6 meals a day seems to work is because it forces planning and those that implement it correctly end up meeting their calorie deficit. In other words it has nothing to do with increased metabolism but rather of keeping people honest in maintaining a negative energy balance.

The problem with 6 meals a day is this: the body never leaves the fed state and cells are exposed to insulin more often. It takes the body 3 hours to digest food. These 3 hours are called the fed state. Digestion is taking place releasing glucose into the blood and the pancreas responds with releasing insulin. So with this protocol, cells are constantly exposed to insulin. What can cause cells to become insulin resistant? Too much exposure to insulin.

This goes on for 3 hours. After the 3 hours mark, its called the post absorptive state. During this state blood sugar levels are baseline, no insulin is out there, and the body is running off of stored energy. IE, cells are getting a break from insulin.

The post absorptive state lasts until about hour 12. Then the fasting state begins. The fasting state lasts for about 48 hours. After 48 hours, the starvation state begins.

Not until the starvation state, after 2 days, does the metabolism begin to "slow down".

Now that might dispel the metabolism question but everyone still freaks out thinking they are losing muscle if they don't eat every 3 hours. Well, fasting might result in a little short term muscle loss, however, the longer term results seem to be increased muscle mass. Most likely this is the result of some seriously increased insulin sensitivity.

Here is a good place to get started on these topics.

Part 1: What Happens To Your Body When You Fast? - Energy Production | Life Spotlight - No BS Fitness, Health and Living
 
SL - Thanks, I'm going to buy some BCAA's..I've heard nothing but positive feedback on them. Also very informative post. Everything I've read that has anything to do with PWO nutrition stresses high GI carbs.


OB - Also a great post. I'll admit, I'm one of those people that freak out if I ate my meal 4 hours after after the previous one. I never would have guessed that any period of fasting would be beneficial to muscle gains. I have a question though: what do you think about the 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass? Is it necessary? Do you still reach that number on your fasting days? (I have only read the first page of the link so far)

I believe both ideas should be stickied since there is too much info out there promoting the opposite.
 
SL - Thanks, I'm going to buy some BCAA's..I've heard nothing but positive feedback on them. Also very informative post. Everything I've read that has anything to do with PWO nutrition stresses high GI carbs.


OB - Also a great post. I'll admit, I'm one of those people that freak out if I ate my meal 4 hours after after the previous one. I never would have guessed that any period of fasting would be beneficial to muscle gains. I have a question though: what do you think about the 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass? Is it necessary? Do you still reach that number on your fasting days? (I have only read the first page of the link so far)

I believe both ideas should be stickied since there is too much info out there promoting the opposite.

I'm still undecided about the protein. I'm currently cutting and only taking in .8 grams per bodyweight. This seems to be working great. I'm beginning to think that excessive amounts (e.g. 2 x bodyweight) are not necessary for the average trainee and 1 x bodyweight is probably a good number.

On the fasting days i still get in the necessary protein. You don't have to reduce calories in any way because of the fast. It's just altering the time window in which you eat. So you can eat the same amount, just in a smaller window of time.

As you can imagine this mimics what we are designed to do. For 2.5 million years we most likely hunted all day and then had a large feeding. Sometimes going a full day without eating depending on how the hunting went. It's interesting that metabolic slowdown doesn't take place until the 3rd day of not eating. This is probably the largest indicator of how our ancestors fed.

Although don't believe anything i'm saying, i'm experimenting with this myself. I'm not endorsing it's use, at least not yet.

Good luck!
 
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