Post-Cycle Help Is Here

[c3bodybuilding]

Thats an unreal price! So, would you now recommend those 2, along with lets say a zma of sorts for post cycle therapy? Also would you use the unleashed during a cycle as well? It seems like it would be a smart thing to do.

I want to stay far away from clomid. The one time I tried it, I was very depressed. I was crying over nothing sometimes, and felt down. I barely wanted to get up, let alone train and eat.

 

[Juice Authority]

Okay, I've been bombarded with e-mails about this, so I figured I'd just post this for anyone who's interested.

The free T formula (Avenacosides, Muara Puama, Nettles, Xanthoparmilia, etc) "Unleashed" and the "Post-Cycle" formula (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc) are now available. But they're only taking phone orders. 1-800-343-1803

Judging from the prototype, the quality is top notch and the price is comparable to BAC without the capping hassle. They also have a pro-thyroid product called ZIP! which looks like it would make a nice stack with "Thermorexin". I'd be curious to hear everyone's experiences.

I wonder how this combo would fare for hpta recovery after a heavier 8-12 week androgen-based cycle?? This may work fine with your short-cycle theory but I'm somewhat skeptical about relying on these products alone after a longer cycle.

We all know how much you hate clomid and I'm not particularly a big fan of it either especially after this last debacle but there really is no other better "proven" alternative. These products may very well be good supplements to take in conjunction with HCG and Anti-e's but to recommend that someone take this "post-cycle formula" in lieu of clomid, Nolva and HCG for post-cycle therapy is irresponsible advice IMO unless you post up some concrete evidence that clearly shows this formula speeding up the hpta recovery process.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Juice, I'm going to give you karma for that. Instead of starting up a flame fest, you actually added something valuble to the thread, and asked some honest questions.

With that, I'll ask you a question as well. A lot of people are starting to rely on nolva for post cycle therapy. Are you in that group? If so, how has it worked for you, and at what dosages.

 

[Juice Authority]

Juice, I'm going to give you karma for that. Instead of starting up a flame fest, you actually added something valuble to the thread, and asked some honest questions.

With that, I'll ask you a question as well. A lot of people are starting to rely on nolva for post cycle therapy. Are you in that group? If so, how has it worked for you, and at what dosages.

Actually I am and here's why...I also posted this on another thread and I believe the information is credible. I plan on taking both Nolva and Clomid together post-cycle.

Ideal of course would be to run some prov or Arimidex the last week of a cycle and the first week after a cycle to kickstart your Nolva therapy, but its not necessary at all. Far more important in bringing natural test back is HCG. NOw that's why Nolva is so important as well, HCG will form estrogen in manners other than by aromatase, which arimidex or Prov cannot block, but Nolva or clomid can ...

Clomid and Nolva are essentially similar compounds. Both triphenylethylenes, both muild estrogens and both substrates for the estrogen receptor, not the aromatase enzyme.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?threadid=113118&highlight=Sane+Cycle

The choice of a Tamoxifen/clomiphene/spironolactone combination

The choice for a tamoxifen/Clomiphene combo is primarily because of two factors. Only one relevant study (1) came up as far as recovery after a stack of products (testosterone and nandrolone) was used for twelve weeks, utilized HCG and both clomiphene and tamoxifen to achieve a complete recovery of the HPTA to acceptable levels in 45 days. The second reason is the raging war over which is the better post-cycle drug, clomiphene or tamoxifen has lead to several conclusions. The first is that while 150 mg of clomiphene and 20 mg of tamoxifen have lead to roughly a similar increase in LH levels (17) , but that with the high dosing of clomiphene over time there are certain disadvantages. Such as that it may damage eyesight and may act as a weak estrogen (18) in undesirable places (like the pituitary). So using tamoxifen alongside it will allow us to lower the dose and decrease the chance of these side-effects and add the distinct benefit that Tamoxifen (being the stronger of the two) will prevent the clomiphene from exerting any much influence at the pituitary, and that it will increase LH responsiveness to GnRH (17) where Clomiphene does not. Clomiphene is still used as it seems to offer other advantages, such as an increase in SHBG (19), which may seem like a bad thing at first, but which may decrease androgen-related negative feedback and may thus be in our advantage.

Regardless of the final outcome I feel I have settled the dispute, at least in my own head. Why bother figuring it out when we can use both, limit any negative effects and reap the proven benefits of full recovery ? I used to run tamoxifen slightly less long than clomiphene, but given the suppressive effects of the latter at the pituitary, I later decided it wiser to continue running tamoxifen as long as the clomiphene.

 

[Juice Authority]

With that, I'll ask you a question as well. A lot of people are starting to rely on nolva for post cycle therapy. Are you in that group? If so, how has it worked for you, and at what dosages.

Ideally you want both your anti-estrogen treatment and your HCG to start near the beginning of your last week.

Week 1-10 : cycle

Week 10,11,12 : HCG, but try a less frequent pattern. Some people react better to a less frequent dosing, others to more frequent dosing. Instead of 500 ed, I plan to go for 1500IU's every 3 days, or 3000/3000/1500/1500 every 5 days

Then I'm going to start the Nolva week 10 at a steady 20 mg and continue to run it until I come off the clomid. Nolva offers the distinct advantage of sensitizing LH response to GnRH.

I'll start the clomid at a dose of 150 mg for weeks 12 and 13, then lower it to 100 for weeks 14 and 15.

 

[40butpumpin]

Avenacosides...A, B, or both? how many milligrams is it? this is the active ingredient of Avena Sativa, that def. sounds interesting. Nelson, you've personally tried the Free T product? Man that sounds like some serious morning wood fuel!

 

[Nelson Montana]

For long (over 12 week) cycles I always recommend HCG. But realize, HCG desensitizes leydig cells, so in a way it's suppessive. Sooner or later your HPTA has to take over on its own and that's where the supps can help. But nothing works as well "cosmetically as HCG since it fills your balls up, if needed.

If you're doing a high androgen cycle and are prone to gyno, I'd say keep some proviron or a-dex on hand, just in case. But you may not need it.

Juice, you gotta let go of line of thought that Clomid is "proven". I don't want this to turn into another Clomid thread but the research on Clomid is very scketchy and as you found out yourself, the shit didn't work for you. (Welcome to the club) Clomid is not an aromatase inhibitor and that's the problem. For some, it just increases estrogen, as too many bros have found out when they wind up crying at the end of episodes of "Sex In The City."

C3: "Post-Cycle" also has milk thistle and r-ala and lecithin for you liver, plus maca and epimedium for libido and cndium for erectile function so there's lots of stuff beyond the estrogen managment you can use. It also has 15 mgs of zinc so you wont need ZMA. Too much zinc is worse than too little.

 

[lartinos]

Sounds like an awesome product!

 

[Juice Authority]

Juice, you gotta let go of line of thought that Clomid is "proven". I don't want this to turn into another Clomid thread but the research on Clomid is very scketchy and as you found out yourself, the shit didn't work for you. (Welcome to the club) Clomid is not an aromatase inhibitor and that's the problem. For some, it just increases estrogen, as too many bros have found out when they wind up crying at the end of episodes of "Sex In The City."

Nelson -

I crashed because I used too much gear over an extended period of time. End of story. Yes, clomid has some fucked up side effects (i.e. depression, decreased libido, blurred vision, etc..) but it does work for hpta recovery. Are there better alternatives? Well, Nolva will at least reduce the amount of clomid you need to take post-cycle and HCG will better prepare the testis for clomid therapy but there hasn't been anything introduced today that clearly shows a rise in circulating LH levels, an increase in testosterone and estradiol levels and an increase in FSH levels as clomid.

 

[Juice Authority]

Nelson -

Here are some studies you may not have seen that conclusively prove my point...(I haven't posted these before)...

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.